maxxy maxxy

Discuss: UB's noob factor, needs balance

Discuss: UB's noob factor, needs balance

Hi,

UB needs some balance work. This demigod has a complete lack of skill to it. Currently, there are 2 viable builds:

1 - Turn on ooze, charge in guns blazing.

2 - Spit on target, charge in guns blazing.

I know that there are better/worse players of UB, but in essence, it is all exactly the same. I think that UB is definitely one of the only demigods that can go toe to toe vs all other demigods (maybe only towers rook, unless you stack armor) with complete security that you are going to melt face. Just stack health/attack speed and you are ready to go. Unless I have a sureshot contingency plan, I will NEVER attack a UB. When I do play UB, I find him super easy to play. He has the most armor/health/speed/dps at lvl 1 compared to all other demigods. He can stun/slow you and outspeed you. Add in the innate attack speed buff + ooze that slows your attack speed or the insane DPS from spit and what is left?

This demigod needs a definite bonk from the nerf stick. I know this game doesn't revolve around 1v1 duels, but give other people a fighting chance. At the moment, a health stacked UB is basically > * in 1v1 (again, in MOST cases). Just run away...

14,487 views 43 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting maxxy, reply 14

The whole point of competitive gaming is to show who's best at the game, not who is best and doing arbitrarily complicated tasks in order to play the game.Street fighter, WoW, Starcraft... the list goes on.

Street Fighter really doesn't have super hard execution requirements (at least in SSF2THDR; SF4 decided to add a bunch of arbitrary 1 frame links in, but because moves deal less damage the bigger your combo is, it isn't strictly necessary to do those absurd combos, it just makes you deal a lot more damage; high skill can still beat it.) And most people (some people are crazy) recognize that it is a good thing that SC2 will have easier execution requirements and some of the more modern refinements to RTS's (though from gameplay videos, they still don't have an "auto-build this" button, which would be nice.)


KenFlowchart.jpg

Err.... how does this counter anything he said? SF4 might not be a great competitive game, but showing it isn't by posting a joke flowchart about how noobs play isn't getting you any credibility (MvC2 is kind of an accidentally good game; it's really nutty how all the glitches come together to make the game better than it is without them).

Reply #27 Top

When I do play UB, I find him super easy to play.

Look dude, anyone can go pick up a demigod and go "BAM! HIT WITH STICK! YOU DIE!", just as you can do that same action with virtually any game. Just because you personally find it easy to play (which depends entirely on who you were playing/ what strat they used/ were they bots?) doesn't mean that the character is necessarily overpowered. 

The grand strategy of this game is not like other games. the game is fundamentally different in scope than most any other game, thats how it is. Asking the company to take this fascinating micro focused game they have created and turn it into a mortal kombat lookalike is just stupid, if you want to play that game, go play that game. This game focuses on micro movement, field advantage, and a power level that gradually gathers momentum as the game goes on. Other games focus on key combinations/ reaction time/ steep skill curves and thats FINE, but it ISN'T Demigod. So frankly, you can shove your complaints where the sun doesn't shine, I like this game, It's what I want. Dont expect them to change its nature to suit your desires.


Somewhat-less-than-respectfully yours,

Cilice

Reply #28 Top

People here are overlooking one important drawback of the UB... Because the UB has nothing but cookie cutter builds - the real choice is spit vs ooze - it is very possible to counter the UB because every one knows what you are up to. Ok, so you stand a decent chance in a toe to toe with other DGs... But you have absolutely no tricks up your sleeve! Other DGs can lure you into a trap with mines, shatters, minions and more such things. The UB has nothing of the like. Take away his raw power to scare off other DGs and you leave the UB with nothing.

have you read the description of the UB? He is nothing if not a beast of terror and they accomplish just that by making him powerful. Take that away and the UB will set off the 'easy kill alarm' on every decent player out there.

Reply #29 Top

UB is too powerful during low levels, his base higher speed makes it unlikely that you will get away even if you stack speed items, his damage is certainly not bad, and he isn't the least bit fragile.

He can two shot torchbearer at lvl 4 with spit, an easily spammable ability.  At the very least you force them off your lane unless they are a general with priests and a spammable defensive ability. Something that many people don't seem to realise is that many of the so called hard counters to spit don't actually work.  All the purification items have massive cooldowns and force you to give up your valuable favor slot or cost a lot of money.  Shield has a 30 second recast making it useless for this purpose.  At the end of Shield UB can just cast it again  The only decent counter is bramble shield and heal.

For ooze UB's, you basically gain massive dps and have an aura of lowered attack speed on enemies for the cost of hp.  However the attack speed debuff is significant enough that chances are that you actually lower the damage you take except against characters that rely on special attack damage, mainly torchbearer who you eat for breakfast.  If that wasn't enough, you can more than make up for the health loss with a two second stun and health drain that you get for 1 skill point.

UB also has some of the best passive abilities in the game. Movement and attack speed buff.  Passive snare.  Ub's base higher movement speed also means that his speed passives are more effective than stacking speed items on other characters.  My favorite passive of his is Acclimation which is at the end of his passive movement and attack speed buff line.  It causes him to take 40% less damage for 5 seconds after taking more than 500 damage.  Basically any ability end game will trigger this.  A crit from an auto attack will trigger this unless you stack armor quite a bit.

His least used ability is probably bestial wrath, which increases his damage significantly but costs plenty of mana and has a long casting time.  Honestly this ability is not bad at all, its just not up to the higher standards created by the rest of UBs obscene abilities.  The increase in damage is significant and in the right item build it could probably melt face almost as hard as ooze or spit builds.

UB is definately in the ranks of Erebus, Sedna, and Regulus, but he is probably the easiest to play out of those 4.  Every single ability of UB is good when you use it whenever it comes off cooldown except for Bestial wrath which is almost never used anyways.

Somewhat-less-than-respectfully yours,

Kevin

Reply #30 Top

As an occasional UB player, I've played against some pretty bad beasts.  Even n00bs find a way to make beast terrible.

That having been said, he's probably my strongest demigod.  Given an equal skill level I feel like he definitely has an overall advantage over most demigods.  And he is quite easy to learn how to dominate with. But he is not unkillable- that would be sedna with bugged priests.

Reply #31 Top

Kawazu- Your point is taken good sir, UB is powerful, his abilites are powerful, but I will refer you to shurdus' post above yours, his point remains.


The UB is essentially an assasination powerhouse, mostly in melee range. but he cant engage in trickery like Erebus, he cant Range like Regulus, he cant have support units, tower farms, significant survival abilities. His only attributes are his speed, his visciousness and (if you itemize for it) his ability to tank damage. Granted, your average player is going to die to UB pretty quickly, but UB can be countered, it just requires a different strategy than you would use against other demigods. His unique nature is his greatest attribute, because your average player is going to go to the forums to complain about him rather than research him and find out how to beat him.

A spit UB is a powerful hit and run unit, which means you have to outlast him. If you cower near your towers and let him dominate the lane, he will keep you locked down forever, but if you grab your monk minions and go out and fight him he will give up the lane and back out. use this to force him out of important areas, clear areas where you can farm creeps, capture flags he was using against you. Sure, hes gonna hit and run. ALOT. but people overestimate the amount of mana a UB has. Your average UB is gonna have a vlemish faceguard for mana items and that might well be it. that gives him 4 spits, maybe 5. so keep your monks around, have a healing teammate keep you on the field, or just BUY SOME CHEAP HEALTH POTS. and while hes running back to base useless, you will be controlling the field and sieging his base.

An Ooze UB is the EXACT OPPOSITE. His only power comes from melee range, and in that range HE WILL DESTROY YOU! Get a ranged teammate to fight him if you arent one. Kite him. it will work. He has a LOT of health and a LOT of regen, but those are his ONLY stats. you can play with him FOREVER if you stay out of range. his siege power is weak. Stay near towers for security, or rooks tower farms. fight him using erebus or mines regulus, it will take some time to push him out of your way, but thats to be expected, hes a TANK. the single most common mistake i see people make against me (ooze ub) is they weaken me with harrassement but then they GO FOR THE KILL. if you try to finish off an ooze ub YOU WILL DIE. I can take you from full HP to dead faster than you can take me from 1/4 health to dead if you engage at melee distance. so you have to KEEP HARASSING. you wont kill an ooze ub often, but you can harass until he has to leave the lane. You level up, get money, and he doesnt. As an ooze UB MONEY IS NECESSARY! if by level 7 i dont have 5k HP i am SCREWED. so you just keep harassing, push me out of places where i can farm, and never FEED ME A KILL. You will romp all over my sorry ass past level 8.

 

UB is controllable, most people just dont. Most people want him nerfed, if his primary attributes get nerfed, he will no longer be able to effectively fight ANYONE. he doesnt have the versatility to survive a nerf to any of his major abilities. so suck it up, do your homework, and beat him back like a rabid dog. 

 

Sort-of-respectfully yours,

Cilice

Reply #32 Top

You keep assuming that you are either a general who has monks or that you have a competent regulus for an ally...
I play Oak so UB is almost never a problem unless he gets fed too much, but for other characters it is an impossible battle unless you have a friend help out, which is a battle you should always win.

Torchbearer for instance will die quickly to either build without really doing anything in return.  Ooze UB has close to 6k hp, a good regen and insane speed.  Spit UB has a hit and run attack that does close to half your base health by lvl 4.  5 spit attacks is more than enough to kill him even end game.

Also potions are never a good counter to spit.  Using gold to buy 1 use items puts you down the hole later in the game, when your opponent will be geared up.

As for ranged harassment, you already said he has high hp and regen, so ranged harassment is pointless unless you are regulus or you waste significant mana in trying to out him.  Either way he still has alot of hp  If you go down this route you will also never kill him, he's the second fastest character in the game and one of the most durable.

Im not saying that it is impossible to win with some characters, it's just makes the game much harder than playing UB and melting face by using your abilities whenever they come on recast.

Im also not arguing that UB is OP, only that he is easy to play.

I don't actually want to nerf any of his abilites.  Honestly he's fine the way he is.  The only thing that really bugs me about him is that his base speed is 6.3 making all speed enhancing items and skills more effective, meaning you can't out run him unless you play sedna or stack speed on erebus.

Reply #33 Top

I play UB...and I personally think he is fine.  Depending how u do his build, he can be a beast...and ISN'T that the point of the game, to be more powerful/better than the other team.  You can find one thing on any Demigod that makes them "overpowered", but isn't that part of the game, to have pros and cons? 

I say stop crying, and just play the game.  don't like how "overpowered" a Demigod is, adjust your build so u can handle yourself...

Reply #34 Top

I wanted to clear the air a little on some of what has been discussed here about UB strat.  I for one have played at length with UB and I find that it has far more that the "2 cookie cutter" builds discussed here.  In fact, I rarely use spit.  I don't think it's worth it and I've found better ways to work without it as UB.  I find that wrath is an underused skill that scales far better than UB's other "capped" skills into the late game.  Wrath benifits from +damage +lifesteal and +atk spd.  Spit and ooze do not.

 

To the OP and some others that have followed I think the deepest flaw in your strategy is thinking when you enter a game you are going to have a "build" and do "such and such" with it.  One of the reasons I win so often with the UB is because I don't have a plan beforehand.  On certain maps I will even wait to buy items before I see what enemy I am facing.  I never spend my first skill or pick favor items until I know which demigods I am up against.

 

I adapt my build to the situation.  Should I itemise speed and control the map and harass.  Should I itemise health regen or armour and tank for my partner.  If I face 3 general type demigods I wait to see if they seem to be using their help alot and pour deep into an ooze/post mortem/lifesteal bulid, If i have two regulus I get a few health items and max my speed and only get wrath as a skill to make some use of mana, if the player likes to run a lot I may get spit or grasp.

 

Might I suggest that the reason you are having trouble with the UB is not because there are "2 builds" but because you aren't taking advantage of the the various counters that Demigod has built into the core of its gameplay.  I am amazed at their depth, and I am by no means an expert.  Just the other day I played a game where I and another UB were loosing sorely but we adjusted our strategy, played the map, held the only gold flag,  never let ourselves risk dying by retreating if we hit 50% and generally avoiding fights altogther.  Sure our base was under siege 90% of the game, sure we were down about 20 kills by the time it ended.  Sure our items weren't as nice and we couldn't stand toe to toe.  But the thing is: we won.  All it took was having more gold and beating the other team to giants.  We figured we could hold that long and in the end it payed off.

 

My point is:  If there are two reg's sniping.  Don't get too hurt.  If a rook is building a tower farm, get more health and armour or even better yet get speed and then control everywhere else the rook is not.  He's slow, he can't tower farm the whole map.  If the UB is going ooze drag out a fight with defense, health, lifesteal, fighting near towers, kiting, blinking items, & avoiding battle.  He can't ooze forever and won't like to go near your towers.  Adjust your play and play to win.

Reply #35 Top

TORCHBEARER IS OP!1!!!1 NERF PLOXX!

HIS FIREBALL CAN BE CAST FROM SOOOOO FAR, AND IF HE GOES FIRE FORM, HE CAN JUST ONE SHOT YOU. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, HE'LL JUST RUN AWAY AND DO IT AGAIN IN 15 SECONDS. YOU'RE GOOD AS DEAD.

 

I hope you found that argument to be stupid and pointless, and I hope you'll take the time to compare it to yours and get the point. Data please. Everything else is secondary.

Reply #38 Top

The best way I've ever seen it phrased:

"The controls and interface for a game shouldn't obstruct play, but enhance it."

The ability to play a game can be broken down into the mind's ability to strategize, evaluate, and react; and the body's ability to perform the desired actions. We'll call these general categories "strategy" and "dexterity". If the amount of dexterity needed to play a game is low, then all of its depth must come from strategy, and vice-versa.

People enjoy different kinds of balances between these two. Fighting game enthusiasts generally appreciate a healthy balance between the two, making it a sort of test of both mind and body. Personally, I find these types of games frustrating, largely because I don't have the dedication to practicing the controls. I prefer fighting games with more simplistic controls, even than Street Fighter--Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur are my games of choice, as any move can be executed without having to press more than one or two buttons at the same time. Are these games less strategic? Less rewarding? Yes and no, depending on the player--but they are my personal taste.

But of course, we aren't talking about fighting games, we're talking about a real-time team-based tactical RPG. This genre tends to introduce a certain degree of inherent complexity; certainly, there are a very large number of factors to be considered at any given instant of the game. I believe it is the common opinion of the community, and indeed apparent in many of the design decisions made by companies that make such games, that the difficulty of such a game should primarily arise from mental difficulties rather than the interface or controls; there are enough factors to be dealt with as it is.

So then, with it established that we should be looking at tactics and strategy from a mental perspective, we should next determine upon what scale strategies should be compared. As any experienced player would tell you, Demigod is very much reliant on judgment; a player must constantly be asking himself, "Will I be able to defeat this enemy in time? Can I hold out for reinforcements? Should I chase him that way? What skills/equipment is my foe using?" and so on. Should the player decide correctly, they are rewarded with power and wealth; incorrectly, with death and defeat.

Therefore, an appropriate scale against which to appraise strategies in Demigod would be from a risk-versus-reward standpoint; that is, strategies higher in risk should generally grant more reward. As an example, assaulting an enemy until they are forced to retreat, and allowing them to do so, rewards the player with briefly unrestricted ability to farm and gain strength; pursuing that foe dangerously close to their tower line to finish them off is much more risky, but if correctly executed, yields a substantially larger experience and gold reward.

It is a logical assumption that more skilled players are more likely to successfully capitalize on high-risk strategies, thereby reaping higher reward, and in addition, more likely to correctly determine their likelyhood of success in a particular risky venture, as well as that strategy's reward. Obviously, some strategies have tremendously high risk and very little reward--for example, trying to rush the enemy's heal crystal at level 3 and "spawn-camp". Therefore, the skilled player can also eliminate strategies that do not yield satisfactory risk-to-reward ratios, and will only employ those that do.

However, the depth of a strategy game can arguably be measured by the size of this "satisfactory strategies" pool; if the pool is too small and too shallow, the game can become largely formulaic. The larger the pool, the more strategies one can choose from, depending on the situation; victory goes to he who correctly identifies which of the multitude of strategies yields the highest return, then executes it to the highest degree; if two players use equally rewarding strategies against one another, the one who executed theirs best should ideally win.

To maintain the balance and "depth" of this pool, all viable strategies should have a roughly equal balance of risk to reward, when all factors are accounted for; some may be better in certain situations than others, but no strategy should be the best in a majority of circumstances. The caveat to this is, situational details might augment this ratio one way or another--a strategy that is high risk against certain Demigods might be low risk against others, yet both yield the same reward. This may seem objectively imbalanced, but this is where the team factor enters the equation: the compensation for having a disadvantage aganist a given Demigod or situation, is to have a teammate who is strong in that area. Because each Demigod has natural areas in which they are strong and others in which they are weak, one must adjust one's team in order to compensate.

This presents the altogether more frustrating problem of relying on teammates to choose their character in the interest of team balance rather than personal taste; however, because this is a human factor and not a game factor, the issue of balance is now largely reliant on skill; that is, if you wish to overcome the strengths of a particular Demigod, either choose your character such that you have an advantage, or play with teammates that will choose a character that compliments the one you want to play, particularly against that Demigod, and vice-versa.

With this treatise established, we can now more clearly assess the balance of Unclean Beast; rephrased in this established terminology, the OP's post suggests that the Unclean Beast gains disproportionately large reward relative to the risk he must undertake; as a result, it takes less skill to successfully exectue these stratagems and reap the same reward as a more-risky stratagem of a different character.

Is this the truth? It's difficult to say. Many have put forth ways of dealing with the beast, but none of these answers appear to be satisfactory to the OP. Perhaps, then, we are not giving sufficient weight to counterstrategies; perhaps it is not that UB's strategies yield too much reward for their risk, but that the UB's opposition has not determined how to make those strategies sufficiently risky as to discourage their use. Perhaps that, then, should be the focus of debate.

Ultimately, I would say the fastest way to determine the balance of the Unclean Beast is to play many, many games using him, and see what beats you and why. If you can develop a counter-strategy to that, do so, and see if that can be foiled. This is a healthy way of developing the strategy of a character; the winner is then determined by who can stay a few steps ahead of their opponent in the game of strategy and counter-strategy, then capitalize on that opportunity. I know it worked for me and my undue hatred of Regulus. ;)

Reply #39 Top

Ooze is nice. If you play it correctly, and itemize right, you can go 1v1 against any demigod and win.

I stack hp and speed:

 

Swift Anklet

Banded

Nimoth

Hauberk

Boots of speed

Groffling

Replace banded armor with godplate, if the game lasts that long

 

Honestly I haven't really needed wand of speed so far. Usually my slots are filled with capture locks, teleport scrolls, and healing potions. No room for wand.

Reply #40 Top

Could I just throw this in here(at the OP) -

Read UB's backstory.

It wouldn't make SENSE for him to be "complex" to play as. Saying his primary battle plan shouldn't be "charge in guns blazing" is essentially like saying Rook shouldn't be bigger than everyone else.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting maxxy, reply 12
Giving you complicated strategies gives you a sense of accomplishment and definitely will make a difference between the noobs and the decent players. You need to be able to advance to SOMEWHERE. Unless you play with friends over comms you have NO WHERE TO ADVANCE TO in this game and this is a bad design flaw. The learning curve is too simple. I would have to say that the learning curve for UB is the simplest of all demigods and I would like this changed. For instance, some demigods are weak in their first five levels (Oak, Sedna, Erebus...) while some are weaker in end game (QoT...). Like SoFFacet said, UB is strong throughout the whole game and scales very, very well. Either buff up the other demigods so they are balanced from level 1 till 20 or give UB an achilles' heal. Just make him a bit more interesting instead of him having 2 cookie cutter builds.

 

I'd argue that QoT is NOT weak end game, what is weak endgame is people not ADJUST to the auto attack scheme rather than ability spam scheme...

 

She needs to be able to spike and wave and shield, and then have mageslayer or another attack buffer and she's as competitive as anyone else... and with Ashkandor (god's forbid) She can crit 4k+

 

She's got to be played at the edge of her range and can't stand toe to toe with UB but *shrug*

Reply #42 Top

Discuss: UB's noob factor, needs balance

it does. noobs need a buff, they have to stop using the same fucking hero every single game and try something different.

IT GETS BORING YOU KNOW!

Reply #43 Top

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR, reply 17

Discuss: UB's noob factor, needs balance
it does. noobs need a buff, they have to stop using the same fucking hero every single game and try something different.

IT GETS BORING YOU KNOW!

:rofl: I think we've all squished so many UB's and Reguli that we've become jaded as to the extent of their playability.