Sorry but I got my information right out of Kerry's mouth during the debates. Yes he put forth a plan to *cover* Americans without health care but nowhere did he come up with were he was going to get the money to pay for it. His fiscal plans fell short of the mark.

The debates you have either a minute and a half or two minutes to put forth information. Certainly not enough time to go into specifics. He did put forth some salient points about what he would be doing different than Bush and asked those who wanted more details to check his website. He went into more detail on the campaign trail, but the details are too boring for entertainment driven media. They gloss over the details and Bush and his campaign used that to paint the candidate Kerry as something that he was not, something they knew could not be palpable to the American public. Their sound bites were better for the evening news.

Reply #30 By: drmiler - 11/20/2004 8:39:46 PM There was more to me voting for Bush besides Kerry's vauge plans.

Reply #32 By: whoman69 - 11/20/2004 9:23:56 PM Sorry but I got my information right out of Kerry's mouth during the debates. Yes he put forth a plan to *cover* Americans without health care but nowhere did he come up with were he was going to get the money to pay for it. His fiscal plans fell short of the mark. The debates you have either a minute and a half or two minutes to put forth information. Certainly not enough time to go into specifics. He did put forth some salient points about what he would be doing different than Bush and asked those who wanted more details to check his website. He went into more detail on the campaign trail, but the details are too boring for entertainment driven media. They gloss over the details and Bush and his campaign used that to paint the candidate Kerry as something that he was not, something they knew could not be palpable to the American public. Their sound bites were better for the evening new

Let me put this to rest for you. The reason I didn't vote for John Kerry is that I consider him to be a traitor! If it was up to me the man wouldn't be allowed to be a dog catcher

As far as ideologies go, MM is not a fringe-leftist. His politics are not ultra-left.

And I am saying that no, MM IS a fringe-leftists. His politics ARE ultra-left.  I'm really surprised you think he's a mainstream liberal. Have you read any of his books? The only thing that keeps him from being completely out there is that he is (obviously) a capitalist. 

Reply #37 By: TaBooTenente - 11/21/2004 1:55:23 AM Again, I'm finding more good takes here than I like to admit. Dr. Miller: I was with you through most of what you said, though I lost you with the traitor comment. Do you really think so? Why?

Why? Because as an active member of the US armed forces he held secret and unauthorized meetings with N Vietnamese officals. This is of his own admitting. And by all rights he is in the wrong with both the constitution and the "uniform code of military justice. According to the UCMJ what he did is considered treason!Check the link, it explains it better. Link

Dr. Miller: I've bookmarked your link and I promise I will explore.

Whoman: Yours, too.

TBT

Actually, 97% of those who now have health insurance would keep the coverage they have under Kerry's plan

I certainly don't need factcheck to tell me what I already know, or interpret for me what I researched for myself. As a matter of fact I wrote them regarding their MISLEADING analysis on the Kerry plan, with substantiation from the actual reports, and they chose NOT to correct it. It is spin, plain and simple. The debate is not over some campaign ad.

Read the reports. In fact, the Lewin Groups report (which I have and have read a number of times) does NOT substantiate this, it in fact says THEY CAN NOT ESTIMATE it accurately due to the vagueness of the Kerry plan.

From the Lewin Group report:

The Kerry plan would “allow every American access to the same health plan members of Congress get today.” A new pool would be added to the current FEHBP to cover “small and large businesses, as well as individuals and families who need affordable health insurance.”
The CHP would participate in the premium rebate program. However, the Kerry plan provides little information on how this would be done, which makes it impossible to estimate its effects accurately.

Fact check is full of BS on this one.

db: so your take is bush's take? kerry's plan is worse than bush's plan? bush just wants to privatise, right?

I'm guessing this was to me?

My biggest objection to the Kerry plan was the increase in Medicaid (an entitlement program) of about 70% (adding an additional 21 million to Medicaid, around 30 million are currently on it) and it's price tag (estimated to be around 553 Billion over 10 years). There were other things I didn't like either, but this was the show stopper. I don't like big government programs, so to me, Kerry's plan was worse. Big government programs means non-discretionary spending and I think we already have too much of it, then again, I don't like paying taxes either.

Bush's plan does a number of things, but the bulk of it is through tax credits to individuals and employers. One of the significant pieces is something called an HSA (Health Savings Account). An HSA is used in conjunction with a high deductible health plan (in actuality the term High Deductible is sort of a misnomer, many current plans have just as high a deductible as the new ones, there are specific design features in the plans that qualify them for use with an HSA). An HSA health plan has significantly LOWER premiums (ex: current plan $300/mo, HSA compatible plan $100/mo). Money is put into an HSA pre-tax and the account is used for qualified medical expenses (which is pretty broad). All funds in the HSA roll over year to year. At retirement age (when Medicare Part A nd Part B kick in), money in the HSA is yours. It can serve as a way to keep from throwing money at insurance companies you'll never see again and instead keep it in your pocket, in the event you have a catastrophic illness, all you pay is the deductible (in most instances, some of the HSA compatible plans don't pay 100% of cost, but neither do most current plans, mine pays 100%).

Other parts of the plan are Medicaid outreach (funds to enroll people that are eligible currently but for some reason not enrolled), Malpractice reform, Patient Bill of Rights, AHP's (Association Health Plans), Health Information Technology funds (electronic claims, payment and records, supposed to reduce admin costs).

Dear Little_Whip:

Two days ago I was certain we were enemies of the soul; then I spent some time reviewing some of your posts and found you to be a courteous, often thoughtful poster.

Right now, though, I'm ready to throw you through the window.

I just signed in this morning, and there's an anonymous post listed, but the message is not there. I have no idea whether or not your response was directed here, or to an earlier message. Nevertheless, your caustic attitude remains posted to my article, so I must respond:

Conservatives: If you care at all about unifying the political divide, if you are honestly concerned about the level of partisanship, you need to understand this: it may be arrogance, it may be tunnel vision, but Democrats do not understand why people voted for George Bush. And we are in disarray. We do not know what to do. Yes: it is arrogance, plain and simple; but that does not make it any easier to correct our position. Liberals: If we still believe in our position, if we still believe that a crucial element of morality in this country is eroding, then we need a new voice. Consider this: John Kerry, like every other liberal (not necessarily party Democrats), wrote off the entire south, along with the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Oklahoma.... We wrote them off, as in, did not try to pick up those votes. Why? If you believe the answer is something other than arrogance, let me know. When a conservative says thay he/she is sick of the label "religious right-wing", or "Rube from Hicksville" or "Redneck" or "Ignorant" or whatever the hell, what do we immediately think as a response?

I hope you've noticed that this is a quote from my original article, Little_Whip. Anyone paying the slightest attention to the world during and after the election should have developed an awareness that people have been throwing labels around. My article was intended to show how these things not only get out of hand, but create a polar, political divide.

Thats a very dangerous attitude to have, but one expressed by many Kerry supporters who readily admitted it. It therefore turned into an anti-Bush movement rather than a true effort to elect a president you felt could actually do a better job. Im sure the Germans who put Hitler in power felt the same, things had gotten so bad in their country that they felt ANYTHING or ANYBODY would be preferable to the status quo.

I'm sure you recognize your own quote, Little_Whip. Your reference to the NAZI regime is not only as absurd, offensive and hyperbolic as liberals comparing Bush to Hitler, but it also demonstrates little regard for the content of this article. What you are suggesting, with this analogy, is (a)Americans with an anti-Bush attitude are as desperate and demolished as post-WWI Germany, and are capable of supporting a NAZI perspective; (b)these Americans feel the same way as the "Germans who put Hitler in power", ie. the inner circle of the third reich who designed the final solution, the sytematic destruction of 6+million Jews and other "inferior" composite (any debate over this issue will be removed from my chain); and (c) that believing GWB to represent a terrible trend in American philosophy is the same as saying Jews are a terrible trend in German philosophy.

For the sake of conversation, and for the sake of preserving respect for each other, let's suggest that you intended to be absurd, hyperbolic, and offensive, in a manner you may feel liberals have directed toward Bush and his supporters during the campaigning. If so, you certainly would have a point. Comparing Bush to Hitler and his supporters to NAZIs equally absurd, hyperbolic, and offensive, and for an ideology that currently holds the arrogant assurance that we know what we're talking about, is not only disappointing but reprehensible. That, of course, brings me back to what I wrote originally, about removing labels rather than perpetuating them, Little_Whip

Now let me, er, quote you quoting me, and rebutting, so to speak:

--Fahreinheit 9/11: I really like MM, you know why? Because he always takes it back to Flint. I think he really cares, has a big heart. I hate to tell you this, but he isnt even FROM Flint...thats just another one of his big fat lies. From my response to another mikey fan on a diferent thread... "Even the mans personal history is a fabrication. HES NOT EVEN FROM FLINT, MICHIGAN. His speakers bureau describes him as "born in Flint, his web site calls him a "Flint native" and his production company's website informs us that " Michael Moore was born in Flint, Michigan, where his father and most of his relatives worked in the automobile factories..." Asked to describe the source of his 'empathy for the worker" Moore told People magazine " I think its just a function of growing up in Flint, Michigan," These claims are reflected in almost every biography, Moore is described as " a Flint native," " the man from Flint," or as hailing from his "hometown of Flint." In fact. Moore was born and raised in DAVISON, Michigan, and attended Davison High School. While Davison is near Flint, proximity doesnt translate to similarity between the two towns.

Where did you grow up? Have you grown up in Flint? Do you live near Flint? Have you ever been there? I grew up in Wisconsin, but I have driven through Flint several times.

Repeat: I've driven through Flint [only driven] several times. Flint is a disaster, and it's not the worst in the country by a long shot. I've never spent a lot of time thinking about Davison, though, nor do I feel any specific sympathy for the residents there, though I'm sure they're fine people. FLINT IS A DISASTER. I'm not sure political leaning should affect how you feel about what the world has done to Flint, Michigan. Michael Moore grew up intimately with the results of devastated Flint, Michigan, and whenever MM brings his material back to Flint, I feel he is at his best: sympathetic, and trying to bring a level of consciousness to a type of living that we ignore like hell, whenever we're given the slightest chance.

Finally:

And to answer the question....when did i get mad at the left enough to get out and vote against them? About the 4000th time i had been called a moron, an idiot, a hick, a nazi....etc....by some barely literate %$#@stick that couldnt even spell.

Sorry for editing, but if anyone needs a crib, scroll up a bit and bing! decoding provided. I guess I hear your frustration. I believe you, I agree with you, and I am ashamed that not only other liberals drove you here, but myself, too. Embarrassingly, the arrogance isn't theirs, it's mine, too. I also have not understood the perspective that allows someone to, say, watch a MM film without coming away with a LITTLE sympathy, and SOME belief that MM is doing something he feels is good, and worthwhile. Nevetheless, I see not only that he is offensive, polarizing, and very hyperbolic (perhaps even negligent) in many of the analogies he draws in his weak, unprofessional journalism.

But I'm sure, since you obviously feel this way, that you know EXACTLY how MM feels, and how liberals with a prediliection for arrogant, ironic, incendiary statements feel they are justified. Your statement makes me feel better. Liberals don't have a monopoly on arrogant mislabeling and misinterpretation, do we?

TBT.

Reply #49 By: David St. Hubbins (Anonymous) - 11/22/2004 11:47:02 AM I just wanted to say I think in the wake of the election it's the liberals, if anyone, who are making the effort to bridge the divide. The Bushies seem as nasty in victory as they were during the election. Just my personal opinion. Kindest Regards, David St. Hubbins

Your opinion has been dually noted and subsequently iqnored!

Your opinion has been dually noted and subsequently iqnored!

Can you ever write a sentence without USING CAPS or *screaming* or exclamation points!!!!!! ? I've never seen you do it, not once. You must be a sad angry man.

I don't like your attitude, and would appreciate you not resonding to my posts by leaving pointless drivel like this. Notice the respectful tone I use; contrast it with your angry, venomous approach.

And learn how to cut and paste properly, your posts are always a mess. Thanks.

Kindest Regards,
David St. Hubbins

Well, I'd say that the liberals, the party dems, at least, have not made any effort whatsoever, and that's one of the reason I joined up here--to see if we could find a new voice.

But I do agree that, in general, the conservative movement has been aggressive, and, yes, slightly nasty. They have some justification, though. Dems have labeled them as evil, and continue to apologize to the world for sharing space with conservatives. You can't really expect them to take the first step when our atitudes are so derrogatory.

Of course, Little_Whip's comments above make me sad, and, unfortunately, probably representative of the general conservative feeling of success, right now.

TBT

Thank you for your response, Doc.

Because in the post you are refering to I used none of which you claimed I did.

Actually, you did:

"Your opinion has been dually noted and subsequently iqnored------>!<----------(notice exclamation point)"

Lol, why are you wrong about everything? And I've read about you too, Doc, and you are out of line copping any kind of attitude with me, buddy. Yeah, I know you read a lot about me here...take a look at LW's 'Buried Part II' post. Notice how I use words like 'please', 'thank you', and 'kindest regards'. Civilized. In return, I get 'you're an asshole' 'asinine' 'get a life' etc. And all because I'm trying to close the book on hate

Anyhoo, the blogsphere is supposed to be a free market of ideas. At JoeU, the market is distorted right now. I'm here for a little 'market correction'. And I think you'll find my opinion will be far from ignored.

Kindest Regards,
David St. Hubbins