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Elemental – polishing for Alpha 0

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Elemental – polishing for Alpha 0

from JoeUser Forums

image So much going on this week and at the same time, so little. A lot of vacations here at Stardock pop up in June since this is one of the prime months here in terms of weather. 

On a sad note, Trent (Mittens) had his last day today. He’s off to Salt Lake City to take a position as a designer at a new game studio.  We’ll miss him.  Combined with the people on vacation, the studio area feels like a ghost town.

My executive planner and marketing manager gave me a “CEO make over” today with a bunch of new clothes. I guess trade show shirts and ratty shorts just aren’t good enough anymore.

Right now, we’re looking at dozens of issues that need to be addressed before we can even do the alpha build of the game.  Everything from the fonts looking crummy to setting priority on what should be on the setup.

For instance, if someone wants to create a custom civilization and in there choose “good” or “evil” that’s fine. But I’m having them get rid of being able to have pre-existing factions be good or evil because it would literally double the writing involved for each faction’s back story.  While that’s interesting to have, I would rather have more depth per faction rather than half the depth but a mirror universe version of each one.

The screen you see here will likely be significantly altered between now and release. But this gives you an idea of how iterative the process is.  I’ll probably eliminate the appearance area and put that into the custom race area. Right now, “design your race” is the only option. There isn’t a formal “choose your faction” area.  Elemental comes with 2 built in races and 12 factions but we plan to let people create their own races and factions as well, but that should be a separate area that is a lot richer. If you try to mash too much stuff together, it’s confusing to new players but still too weak for experienced users.

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Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks for the update Frogboy! :grin:  Been awhile since I've had a chance to delve into the journal entries and I'm really loving what I'm seeing here!

I wish you the best of luck at your new job, mittens!

Quoting Wintersong, reply 11

I'm dead tired and with an incredible headache so I'll let my (today's) avatar to tell you what I think.

Might I ask where you got your avatar from, Winter? A journal i missed perhaps? :X

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 15
The only thing about this post that disappoints me is that it looks like there won't be dynamic alignment selection. I think allowing alignment to change during the course of the game would allow for tons of opportunities, both for play style and diplomacy.

That said, I guess it'd be possible to start out as a given alignment but still change during the game. After all, good can turn to evil and vice versa. 

Actually, early on Brad said that the varying magic research trees were based on the Elements of the game's title (ie. Water, Fire, Life etc.) and whether you channel them positively or negatively. In other words you are innately a "positive" or "negative" Channeler. So changing good/evil alignment in mid-game would imply drastic on the fly revisions of your tech-tree, opening several rather large cans of worms design-wise.

Then again, positive/negative might not directly translate into good/evil. (after all, you can be a evil dictator who thinks "dark side" methods are inherently self-destructive, or a good guy with a serious ends and means problem)

Reply #79 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Zaisha, reply 3

Actually, early on Brad said that the varying magic research trees were based on the Elements of the game's title (ie. Water, Fire, Life etc.) and whether you channel them positively or negatively. In other words you are innately a "positive" or "negative" Channeler. So changing good/evil alignment in mid-game would imply drastic on the fly revisions of your tech-tree, opening several rather large cans of worms design-wise.

I remember the talk about the positive/negative ends of the magic spectra, but I don't remember anyone ever saying that channelers are innately one or the other. Based off of this journal it looks like that's how it's planned, but I would be so much happier if it's not some preset thing. Also, like you said, I don't think we know whether or not magic spectrum is at all related to good vs. evil. And either way, switching alignment shouldn't be a binary thing IMO - it itself could be a spectrum. And if good/evil is related to positive/negative, then if you're, let's say if you're at least halfway between Neutral and Good then you get access to the 'positive' spells, likewise for Evil and Negative, and if you're somewhere in the middle you could just have access to the base spells, but with improved strength.

Reply #80 from Elemental Forums Top

I wonder if you can be a "positive" channeler leading an "evil" faction

Reply #81 from Elemental Forums Top

.

Quoting Shadowhal, reply 16

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 15The only thing about this post that disappoints me is that it looks like there won't be dynamic alignment selection. I think allowing alignment to change during the course of the game would allow for tons of opportunities, both for play style and diplomacy.

That said, I guess it'd be possible to start out as a given alignment but still change during the game. After all, good can turn to evil and vice versa. 
yeah, you're right. or at least it seems pretty fixed a priori, this is an early build anyway and it may just determine the alignment you start out with. shades or a scale would at least be more preferable, something akin to GC II.

If the player can only choose Good or Evil from a pre-set faction, it wouldn't be that interesting.

Let's say that one starting option to the game (or the only one) would be a "tabula rasa", a clean slate, with the player then choosing which factions to favor while he/she progresses in the game. Maybe the player chooses to have barracks that produces undead minions. Then the player upgrades the barracks to also produce the "evil" dreadlords but from another faction, and as long as the player is able to gain their favor... either by beating them to a pulp or by satisfying their needs.

So, the different factions/races would still exist and be fully scripted with their fixed abilities and philosophies, but it's up to the player to mix them up in order to create a truly unique empire. An expanding empire that would be assimilating the scattered tribes and races of a post-apocalyptic world (either by deceit/diplomacy/conquest) into one great Good/Neutral/Evil civilization.

There could be general research trees (related to the overall management of the empire) and unlocked research trees (related to the abilities you are able to get from an assimilated faction).

I admit that I'm saying this with limited knowledge of what's envisioned for Elemental, but I think that having the player set on a fixed path would be taking a great deal of excitement and potential out from the game. Let's instead be able to take advantage of the ensuing chaos (from the world's lore) and create something new.

I also think that the average gamer has been spoiled with what I see as a good trend from games like GalCiv, Spore, BioWare games, and others, where it's up to the player to choose which path to take. Games that may be too pre-set is one thing about the "old school" that would work against a wider appeal for this game in particular.

Bring order to the world of Elemental... one way or the other...

Reply #82 from Demigod Forums Top

I didn't understand the elimination of good/evil alignments for races.

Will there not be a alignment compability chart at all in this game, like with Age of Wonders, where pairing some racial units with others yielded penalties, and other combinations yielded bonuses?

Reply #83 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting eobet, reply 7
I didn't understand the elimination of good/evil alignments for races.

Will there not be a alignment compability chart at all in this game, like with Age of Wonders, where pairing some racial units with others yielded penalties, and other combinations yielded bonuses?

The races are still innately good or evil, it's just that you don't get 2 versions of them.

Original plan:

You choose the Fallen race "Horrors of Watoomb" and you choose between "Good Horrors of Watoomb" and "Evil Horrors of Watoomb". (with differing backstories)

Now:

You choose the Fallen race "Horrors of Watoomb" and they are an evil race. (with an evil background description)

 

(names made up on the spot)

Reply #84 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 12

No, it's a charity service to those souls. You see, they get really bored sitting around for eternity with nothing interesting to do. You're doing them a service, charity work, giving otherwise idle souls a purpose in their afterlife.
This I can kinda get behind:

Necromancer: So hey guys, what's up?

Restless soul: Eh, nuffin. Bored. Just sitting here for eternity with nothing to do.

Necromancer: Well.. wanna go kill some people? It'll be fun!

Restless soul: I don't know.. sounds like a lot of work. Is it far?

Necromancer: No, no, it's right over there. *points to human army coming down a nearby hill*

Restless soul: Eh, something to do I guess. Come on guys, get off your lazy asses and let's go kill some dudes!

Army of restless souls: *roar*

Misery loves company...

Reply #85 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting aLap, reply 6
.


Bring order to the world of Elemental... one way or the other...

sounds like darkseid: so that I shall bring order to an aimless universe

that would be an interesting victory condition or at least game-ender movie:  reshape the world in your image, bring order by wiping everyone off the map who does not support your ideas of a perfect world or something like.

Reply #86 from Demigod Forums Top

Me, I always play the "wipe everyone else out" game. :)

Reply #87 from Elemental Forums Top

Original plan:

You choose the Fallen race "Horrors of Watoomb" and you choose between "Good Horrors of Watoomb" and "Evil Horrors of Watoomb". (with differing backstories)

Now:

You choose the Fallen race "Horrors of Watoomb" and they are an evil race. (with an evil background description)

 

More specifically, they want you to be able to make a "Horrors of Watoomb" faction that can be played good or evil, but they've decided not to trying doing the standard faction set as optional allignment factions.  Preferable really, I'd rather have factions with a definite flavor to them.  Having a race of goody two shoes paladins that can be good or evil just doesn't make sense.  Certain twisted individuals will want one, but then they can add one in themselves.

Reply #88 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 12
More specifically, they want you to be able to make a "Horrors of Watoomb" faction that can be played good or evil, but they've decided not to trying doing the standard faction set as optional allignment factions.  Preferable really, I'd rather have factions with a definite flavor to them.  Having a race of goody two shoes paladins that can be good or evil just doesn't make sense.  Certain twisted individuals will want one, but then they can add one in themselves.
Order->Empyrean Calabim Vampire/Radiant Guard/Paladins ftw.

Reply #89 from Demigod Forums Top

Paladin Vampires? Or Vampire Paladins? Eeeenteresting.

Reply #90 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes, it is.

 

Why haven't you already played FFH if you're waiting for this game?  It's the best thing out there, although hopefully not for long.

Reply #91 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 15
Yes, it is.

Why haven't you already played FFH if you're waiting for this game?  It's the best thing out there, although hopefully not for long.
Fall from Heaven 2 is at least eight kinds of awesome.

Calabim are one of my favourite civilizations, much due to the aformentioned tactic of Sun 2 Vampires. If upgraded to Vampire Lords instead of Paladins (which are in no way mutually exclusive) you can also take Sun 3.

My current favourite is Lanun/Octopus Overlords, though. Nothing fancy about it, just an insane economy.

Reply #92 from Demigod Forums Top

I never got into Civ 4. As I said, I always go with the military route, and it's the one thing that's sorely lacking in Civ4 and GalCiv - no tactical combat.

Reply #93 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 17
I never got into Civ 4. As I said, I always go with the military route, and it's the one thing that's sorely lacking in Civ4 and GalCiv - no tactical combat.
Bah. Screw that.
I'm still disappointed it made it into Elemental.

Reply #94 from Demigod Forums Top

Heretic. Even Age of Wonders had it!

Reply #95 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting aLap, reply 6
Bring order to the world of Elemental... one way or the other...

 

That led me to a brief period of daydreaming about what a two-axis (i.e., D&D-style) alignment system would look like in Elemental.  I was never into D&D, so my interpretation of their alignment system might be a bit "free".

 

Lawful Good = a civilization of crusading paladins out to subdue the evildoers (i.e., everyone who isn't them).

Neutral Good = a small, prosperous civilization that wants to deal evenly and fairly with all its neighbors.

Chaotic Good = going Gandalf; nuff said.

 

Lawful Neutral = a civilization built around enlightened tolerance for all ways of life, even those that involve the occasional, or not so occasional, ritual sacrifice or zombie raising.  Focused on building coalitions and diplomatic institutions (to the extent Elemental supports this); will happily go to war to enforce treaty obligations.

True Neutral = a small den of bear warriors .... er, a civilization that specializes in recruiting and training the roaming beasts of the world.  Mostly wants to be left alone to investigate the properties of these really interesting plants, man ...... purely for research purposes, of course.

Chaotic Neutral = a lone channeler going for an Unvictory condition by raising the oceans / fracturing the world / opening portals to the nether regions / triggering the Zombie Apocalypse.  Hahahaha!  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Lawful Evil = tyrannical despot out to subdue everyone who isn't paying him/her tribute.  Oddly similar to Lawful Good, but with less self-rightousness and more steepled fingers, petting of cats, and sinister laughter.

Neutral Evil = a civilization of crooked merchants and diplomats who will cheat you blind if you take your eyes off them for a moment.

Chaotic Evil = a band of marauding heroes out to kill and loot, led by a super-powerful channeler.  If they can stay on task for long enough to complete the Master Quest, well, let's just say we all hope they don't.

 

 

Actually, looking over that, it looks like we may have a lawful/chaotic axis after all, just not one that's explicitly called out as such by the game.

Reply #96 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 17
Will there be a neutral alignment?

I hope a neutral alignment exists...  I thought AgeofWonders:SM provided a good selection having:

   Pure Good, Good, Neutral, Evil, and Pure Evil

 

Reply #97 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Zaisha, reply 8
Original plan:

You choose the Fallen race "Horrors of Watoomb" and you choose between "Good Horrors of Watoomb" and "Evil Horrors of Watoomb". (with differing backstories)

Now:

You choose the Fallen race "Horrors of Watoomb" and they are an evil race. (with an evil background description)

 

(names made up on the spot)
Not so...

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/watoomb.htm

http://www.comicvine.com/wand-of-watoomb/18-49002/

B)  

Reply #98 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 18
I'm still disappointed it made it into Elemental.

I'm looking very much forward to tactical combat. If you don't like that you can always use auto-resolve or play Fall from Heaven 2. ;)

Reply #99 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wahngrok, reply 23

Quoting Luckmann, reply 18I'm still disappointed it made it into Elemental.
I'm looking very much forward to tactical combat. If you don't like that you can always use auto-resolve
Not an option and I'm tired of people talking about it like it is.

Quoting Wahngrok, reply 23
or play Fall from Heaven 2.
I already am. B)
Quoting Annatar11, reply 19
Heretic. Even Age of Wonders had it!
Yeah. And it was worse off because of it. But even then it was better, since it didn't attempt some kind of twitch gaming/pause hybrid.

Reply #100 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mandelik, reply 22



Quoting Zaisha,
reply 8
(names made up on the spot)
Not so...


http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/watoomb.htm

http://www.comicvine.com/wand-of-watoomb/18-49002/

 

......... I guess there are only so many names that aren't already taken in a sci-fy/fantasy context.:omg:

(I made it up for the "tomb" part, ie. connection with the undead)