Demigod design dissection... a race for catapults?

i suggest using all demigods and different item builds, and playing with more than the recommended amount of players on each map(4v4 on cataract is so fun :D).

i do agree that some aspects make the game alittle boring, such as on the "bottlenecking" maps, where it just becomes a push fest which takes forever.

this game was never ment to be "better" than every other game rolled into one, i think comparing them to this is abit silly.

 

 

I can see your point and partially agree. The game is won and lost using catapaults in the majority of the games I play.

I disagree that this is a problem however. The game is essentially a contest to see who can get giants/catapaults and hold a superior number of portals for a little while. How do you go about doing this? Well you use a bunch of different characters to earn money and go up in war rank until you hit a high enough rank and have enough cash to buy catapaults. If you took out the creeps the game would go on forever, and I certainly wouldn't play it since I'm not going to lay down an hour every time I wan't to play a game. So I honestly don't see your problem, you are playing the RPG and RTS sub games you mentioned above until you can end the game. This is done by getting high level creeps and capturing portals in most cases.

If your opponent gets catapaults before you its generally because they've outplayed out. And if they haven't outplayed you, you're still going to win because they won't be able to capitalise by getting the extra portals they need.

I disagree with your assertion that tactical behavior (such as flanking and ambushes), item purchases, and tower upgrades have no effect on the game as it now stands.

Even on Crucible, the opportunity exists to perform a wide variety of tactical behaviors, including but not limited to: leaving the lane to capture an opponent's flag, causing them to divert their attention; baiting a Demigod forward by appearing weak so that your partner can appear and crush them; teleporting behind an attacking Demigod, or on top of them as they're capturing your flag, to rout or kill them; stunning an opposing Demigod as they start to run or teleport away, ruining their escape attempt; letting a Demigod chase you into your towers and then stunning or slowing them in tower range for a brutal takedown; and so on.

With the proper item mix (damage, health, siege minions and priests), you will be able to tear down your opponents' towers like candy.  With the proper item mix (mana, mana, more mana), you will be able to spam your powerful spells without limit, or recharge your mana in the field.  With the proper item mix (health, armor, priests) you will be frankly unkillable on the field.  Paraphrasing Woppin above, items give you the tactical advantage required to get you catapults--or, if you're absolutely ruining your opponents, artifacts so that you can destroy the enemy's base yourself.

Also: don't discount trebuchets.  On the right map, they can singlehandedly clear a large chunk of the board of enemy towers by themselves.  Remember; where there is a tower, there is a tactical advantage for the team who owns it.  If you disagree with me, trying chasing your opponents through them sometime.

In short: while I agree that many games of Demigod end with a race to catapults, I disagree with most of the assumptions that led you to that point, and I disagree that the game is "all about the catapults."

 

   Really?  People agree?  Noobs.  A very viable strat is to not buy units and upgrade coin and xp.  See them come at you with giants and hold them off.  If you can, they are Fizz-ucked.  After a couple of waves you come back with 3 more levels and a pile of money to unload on them. 

No ganking?  Are you kidding me?  Ganking happens plenty.  Not as much as in dota, but I though dota was miserable because of that.  Too much ganking.  Lets make a team that can stun lock and just run around stunning heros.  Lame.  This game is far superior in tactics strategy and character building.  Ever tried a TB with all stats aura and fireball?  No, so hush. 

Dont make assumtions about a game just because you dont know how deep it goes.  This game contains setup, building, interest (and many kinds of interest), strategy, and plenty of ganking. 

-"let them take those towers" 

-"why?"

-"cause we are gonna jump them on their way back"

.....

-"omg that worked, we just killed all 4"

-"see, I told you"

I don't understand this. What are you afraid of if you don't dare to compare it to the rest of the games out there? If you create something, shouldn't you aim to be the best there is?

Chasing an opponent through towers happens quite frequently when experienced players are steamrolling new ones. Oak and the Beast are especially good at that tactic.

Also, I find the first part of your final paragraph is in conflict with its last part. Catapults win or loose a game most of the time, wether the game is "all about" them (which I never said) or not, is just semantics.

And how often does this happen? I mean, 99% of the time, you do not face just giants. You face giants AND the other players at the same time, and if they have giants and you don't, it probably also mean that they have a level advantage on you, which I have a very, very difficult time believing you can overcome.

The rest of the post, I unfortunately couldn't understand.

I disagree that it's a race for catapults, because that would imply that the side without catapults has an instant loss, which is not true if the side with the catapults are not in a position to capitalize on their advantage. What if both sides gets catapults at the same time? Then it defaults to the side with the better upgrades/items/levels.

It's not a race to anything, but rather a winning team will be able to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition, regardless of the method. Catapults is merely one way to heighten one's advantage, but it's not an end-all.

So I disagree that catapults is a design flaw. Better angels could help, though.

 

Everytime I play as oak i do a really evil laugh when the opposition get catapults/giants and im above level 10 because im about to get all the gold and exp ill need for the rest of the match while at the same time making myself almost unstoppable thanks to all the free heals.

True enough, though upgrading the base is a fairly large part of playing.

True enough also, though you can influence movements by either killing minions in a cooridor or leaving them alive, thereby influencing how far your minions advance

You don't attack from the flanks? Really? 90% of my demigod kills are flank attacks, just travel down a different cooridor and loop around behind them. This generally requires the front towers to be down, but that's not too much of an issue

Again, ambushes are a large part of my game. Gotta love it when an enemy demigod turns to retreat only to run into a trap (mines, towers, any flanking demigod, mist, etc). And, though I'll get into this more later, it's really easy to cap and lock solo without catapults if you play as the right demigod (rook or oak). I played one online game where I solo capped both enemy portals as rook, with just priests supporting me, simply because I had enough HP/armor/regen/eat towers to walk through their static defense unimpeded and my ally was good enough to pin down both enemy demigods. In fact of the games I've won I would guess in 60% catapults were never purchased, as they're expensive and games that end around lvl 5-8 don't give enough gold to get them without sacrificing other things.

 

If enemy defenses are killing you in the mid/late game when you have enough items then you're either playing a non-siege character (UB, torch, vampire lord, sometimes sedna) or you're not playing siege right. Half the demigods in the game are capable of soloing base defenses without problems, and even sedna can built right with the right tactics (hit, run, heal, repeat).

I'm disagree with one point, when a game has quakesounds (I played CS too long to not identify them as such) built in I'm inclined to believe the developers at least partially intended for the game to gladiator-like
 

I must disagree. I've played a number of games online, all using the same demigod and the same strategy. Not a single one has had even a slight resemblance to another. My first game was a balanced match until I managed to backdoor them with rook, then it became a curbstomp. My second started out as a curbstomp and got worse for the enemy. My third was a constant back and forth tug of war right up to the end where we managed to kill the enemy citidel as our own hit 3/4 health, etc. If by repetative you mean, demigods always fight and never cook or something, then I agree, but I have not yet had a repeat game, even against AIs.

A variation in call ins could help this IMO.  Make the game less linear, and more RPS(Rock-Paper-Scissors) when it comes to creeps.

Give 3-4 trees of creeps, and let you either pick one (Like heavy armor but slow, flying but weak, fast and ranged, etc).  This would give each time a chance to play to their and their armies strengths, instead of every game being the same linear tree.

Another option would be Creeps that negate each other, but exclude other options.  Have 3 trees, but you are only allowed 1 unit in each set.  Minitors would be good swarmers, but you could have an AOE creep that killed them easily, but couldnt hurt angels.  Give each unit a specialty and advantages/disadvantages.

You could also even tie this to DGs.  Allow certain DGs to only be allowed certain upgrades for creeps, like poison for UB, or more archers(or longer range) for Reg.  Basically, turn this into a team game where creeps are more of a driving force option and DGs are support, rather then creeps are XP.     

im not afraid of comparing games, it becomes invalid because the game is so different to others(it is not from a specific genre),

for example when you compare and MMO game to an FPS, it is stupid because they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

in the case of demigod(mix of RPG,RTS,ACTION) you cannot compare it to, for example starcraft(RTS only), because the game is still completely different(has different objectives, skills required, etc..)

OK but catapults don't win games where people actually know how to play.  I covered this over here a long time ago - The only strategic element that wins games between two balanced and skilled teams is portal control. 

Here's the problem with your model:  You can bring all the catapults you want, you still have to take down my citadel.  I'm going to eat your catapults, invest in building regen, and push you off.  Rinse, repeat.  If you don't down my citadel within a few waves I will have a big xp and decent gold advantage.  I'll probably keep farming you for a few more waves and then I'll start pushing, and there won't be a thing you can do about it.  Same with Giants, unless you get them when I'm at level 7 or something, they are just going to get ground up and fashioned into shiny new armor and skill points for my team.

A better thesis, imo: Demigod (Conquest mode) is a race for portal control.  When you can cap and *keep* a majority of the portals on a map you will win. 

This usually happens in conjunction with Catas or Giants but it doesn't have to.  It usually means you can beat the opponents in 1v1 duels but it doesn't have to (why we have locks).  It doesn't necessarily represent an advantage in War Rank, kills, team composition, gold, citadel upgrades, or equipment, but it's the one thing you can point to that will end a game 95% of the time (The other 5% your opponents are able to cover 3-4 lanes of heavy reinforcements and beat you at their citadel at the same time - you probably fed them each an artifact or two and were going to lose anyway)

This is a weird argument.  Let's say you're right, just for the sake of the argument.  Catapults just count as a win.  Why would this have any bearing on how good the game is up to that point?

For comparison, take chess.  You win when you kill the opposing King.  Is the game flawed purely because there is only one way to win.  You *have* to kill the King.  All of the strategy, tactics, and overall decision-making happens leading up to killing the King.

But in chess you don't have to checkmate the king with the queen.

It doesn't matter.  I'm simplifying it to just "I just bought catapults, therefore the game is over.  Victory Screen."

If you really think catapults are all that win games, then this is a valid comparison.  I personally don't feel like catapults win the game, but they are one strategy that can help win.  I've definitely won games where catapults didn't end up playing a major role, even when I had them.  Some teams are actually capable of doing significant damage to the citadel without catapults, and some teams aren't going to win without giants anyway.

If you arnt able to push before catas, your doing it wrong.