Draginol Draginol

My problem with the American left

My problem with the American left

Your ideology is not superior

I'm a conservative. I make no bones about it. I have plenty of liberal friends. Most of my "good" political discussions are with my friends who are liberal. I have a friend in New York who I talk to a few times a week and I respect his opinions immensely. He's also very liberal.

There is a basic problem in our country right now, however. I look at the positions my liberal friends take, listen to them, and ultimately decide I don't agree with them. But I respect their right to an opinion.  But all too often, liberals do not have that same respect for conservatives and their opinions. Supporting Bush's policies is not a sign of ignorance, greed, selfishness, or warmongering. In my case, I support Bush's policies because of careful consideration.

I do not agree with Bush on every issue. The deficit being a real issue for me. But overall, I consider him to be on the right side of many issues. I don't expect liberals to agree with me. But I do expect them to show some basic respect for my right to my opinion and not to assume that my opinions are inferior to theirs.

Some of my friends have tried to argue that "Well, both sides have their share of kooks that don't have any respect for the other side." Sure. Both sides have their kooks. But I am not going to accept that there's something even remotely approaching a balance.  The American left's most vocal advocates right now are much more militant than any other group. They have been for the past 4 years. They're hateful, nasty, and intolerant of other points of view.

Look at this website for instance: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/3/ 

There's 500 pages of pretentious left wingers "apologizing" to the world that we elected Bush.  How arrogant.  There's the whole "Jesus Land" map floating around the net - implying that Kerry lost only because conservatives are a bunch of religious zealots. More arrogance.

Some would argue that since the liberals are the minority right now, that it makes sense for them to be more militant and vocal.  But you'd be hard pressed, even during the Clinton administration, to find evidence vast amounts of hateful, condescending arrogance from the right.

I never assume people who voted for Kerry were "stupid" or "moronic" or "selfish".  I simply feel that they supported Kerry because he was closer in line to their positions on a host of issues.

I think that liberals, by nature, are more arrogant than conservatives. And I'll tell you why: Because through their actions over the past few decades, liberals have demonstrated that they do not trust the democratic process.

Why do I say that? Two reasons:

First - they repeatedly have shown that they think elections are rigged and that's the only reason why they "lose". It's a good thing Kerry did lose Ohio. You know why? Because the monkey business in Wisconsin on election day would have been a bigger deal.  You see, Bush only lost Wisconsin by 11,000 votes. If Bush had won Wisconsin, Ohio wouldn't have mattered. But here's the thing, Democrats slashed all the tires on the Bush campaign's vehicles on election day.  In fact, the Republican HQs in Wisconsin were subject to repeated quasi-terrorist attacks during the final days.  You think that might have affected the Bush "get out the vote" efforts? You bet they did. In a major metro area, get out the vote drives, on election eve and election day generate tens of thousands of votes.  While Kerry supporters try to argue that Ohio was "Barely" for Bush (Bush won by 140,000 votes), the difference in Wisconsin really hits home. If you want to talk about dirty tricks, it was the Democrats who played the dirtiest.  Go ahead and Google it, try to find cases of Democratic operatives being attacked or kept from running their HQs in various states. They are few and far between. 

Here in Livonia Michigan, the big old giant Kerry signs shown proudly on Farmington Rd all the way up to election.  The big Bush signs? About a week before election someone painted "Nazi" on the Bush signs (which caused them to be taken down).  Sure, it's an "isolated" incident but it all adds up.

Second - The other reason I think it's clear that liberals don't trust the electorate has to do with their tactics.  Liberals use the courts to get their way rather than trying to get their way through the democratic process.  I've talked to liberals on-line, in email, and in person over the years and the same thing comes up "You can't count on the average person to do the right thing, that's why you need judges."  No. That's bullshit.  I happen to trust the average person to "do the right thing".

If the people of Hicksville USA want to allow a moment of silence in their classroom, that's fine with me.  If they want to put up a 10 commandments plaque in their class room, that's fine too. Only if something violates the constitution in a way that's unbeatable should judges get in.  The constitution, if you read the whole thing, is pretty clear on the matter - if it's not obviously covered by the constitution, it's left to the people to decide.  In fact, so insistent on that point were the founders that they added the 10th amendment lest there be any confusion. If it's not spelled out in the constitution, then the people have the right to make the law on a local level.

As an agnostic, I don't care about religion. But I do know that having a plaque showing the 10 commandments is not the same as establishing a state religion. At Christmas I put up a Christmas tree. Does that make me a pagan? I also put up a Nativity scene. Oh gosh, I'm so conflicted.

But liberals have shown that they don't trust the will of the people. They use the courts.  You want gay marriage? Fine. Make your case to the people. Don't go judge shopping.

But they don't make their case to the people because liberals, far more so than conservatives, have little (ahem) faith in the wisdom of the common man. Hence, when someone like George W. Bush gets elected, it doesn't occur to most of them that perhaps their views are out of touch with the mainstream. No, they instead argue that the people were somehow tricked. Or that they're just plain "stupid" or that they need to be "enlightened".

Many conservatives, such as myself, are outraged when our views are trivialized like that.  We look at the lives we lead, the accomplishments we've made, the contributions we provide to society and can't help but wonder where the liberal arrogance comes from.  For instance, red counties on average have a much lower crime rate than blue counties. Even counties that have similar populations. Why is that? Republicans tend to make more money. That's not a surprise. But are they Republicans because they're wealthy or are they wealthy because their life philosophy is more conducive to financial success? I believe it's the latter. Who gives more to charity? Which kind of people grow most of the food? Which kind of people create most of the jobs? Which kind of people are the ones to volunteer first to defend their country? Which ones are more likely to stay married? Which ones are more likely to have children in wedlock?

In other words, conservatives have plenty of room to be snobby - if they chose. But there seems to be a greater level of. well decency with the right.  If you're liberal and reading this you're probably outraged at that claim. But I can't conclude anything else. Even the right wing kooks I see on-line rarely get into venomous name calling nearly as easy as left wingers do.  The left still talks about McCarthyism as if it was yesterday. But I probably get called a "Nazi" once a week by some left winger.  I'm sorry but if you think my political beliefs are somehow extreme, you need to re-evaluate your positions. My positions on most issues are, at most, slightly right of center by any sort of objective measurement.

If the American left wants to have any influence in society, they need to get over themselves. They need to recognize that there are other view points that are equally valid to theirs. They need to recognize that diversity isn't just about skin pigment. They need to recognize that tolerance isn't just a catch-phrase. 

33,527 views 101 replies
Reply #26 Top
KingBee: As any FYI, Roe vs. Wade is a ruling. Not a law.  While I am pro-choice, I would love to see Roe vs. Wade overturned because it is terrible constitutional law.
Reply #27 Top

Roe vs. Wade is a ruling. Not a law


i was envisioning the most likely basis for overturning r v wade: the court determing a fetus is protected by the 14th amendment.

Reply #28 Top
For instance, red counties on average have a much lower crime rate than blue counties. Even counties that have similar populations. Why is that? Republicans tend to make more money. That's not a surprise. But are they Republicans because they're wealthy or are they wealthy because their life philosophy is more conducive to financial success? I believe it's the latter. Who gives more to charity? Which kind of people grow most of the food? Which kind of people create most of the jobs? Which kind of people are the ones to volunteer first to defend their country? Which ones are more likely to stay married? Which ones are more likely to have children in wedlock?
And this ISN'T arrogance? You might as well just summarize your point as: "Since we conservatives are so much better, where do you liberals get off thinking you are better?" and leave it at that.

Truly, the problem is that the left and right see a different bottom line. Nowhere is this more evident than in the claim, stated above, but repeatedly cited on these forums: Conservatives are better people as evidenced by the fact that their life philosophy is more conducive to financial success. Maybe this is materialism or maybe it is Puritanism (God rewards with material success). Maybe it is social Darwinism in believing that the most fit humans are those that win out in economic competition. Since I lend no credence to such a belief system, the assumption that the economically best off are assumedly better people comes across to me as pretty arrogant, especially when the speaker is well off himself or herself.

However, even if you totally reject my belief system in this area, you ought to be able to see the the irony, Draginol, in citing the economic superiority of red counties over blue counties in the same piece where you deride your opponents for disrespecting the views of the common man.

You find the liberal side unbearable, but your own piece is pretty good evidence of the conservative side being at least as unbearable. For the second straight presidential election, your side has done the impossible: You have managed to come away both the winner and the aggrieved party, if you are to be listened to.

Lets be honest here though. Both sides contain a pretty high proportion of people who are absolutely sure that they are right. Both sides have a pretty high number of people who then turn around and state things without tact or thought, and can be easily given as examples of the barbaric nature of the opponent. And, naturally, both sides notice their opponents' transgressions in this area a lot more than they notice their own -- in no small part because, when they read their own sides' statements, they can discern the clear spokespersons from the foolish followers.
Reply #29 Top
better probate lawyers?


How did we ever get the money to afford those lawyers if we are ignorant hicks?


Actually, probate (I hope this isn't too far off topic) is an antiquated process for settling an estate by which attorneys perpetuate a huge income source. Under the guise of determining if there is creditors against an estate the process is kept alive. How is it paid for? Well, it's paid for by the life long work (accumulated assets) of the family, the attorneys just make sure to keep the estate in the probate court until they make (read: spend) enough of the estate assets to satisfy them.

It really has NOTHING to do with party affiliation as far as passing on wealth.

I would assert that the greatest evidence that the "left" (broad brush) is arrogant, is simply thier policies. In general, the left supports government programs, i.e. more centralized government. Centralized government, to me, means that those good ol' boys back in Washington are the ordained ones that should be able to determine for us (the general populace) what is right and good because, of course, we are all too stupid to figure it out on our own.

Taxes? They should get more of what I work for because, of course, THEY know better how to spend it.
Health Care? They should provide it because, of course, THEY know better how to provide it.
Retirement? They should control it and annuitize it because, of course, I'm too stupid to make my own choices.

To reiterate Drag's points, I don't care if the 10 commandments is on display in a court house, it is non-threatening to my beliefs, I don't care what people do in their bedrooms, and I'm not interested in them advertising it, I don't care if my neighbor puts up a nativity scene or a minorah or a may pole or a flag, it won't affect my property value, I don't care if the Boy Scouts use the park, if it bothered me I'd go elsewhere, I don't care if my neighbor has a glock an AK-47 or a dozen, just don't shoot pigeons off my roof with them, I don't care if Big Macs are 2000 calories and 1500 of FAT, I'll read the nutritional contents and eat elsewhere if I don't like it, I don't care if the Forest Service goes into forests to remove the dead underbrush and overgrowth, guess we should wait for a lightning strike so it all burns down (Sierra Club really needs to get a clue on this one).

To be fair, at some level, people can be too stupid. I know of no other way to explain the CAUTION sticker on my girlfriend's hair dryer, DO NOT use in shower or while asleep. I can only conclude from this, that someone somewhere must have actually done this. However, who are we to attempt to defeat natural selection? In any event, there has to be some method and reason to the madness and the left, in general, goes way too far in attempting to protect people from themselves, hence, what I perceive as "elitist" and "arrogance".
Reply #30 Top

Reply #17 By: latour999 - 11/19/2004 11:26:02 PM
When you use the slashing of tires and other "dirty tricks" as a reason to hate the left, you have to realize that probably over 99% of liberals would not do that, and it is really a case of a few bad apples.

Second - The other reason I think it's clear that liberals don't trust the electorate has to do with their tactics. Liberals use the courts to get their way rather than trying to get their way through the democratic process.


um, 2000 anyone?


Do your homework. Gore started that NOT Bush!
And BTW Gore is a liberal dem. Point and game.
Reply #31 Top
Do your homework
An arrogant argument that generally translates to "I am the ultimate judge of sources to trust." I hear the phrase a lot around here.
Point and game.
Pure arrogance

You are welcome to feel that you know who "started" the problems with the 2000 election. (As I remember it, both candidates simultaneously sent armies of lawyers to the Florida, so I'd be skeptical of either side on this one, but that is just me.) However, anyone who feels that
Gore started that NOT Bush! And BTW Gore is a liberal dem.
is such an overwhelming argument as to justify a "point and game" comment really ought to blush, given that the thread is about the need for the other to "get over themselves."

Reply #32 Top

Reply #32 By: Don Bemont - 11/20/2004 2:22:36 PM
Do your homework
An arrogant argument that generally translates to "I am the ultimate judge of sources to trust." I hear the phrase a lot around here.
Point and game.
Pure arrogance

You are welcome to feel that you know who "started" the problems with the 2000 election. (As I remember it, both candidates simultaneously sent armies of lawyers to the Florida, so I'd be skeptical of either side on this one, but that is just me.) However, anyone who feels that Gore started that NOT Bush! And BTW Gore is a liberal dem.
is such an overwhelming argument as to justify a "point and game" comment really ought to blush, given that the thread is about the need for the other to "get over themselves."


Okay, I'm arrogant. But do you deny that *Al Gore* started the legal wrangling that went on over Florida in the 2000 election ? BTW the post was not directed at you so why are you getting in the middle? Also I've noticed that you like to throw the word "arrogant" around a lot. Why is that?
Reply #33 Top
Hey, is there a web-site full of people who voted for Bush holding signs saying "Feck off, you Kerry Voters, we're in control now, nyah nyah nyah nyah"... ?


Lol...Helix....why would we....we are not as petty or childish like the left.....but if there were a site...I'd be on it....


One further bit of comedy resulting from the 2004 election's......the rise among therapists with a new clinical term for the overwhelming depression the left is feeling because they picked a piss-poor candidate and cant handle that he lost....Post Election Selection Trama....or P.E.S.T. for short....we just cant make shit up like this.... in 92' and 96' elections...I didnt become depressed because I got stuck having clinton as president over Bush sr. and Dole.....I moved on...funny how the left cant deal with a fair vote that they lost....go figure....

Maybe in the 2008 elections the left will try a legal ammendment that each dem vote is considered worth 2 votes to a conservatives one....wonder if they'd be able to win then...
Reply #34 Top
we are not as petty or childish like the left.....but if there were a site...I'd be on it....


Did you catch what you just said? You said you're not like that and so you're better, but if there were an opportunity for you to be like that, you'd jump on it . . . surely you didn't mean it that way?
Reply #35 Top
http://www.nahnahnabooboo.com





Ok. So its not real. Consider this : what if the person behind the 'im sorry' website is really just collecting a bunch o' pictures of those tools with signs, and is planning some insidious and nefarious action using them. Mwahahaha.
Reply #36 Top

Don - my point I thought was plain: That the left is in a glass house when it comes to claiming that they've got a monopoly on intelligence and wisdom.

We're not the ones running around calling Kerry voters "morons". Or making patronizing maps.  My point is that if it was in our nature to be as pompous and arrogant as the vocal left is, we would have a pretty firm factual basis to stand on.

Reply #37 Top
The liberal left is a sorry bunch. As I have said before, they had some major sour grapes. They lost, thank God. Just looking at the pictures and the comments is funny but also a stark reminder of why I am happy that side lost.

Reply #38 Top
Did you catch what you just said? You said you're not like that and so you're better, but if there were an opportunity for you to be like that, you'd jump on it . . . surely you didn't mean it that way?


lol....yeah...I did fall into that one...chalk it up to 4 years of hearing the left spout the most disrespectful and hate filled rhetoric bout my president...my country...my military....I've talked to quite a few sane Kerry supporters (is that possible) and they brought up that those who voted for Bush shouldnt gloat if we are to try and "mend" fences as it were across the country...I'll tell you the samething I told them...after 4 years of the left's BS with a dash of passe' cold war rhetoric, I'm gonna gloat now...I'm gonna gloat tomarrow...I'm gonna gloat for the next 4 years....so in that sense..maybe I am bit petty....hey I'm only human....OHH! The Humanity....
Reply #39 Top
http://yourewelcomeverybody.com/

^Its a real site...
Reply #40 Top
Also I've noticed that you like to throw the word "arrogant" around a lot. Why is that?
Only because I saw it as one of Draginol's central points that the left is arrogant in their views, and it seems to be that the label would apply just as much to the right.

Reply #41 Top
If you were to look at what the majority of Americans want in social, economic and foreign policy it would not be at either the far right or far left. The problem we are faced with is that the policies that the moderate and left want are ignored by the GOP in power. Thus our nation is not seeing policies- economic, social or foreign -that meet what the majority want. Polls during the election showed that 60 % wanted major changes in the Bush policies in a second term. 80 % wanted some change. If Bush pushes the things he has started to talk about, we will be just as divided in four years as we are today. Passing policies that only meet the desires of about 1/3 of Americans is dead wrong from the right or the left. We need to move toward the center NOW!
Reply #42 Top

Reply #43 By: COL Gene - 11/21/2004 1:08:42 PM
If you were to look at what the majority of Americans want in social, economic and foreign policy it would not be at either the far right or far left. The problem we are faced with is that the policies that the moderate and left want are ignored by the GOP in power. Thus our nation is not seeing policies- economic, social or foreign -that meet what the majority want. Polls during the election showed that 60 % wanted major changes in the Bush policies in a second term. 80 % wanted some change. If Bush pushes the things he has started to talk about, we will be just as divided in four years as we are today. Passing policies that only meet the desires of about 1/3 of Americans is dead wrong from the right or the left. We need to move toward the center NOW!



Col you still don't seem to get it do you? Evidently 52% of America liked what they saw. At least well enough to re-elect GW. Cause that's what he ended up with.
Reply #43 Top
Here's my take:

The left and right are equally arrogant. But the right has the good sense not to advertise its arrogance.
Reply #44 Top
"If you were to look at what the majority of Americans want in social, economic and foreign policy it would not be at either the far right or far left. The problem we are faced with is that the policies that the moderate and left want are ignored by the GOP in power. Thus our nation is not seeing policies- economic, social or foreign -that meet what the majority want. Polls during the election showed that 60 % wanted major changes in the Bush policies in a second term. 80 % wanted some change. If Bush pushes the things he has started to talk about, we will be just as divided in four years as we are today. Passing policies that only meet the desires of about 1/3 of Americans is dead wrong from the right or the left. We need to move toward the center NOW!"

Most of what you will see in legislation will be moderate as far as social issues. Don't let the campaign BS fool you. A lot of what Bush did and said in his first term was to pander his way into a second term. He gave away a lot of his "political capital" prior to the election so that others in the party would keep their mouths shut about the economy. Arlen Spector is the first example that has already surfaced, and if you follow house and senate proceedings on CSPAN you will notice that there a lot moderate republicans that are rather pissed with the White House brand of politics. I wouldn't doubt that we may see the republican party splinter a bit within the next political cycle. And if the pork doesn't start disappearing out of some of the spending bills the deficit is going to hurt so many people that many republicans on capitol hill won't be able to run fast enough without the door hitting them in the ass.

In any case ignore those who think Bush is the only one with a "mandate". The moderate republicans in the house and senate have bigger mandates because most of them will be running for reelection in the future. There are an aweful lot of people on these blogs that truly don't understand the political process, and haven't been around long enough to see the dynamics of pandering and to see that certain special interest groups get used and abused time and time again.

Thats why I find this whole left-right moral "dilemma" to be so ridiculous. Most Americans lie in the center but certain people seem to think otherwise.
Reply #45 Top
This sorry everybody site is right about one thing; they sure are sorry.

Why they think they need to apologize to religiously anti American countries such as France, Greece, Germany, and all the thugocracys of the world it is beyond me. I voted for what I though was in the best interest of my country, that's what I thought they did. If the so sorry, sad sack people are so concerned with another country than perhaps they should move there.

If Kerry won the election, would these so sorry kooks have opened a website congratulating the foreign countries that have opposed Bush; causing a greater loss of American lives in the world by refusing to help.

Reply #46 Top
If Kerry won the election, would these so sorry kooks have opened a website congratulating the foreign countries that have opposed Bush; causing a greater loss of American lives in the world by refusing to help.


Now thats an interesting arguement....while it is theoretical, it is highly probable given the nature of the left's venomous rhetoric that at times bordered if not crossed into treason....regardless if they know it or not..they do give aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war....but thats okay....these coffee-klatch "diplomats" who would rather try and "understand" why our enemies hate us, who feel its their duty by some "higher power" ala marx and lenin to denigrate our military wouldn't know reality if it bit them on their backside.....

To them I'm only a member of that famous "jesusland" living in New Jersey...go figure
Reply #47 Top
drmiller

It is you that does not get it. To be correct 50.9% voted for Bush. However many who voted for Bush want him to change his policies -80% have said so! In fact 60 % want MAJOR CHANGES! Just short of half did not vote for Bush- Hardley a ground swell! It is your attitude that has created and continues the harsh way the country feels. We need true compermise and movement to the center. That will not happen under Bush and the GOP leadership!
Reply #48 Top

Reply By: Don BemontPosted: Friday, November 19, 2004
I think that it is just that you are a conservative and therefore sensitive to the attitudes of liberals. I have exactly the opposite experience. For a quick example, another current thread expressing a liberal perspective was met by this:
They are coming to take you away, haha, oh ho, hehe. They are coming to take you away. To the funny farm where life is gay, and people laugh and sing all day.

Don, that was not a liberal article.  It was a loony one.  Dont confuse the 2.  I have commented on many liberal blogs, but that one was just ET.

Reply #49 Top

um, 2000 anyone?
 

Sure, Gore took it to the courts to curcumvent the law.  The law was followed.

You dont like the law, change it.  Dont break it.

Reply #50 Top
Amazing: this post was just inciteful and hypocrtical as one made by a "left-winger" sadly this guy falls into the "right-winger" category. (Yes, you do: had you been more moderate as you claim you would have tried to find evidence that better supports your position than finding something "from small pieces" and building that into a "that is how the left [feel free to insert 'right' into here] does it" type argument. )

His making fallacious statements from the beginning such as generalizations which both sides use.

I damn well know not either side is perfect: both sides leadership make far more money and are subject to special interests on both spectrums than normal people who make sub 60grand.
Arguing one side does it worse is just frankly sad.

He brings out 1 site that is 'left-winger' (didn't visit it btw: no point since the right has just as many) and applies that to whole entire groups: both a straw man arguement and a hasty generalization.

Anyways, it's a great thing that in this country that if your a left-wing nut or a right-wing nut; you can still say or do what you want until you get in my face and I kick your ass.
So long and all the fish....

Wait up one more point:
Yes, it is arrogant for you to assume that you know better than another person; both sides do this as well. In the end you have to find out which party better serves you and this is made more difficult if you study politics as I do and realize that most people are not that informed.
THis doesn't make them stupid it just makes it easier for either side to appeal to ignorance or to fear monger or other methods of getting people to fall into line.

Those arguing against the court I seem to remember it was the court that fixed certain things people did not want to do such as stiking down some damn racist laws and then other laws that prevented women from having rights as men should. OUr system is supposed to be balanced: an executive to defend; a legislature to make the laws and a judiciary to make sure the laws (and executive orders) comply with the meaning and spirit of the constitution. The consitution does change or otherwise 3/5ths of a person would still be law today; good thing its not.