and why were they doing this?  For no reason? 

For crying out loud.  Go get yourself a Middle East Map and look how small Israel is.  And then look at how all their enemies are surrounding them.  Also you should know that most of the Middle Eastern Maps over there don't have Israel on them.  They've all taken her right off the map.  That's how they want it.

The day after Israel became a Nation in 1948, she had six Arab nations at her door declaring war on this newborn Nation.  Most of the world thought Israel would be stillborn that day.  God intervened.  God is behind Israel and the day we abandon her, someone better help us because God won't be there. 

If it weren't for us.  There would be no Israel. 

The reference about God is your opinion, and I respectfully disagree.

As for the maps - I know this, but that still doesn't mean we should pat Israel on the back consistantly. Help when help is needed, but scold when scolding is needed. Right? You don't go and constantly give a child encouragement when they do things wrong, right?

You don't destroy people's homes! If you're fighting a war against terrorists, you go after the terrorists. If you don't know where they are in a given area, then you look harder.

I am indeed biased against accepting lies.

And if you are unwilling to let people correct the lies you retell (I don't think you make that stuff up yourself. You just read it somewhere and assume it is true for some reason.), you will remain an anti-Semite, even if it is purely accidental that you happened to decide to believe the lies.

No. There is evidence that Israel has bulldozed the homes of terrorists. Israel did not just "destroy people's homes". That's an anti-Semitic lie. And there is nothing wrong with being biased against believing such lies.

I am from Germany. I have seen what believing such lies can do to a country.

The subject of bulldozing "homes" came up before on JU. And when I asked for the "evidence", all I got was a link to an article where the BBC claimed, probably rightly so, that Israel did indeed bulldoze a police station during a battle. Leaving out even the fact that this is a very humane form of fighting a war (it's better than to kill your enemies and/or bomb the building and it gives everyone inside time to flee), I can see that this story had somehow "evolved" into "Israel is destroying people's homes".

And that, my friend, is anti-Semitism. That's what it looks like.

Yes, and they never hide in or fire from "homes", right?

You are an anti-Semite, my friend. You repeat anti-Semitic lies and you don't even care how illogical they sound.

Why ON EARTH would Israel destroy homes INSTEAD of fighting terrorists? Did you think that the Israelis met one evening and decided that the world doesn't hate the Jews enough? Or what's the logic there?

Oh, that reminds me...

Evidence for the bulldozing claim?

So say you lived there, and you happened to have someone who used your home (with or without your permission) to fire at Israeli troops. Would you just go, "Oh alright." And smile? These people are trying to live their lives.

I don't remember where I saw the report, but if I had to guess I would say that it was likely on PBS. They went to a family whose home had been bulldozed because apparently, as Israel claimed (w/o proof), there were terrorists. They interviewed the family, and none...were terrorists, and none ever saw any terrorists in their homes.

News, independent reports, United Nations, etc. It's out there, go look.

the proof's on you Lucas.  You brought it up. 

Sorry, but that's just how it works. 

So do you fail to see the connection here?

How do you see it coming across as pretentious? 

And you believed all of this because...?

Let me ask you something.

What is more likely?

1. Israel destroys homes for no reason so that PBS can tell everyone and make the world hate Israel more.

2. "Palestinians" who openly call for Israel's destruction tell a lie about Israel (so that PBS can tell everyone and make the world hate Israel more).

What do you think?

Or do you assume that Israelis are so evil or so dumb that they destroy homes anyway?

LOL, Quit being such a shlamiel (don't know what that is ask the rabbi or your best friend).

Your anti-semitism is coming through the words you are saying and through your perspective.  I don't care for your justification it has nothing to do with the words you said and the perspective of anti-semitism. 

I'm still waiting to hear how Israel ALWAYS get the pass.  They are the one's that have to ALWAYS give something up in the name of peace.  When's the last time you heard Palistin had to give up Jeruselam, West Bank, Gaza, etc in the name of peace? 

Maybe your anti-semitic remarks come from your ignorance/bias, maybe not time will tell.

My bad, pretentious was not the word that I was looking for. D'oh.

My issue is the idea that we (USA) can have nukes and persue other forms of research regarding nukes, but Iran cannot. It just doesn't sit right with me. It's like saying, "Well, we can have X, but you can't have it, because we think you're ______."

You get what I'm saying?

Here's a few things to look at:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/08/09/israel-don-t-destroy-homes

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:8miVdsIZOp0J:www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cat/docs/ngos/AI_Israel42.pdf+Before+Israel+can+bulldoze+a+home,+they+have+to+provide+substantial+evidence+to+a+court+panel+that+the+owner+or+family+sponsored+the+terrorist+attack.+Once+the+court+panel+reviews+the+evidence+(sometimes+taking+weeks)+and+it+is+approved,+then+and+only+then+can+the+Israeli+army+bulldoze+a+home&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#15

(The second link, look at page 15)

Another thing I should mention is that so far as I know Israel is bound by the treaties/laws and other papers that are passed in the UN, as such...they're bound by it's human rights treaties, etc. Would that not be a violation of international law?

I wonder if that friend know that he will believe any story told about him, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

I really hoped we would be done with this at some point.

You know what I think will be one of the first signs that the Messiah has arrived?

A random person will be told "Israel (or Jews) just did evil thing X." and the random person will answer "Oh, that I cannot believe. Why would they do that?".

We are still far from that age.

At the moment random people will still believe whatever story they hear about Israel or Jews. And they won't recognise it as anti-Semitism.

But that is what anti-Semitism is and was. The Nazis did not, in fact, do much else to convince people that Jews are evil. They just retold stories and people believed them. And it never stops. And at no point do people wake up and think "Wait. Today I won't believe it. It ends here. Even if it is true, just for once I want to see what happens if the Jews are not considered evil.".

So what if Israel "gets a pass". Is that really worse than risking the continuation of 2000 years of persecution?

No, I don't think they're evil - but I do believe they are doing shit that is wrong.

What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Why is it so hard

I would rather be an honest dolt than a PC one (or meshuga). Trust me, I'm not anti-semitic. I just expect the same standards for everyone, regardless of who they are. I also expect better than bulldozing homes from a nation like Israel.

I guess if that makes me some big bad anti-semitist, then so be it. I'm not advocating their destruction, nor am I advocating any hate toward them. Hate is pointless. I just expect them to be scolded when they're wrong and so on.

Pretty simple, for a schlamiel.

See my response above save for the following: If they're so keen on giving up things for peace, then why not give up some land to settle this once and for all? Place the palestinians who truly want peace (the moms, dads, etc.) and then shell the shit out of the terrorists and those who fight them. See, a solution.

Geesh, this world really comes across god forsaken and crazy. >_>

If anyone or any country deserves a pass it's Israel.  They have been the most persecuted of all people of all time wandering around with no country to call their own after 2000 years.  Before that they were almost wiped out a few times.  To see Israel in their own land is nothing short of a miracle.  People just have no idea.  

But let me ask you this.  When is the last time you heard some US Leader say we need to make X country disappear?  When's the last time you heard Russia say X country needs to disappear?

If Iran can't show responsibiity in the little things (ie sending arms to Chamas and supporting Hezbullah) why would anyone give them something as big as nuclear technology?  They have shown no evidence that they ONLY want to use this for energy purposes. Two countries have offered to help them put in a Nuclear plant, they refused (Russia and China?).  The question is why?  Now there are reports of Iran saying they have centrifuges to upgrade the material to weapons grade.

Because if they get a pass then what order and expectations we've established for the world goes to the can. If we give Israel a pass, then that means we would have to give others passes, and so on so forth. It sets a bad precedent.

So, would I be correct in that anything that is said about Israel or Jews (even if it is factual)...is anti-semitism? Wow...

and USSR did the same through a publication.

I totally get and empathize with their plight; I don't envy their position and conflict, but when someone is persecuted, does that necessarily mean that we should consistantly give them a pass?

If someone lost their home here in the states, do we thereafter give them passes on things they do? Or do we help them, and then expect that they will get along well on their own, and follow the laws.

Agreed, Iran does need to show responsibility, but is it really our job? Where does it say in our constitution or laws that we are suddenly the world police.

Here's an idea: Instead of rattling the saber, let's wage a war...of pamphlets, etc. so to speak.  In fact, I think I first heard of the idea from former President Bush. It's claimed in a book about him that ge said that he wanted to drop "bombs" of food first in, i think, Afghanistan.

Why not take that approach, not with the leaders...but with the people. There's evidence to show that a percentage of people in Iran don't care for what's being done. It's pretty much, to an extent, a case of what politicians say is not necessarily what the people say.

Depends, according to some the left says that a lot. Seriously though, I cannot think of anyone at the moment, but I'll think further.

Lucas, they did, they have, and guess what... NO PEACE.  Why do you continue to blame Israel for the lack of peace in the middle east. 

How come you aren't complaining that Palistine isn't giving up stuff?  Your ignorant bias is astonishing!

From the second source:

I take it we can forget about destructions of homes built illegally and for military necessity since you were referring to the destructions of homes of innocent people for no reason.

Or did you mean that Israel should be criticised for destroying homes built without permits? Same thing is happening in other countries. Do you want to single out Israel without being an anti-Semite? Should be an interesting manoeuvre.

"Human Rights Watch" is known for its anti-Semitism, but let's look at the "source" anyway. (I really would have wished that you would have referred to normal news media reports rather than organisations with obvious agendas, but hey.)

The document says that Israel has stopped house demolitions because it was "ineffective". It does NOT say that those homes destroyed were the homes of innocent people, but of "alleged terrorists". (To give you an idea of what an "alleged terrorist" is, that's legal speak for the guy shooting at you. It is NOT a random Arab who might be a terrorist. "Alleged terrorist" is a polite term for someone who is currently murdering people or trying to murder people and who hasn't yet been put before a judge, which is difficult during the actual battle.)

Human Rights Watch even admit that there is still a legal battle about the demolition. That sounds quite different than your story, it really does.

So even the openly anti-Israel Human Rights Watch don't support your version of the story.

(As for the Fourth Geneva Convention, I don't know if it applies. As far as I know it only covers conflicts between parties that both accept the Geneva Conventions.)

There is also a very transparent lie in that document. It's even funny:

If they can appeal the demolition it means that the demolition might not be legal according to Israeli law. But the statement before that claims that the demolition IS legal according to Israeli law.

One of the two statements must be wrong, they cannot be be true.

Incidentally, here is the real story:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3578794,00.html

It is definitely the story "Human Rights Watch" were talking about, but it sounds different before they added their flavour to it. There is no hint that this home doesn't really belong to the terrorist but to innocent people with little connection with him.

Anyway, what is it? Is Israel's destroying homes for no reason or is Israel destroying houses of terrorists in a process that people can appeal against?

Where is the evidence for your claim?

I think the problem is that you assume that stories you hear about Israel or Jews are "factual".

What's so hard is that what is right and what is wrong apparently changes when it comes to Israel.

You made a claim, you didn't back it up.

There is nothing wrong about demolishing houses that were built without a permit or that were used to plan or execute attacks.

But the way you retell those stories is as if Israel was simply destroying family homes for no reason. And that's a lie.

No, actually you do.

What you don't do is USE your home to plan attacks.

That's what you don't do.

I'm afraid that is what happens if one goes after the terrorists. One find's them and destroys their houses.

I think you want Israel to go after the terrorists without finding them.

Israel did give land for peace, several times. It didn't work.

They tried it with Hitler too, they gave him land. It didn't work.

You cannot make peace with the "death to the Jews" crowd by giving them land.

The PLO rejected offers of land.

What do you want Israel to do?

(Some people demand a compromise. What is a compromise between no dead Jews and six million dead Jews? Three million dead Jews?)

Anyway, I think we went through another urban legends about Israel.

As the sources given tell us, Israel did NOT destroy the homes of innocent people.

But that won't stop people from repeating the lie. And if it is repeated often enough, even those who think critically will accept it as true. And the war continues.