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Essence Should Be Really Essential

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Essence Should Be Really Essential

A late-spring, pre-beta fantasy

from Elemental Forums

I've really enjoyed seeing the pre-beta chatter pick up recently, but amidst the interesting new ideas and arguments are a bunch of things that remind me just how little we've heard from the devs so far about how essence will work.

I vacillate wildly between finding that fact very frustrating because I have nothing substantial to chew on while brainstorming and being very hopeful that the devs are still working with a wide range of possibilities and there's a chance I might actually see the essence system reflect at least a few of the traits that I think would both be fun for me and a big help in differentiating Elemental as a fantasy PC game. This daydream of mine has been ongoing since the moment I first learned that the game would include both something like 'traditional' mana and a different magical asset that is tied directly to the channeler/ruler.

So, here are a few law-like properties that I hope to see for essence in Elemental:

  • Essence is a personal "stat" for the channeler (you the player) and not a resource stream like mana in MoM or Iron in Civ. Whether you spend essence on restoring lands, annointing champions, or enhancing spells, you cannot count on ever replacing that essence. But, you can hope that you'll be lucky enough to do so.
  • Channelers can gain essence via:
    • A very slow/long chart for 'basic experience points'
    • Quests to gain essence
    • A gift from a friendly channeler (need I note "very rare?")
    • Draining essence from rival channelers
    • Earning gifts from a Very Rare Fantastic Creature (e.g. an elder dragon or a fairy king)
    • Draining essence from a Very Rare Fantastic Creature
  • With adequate knowledge/skill, channelers can use essence to radically enhance mana-based spells:
    • Remove mana upkeep for an overland spell
    • Remove mana upkeep for a unit-enhancing spell
    • Raise damage from an aggressive spell by order(s) of magnitude
    • Convert a tactical combat spell to an overland spell (a defense spell boosted this way might need mana upkeep)
    • Forge artifact-level magic items (good catch, Darkodinplus)
  • Imbuing champions with essence establishes a magical connection that enables a champion to know which way and how far the channeler is and enables the channeler to call the champion home. Additional essence can
    • Provide general knowledge of champion's local context and transmit general orders
    • Provide detailed knowledge of champion's local context and enable the channeler to assume tactical combat control
    • Fundamentally enhance the champion's combat abilities/stats
    • Enable the champion to cast 'regular unit' combat magic (if such exists)
    • Enable the champion to learn and cast channeler-level spells using mana from the channeler's reserves
  • Imbuing land with essence establishes a magical connection (ownership)
    • Fog of war is eliminated regardless of unit/structure presence
    • Channeler's tactical combat spells have no range penalty on imbued lands
    • Some overland spells are cheaper or only work on imbued lands
  • Military conquest and 'peaceful' changes of ownership require essence reconciliation
    • Conqueror or newly-chosen leader can spend 1:1 essence to assume ownership--channeler who lost territory regains essence
    • Conqueror or new leader can attempt a massively mana-expensive ritual (possibly including lots of local human sacrifice) with chance of seizing ownership of territory at no essence cost and chance of spending both the essence and the mana

(I admit that the 'essence reconciliation' stuff is much about my hopes that late-game, very large Elemental maps will still be mostly wilderness.)

46,979 views 89 replies
Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

So, in essence (no pun intended!): finite levels, with a carrot at the end.

Reply #77 from Elemental Forums Top

 

There really isn’t an easy way to figure or even argue how essence should work since we don’t know “exactly” how it is meant to function in the game. I do agree that essence should not be trivialized but I also think if Elemental did implement some kind of limited and slow regeneration of essence it wouldn’t cause it to be irrelevant. The key balance as I see it in this discussion is making essence vital and strategic without it becoming a quagmire that ruins the fun factor of long games. I’m leaning towards regeneration because it wouldn’t have to be 100% regeneration but just enough to perform basic essence related action. That way even in the longest of games you could still be a semi-functional Channeler restoring land, imbuing champions / artifacts, casting essence spells just with diminished capabilities. It would still be very important for you to manage your essence properly but you wouldn’t totally be screwed over. One could argue in such a situation where the Channeler was essentially functioning on emergency power only the strategic value of essence would increase by an order of magnitude.

 I’ve also been trying to refine something GW said a while ago about “0 essence = death”. If Elemental did have a 100% finite essence system where after you obtain your max essence you never get any more you could still give the player the option to use essence abilities but with a cost associated with them. In another post I said something like

Red abilities: Have 20% below the required essence for an action, high risk of death or power loss. 

Yellow abilities: Have 10% below the required essence for an action, low risk of death or power loss

Blue abilities: Have the required essence for an action, no risk of death or power loss. 

If you expanded this a bit more and give the player someway to reduce the % chance of death I would find a 100% finite essence system very interesting late game. Concerns about no essence late game would be addressed yet the strategic value of essence overall would increase. Every Channeler would be trying to avoid desperate situations where casting that essence spell that could save your nation might also end up killing you. This would also reward people who effectively managed their essence. This is all just speculation though but I think it sounds interesting. 

 

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Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

Death - I have a feeling that a lot of people after playing a ten hour+ game would lose it if they died casting a low probablity (but possible) death causing spell. Maybe essence burn out would be better (think of being stilled in the Wheel of Time) In fact, just as in the Wheel of Time, maybe there could be a way of being unstilled, with vastly diminished capability.

Reply #79 from Elemental Forums Top

 

Quoting Denryu, reply 23
For people that are afraid of running out of essence - don't run out! For every chicken little "what if" I haven't seen how a slow regen of essence helps, and often what is suggested trivializes it.

I picture essence as your innermost self, and sometimes there just isn't enough of "you" to go around.

And pray tell, why does your 'innermost self' have to be hard-capped? Don't go citing some debatable philosophical/metaphysical notion as a good reason for a major gameplay feature. Those things should be invented afterwards to give depth to the game world for features that are implemented for the sake of gameplay - not the other way around.

And can you predict how long a given game will be? Hard-caps are not flexible, they work (sometimes) as long as you stay within their intended limits, and result in unadulterated annoyance and frustration when you exceed them. If you play a game that is longer or more chaotic than this hard-cap is intended for, essence will become trivial because no one will have any and it may as well not be there. It'll serve a purpose in the beginning of such games, but then as channelers run out (as they inevitably will) it will become a non-factor. Not fun...

On the other hand, if there are ways of getting more essence then those games can continue as they should and essence will remain important.

Quoting Denryu, reply 23
Limited essence makes essence more valuable and the decisions of when to spend it critical. If you are worries about running out, then I have no problem with being able to "level up" your channeler to get more essence. But I would hate for it to recharge your "essence battery" rather you could access inner reserves that you didn't know you had. It may seem a slim distinction, but it is a significant one. The "trickle/recharge" means that you can just hole up and hide and wait for a recharge - again this trivializes it imho. And leveling up I think should follow the levelling curve of D&D or popular MMOs - the first levels should come pretty easy and fast, later levels should require some pretty major accomplishments to gain (I don't even know if they are doing levels, lol). I also don;t think that there should ever be a level cap. That way no matter how long a game went, there would always be the ability to gain level and access more essence.

I agree with you completely about the distinction between recharging your batteries vs. accessing/gaining more. Nonetheless a very small but constant trickle (which maybe should be uniform for all channelers - no way to modify it) could still work well, I think. Yeah it means you could sit in a hole until your channeler is competitive again if something goes horribly wrong - and if the other players let you then why not? If you are in such a vulnerable position and yet manage to fend off aggressors or stay out of conflicts, then you deserve a second chance. And a trickle of essence could correspond to 'inner reserves that you didn't know you had', or even to simply becoming a more powerful channeler through age, experience, time, whatever. Other methods of gaining new essence that I think have potential (and have been suggested before) are as quest rewards and by draining it from other essence-wielding beings.

And I'm not sure how I feel about the whole level thing. I'd almost rather levels affect other channeler stats, and then have those stats modified by essence. A channeler stats could be multiplied by how much essence they hold. This way a very experienced channeler with little hoarded essence might be able to stand toe-to-toe with an unexperienced channeler with quite a bit of it. This could make for some interesting strategies, I think - and different viable options.

Quoting Denryu, reply 23
It seems like the people overly concerned about running out of essence want to have their cake and eat it to. Sometimes, making serious choices and dealing with the permanent consequences actually increases the fun and makes you feel like you are doing something major - using essence I think should have that feel of "This is one of the BIG STRATEGIC decisions". Recharging and recouping are two ways that I feel really diminish essence. I agree, having ways to get more is important for long (never-ending?) games. I know one thing I want to do is sandbox my empire long term, and it would suck to do that with no essence EVER.

Personally, I want permanent consequences. If I invest a huge amount of essence into making a super champion and then send him to his death, I want to feel it. I want to be able to get more essence over time, but no matter what I will always be set back by all that essence I lost on that champion. With that same investment other channelers could have made much better use of their essence than mine. You'll still have permanent consequences as long as you can't get essence even remotely as quickly as you can use it. If you can't get more essence then you can't recover from major setbacks. If you can, then you still have a chance to recover but you will always feel the effects in the form of lost opportunity (which is significant).

 

Quoting Darkodinplus, reply 2
 There really isn’t an easy way to figure or even argue how essence should work since we don’t know “exactly” how it is meant to function in the game. I do agree that essence should not be trivialized but I also think if Elemental did implement some kind of limited and slow regeneration of essence it wouldn’t cause it to be irrelevant. The key balance as I see it in this discussion is making essence vital and strategic without it becoming a quagmire that ruins the fun factor of long games.

I think you just summed up this whole thread :P

Quoting Darkodinplus, reply 2
I’m leaning towards regeneration because it wouldn’t have to be 100% regeneration but just enough to perform basic essence related action. That way even in the longest of games you could still be a semi-functional Channeler restoring land, imbuing champions / artifacts, casting essence spells just with diminished capabilities. It would still be very important for you to manage your essence properly but you wouldn’t totally be screwed over. One could argue in such a situation where the Channeler was essentially functioning on emergency power only the strategic value of essence would increase by an order of magnitude.

I largely agree with you but I don't want the channelers of the world to all be running on emergency power every time the game goes on for a long time. It's anticlimactic. I'd much rather give channelers the opportunity to bide their time and build up their essence stores again (or use it as they get it - each could have its advantages). But again, getting more essence should take a very long time, such that you can always use essence much faster than you can get it.

Quoting Darkodinplus, reply 2
 I’ve also been trying to refine something GW said a while ago about “0 essence = death”. If Elemental did have a 100% finite essence system where after you obtain your max essence you never get any more you could still give the player the option to use essence abilities but with a cost associated with them. In another post I said something like

Red abilities: Have 20% below the required essence for an action, high risk of death or power loss. 

Yellow abilities: Have 10% below the required essence for an action, low risk of death or power loss

Blue abilities: Have the required essence for an action, no risk of death or power loss. 

If you expanded this a bit more and give the player someway to reduce the % chance of death I would find a 100% finite essence system very interesting late game. Concerns about no essence late game would be addressed yet the strategic value of essence overall would increase. Every Channeler would be trying to avoid desperate situations where casting that essence spell that could save your nation might also end up killing you. This would also reward people who effectively managed their essence. This is all just speculation though but I think it sounds interesting. 

I don't like that at all. For one, channeler death apparently means endgame (which I personally love). That said, turning your channeler's life into a game of luck does not appeal to me one bit. At that point it's gambling, not strategy. It'd actually not be quite as terrible, in my opinion, as long as the chance of death is high (but I'd still be very unhappy with this). The reason is, if I get my chance of death down to, say, 3% and then cast my spell and die, I will be angry and frustrated. 

Reply #80 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't get what is less anti climactic about sitting around and waiting ages for essence to recharge as opposed to just dealing with being out. Being out off essence does not make a channeler a non factor in the game. That said, as I have posted above, I am not against there being some limited ways to get more.

Reply #81 from Elemental Forums Top

I’d like to make two points, first when do the best fights / battles typically take place? In my opinion it is when two opponents are evenly matched and their tactics complement each other. If every Channeler was on emergency power as we call it they would all be evenly matched. Hence I don’t think an anticlimactic ending would be the only outcome in such circumstances in fact it could be rare.

 Second, as I said I’m still working on the 0 essence = death system that could be an option. I defiantly understand being pissed if you died trying to cast an essence spell with only a 2% or 1% chance of death. What about if you set up two cut off points where % X = death and % Y = power loss / paralysis / what Denryu was talking about? This way you would get a bit of warning before you enter the “dead zone” of essence. The problem I see with this however is should you be able to cross back and forth between X and Y or should you be locked into X if you let it get that far? I don’t know I’m still just toying with this idea but I do think it has some potential. 

Reply #82 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 5
I don't get what is less anti climactic about sitting around and waiting ages for essence to recharge as opposed to just dealing with being out. Being out off essence does not make a channeler a non factor in the game. That said, as I have posted above, I am not against there being some limited ways to get more.

Well for one, it's unlikely that channelers will all run out of essence at the same time or even use it at the same rate. So things would always be moving, channelers would always be doing things. There may be a period of the game where your channeler isn't very active, but others would be. If there is no way for anyone to get more essence then things would just peter out and channelers might gradually have smaller and smaller roles and impacts in the game (though admittedly, depending on how Stardock implements essence that could be an exaggeration).

But if you aren't against there being limited ways to get more, then you and I are more or less in agreement, I think :P

Reply #83 from Elemental Forums Top

Yep I thiknk we are in more or less agreement. I don't like recoup or recharge, but levelling and quest reward I am fine with.

By the way, this topic is one of the questions on this week's Survey! (shameless plug)

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=SU4WRikn4eAGbyHYufNOpg_3d_3d

 

Reply #84 from Elemental Forums Top

man, you're eager to get that survey out there.   I should have had you post about my contest back when I ran it.

Reply #85 from Elemental Forums Top

I really think essence should be renewable, because it adds another aspect of strategy to the game, you have to prioritize hunting for essence, among all the other things.

I guess you all have seen this screenie: https://www.elementalgame.com/Screenshots/Empire_Fire_Shard_1280.jpg

Don't you think this might be a source of essence? Perhaps they are placed arround the map, and it will be very important to controll them?

 

Reply #86 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NorsemanViking, reply 10
I really think essence should be renewable, because it adds another aspect of strategy to the game, you have to prioritize hunting for essence, among all the other things.

I guess you all have seen this screenie: https://www.elementalgame.com/Screenshots/Empire_Fire_Shard_1280.jpg

Don't you think this might be a source of essence? Perhaps they are placed arround the map, and it will be very important to controll them?

But it'd remove the aspect of strategy that has to do with responsably managing your essence.
Also, if anything, that node is to either mine crystals or replenish mana.

Reply #87 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 11



Quoting NorsemanViking,
reply 10
I really think essence should be renewable, because it adds another aspect of strategy to the game, you have to prioritize hunting for essence, among all the other things.

I guess you all have seen this screenie: https://www.elementalgame.com/Screenshots/Empire_Fire_Shard_1280.jpg


Don't you think this might be a source of essence? Perhaps they are placed arround the map, and it will be very important to controll them?
But it'd remove the aspect of strategy that has to do with responsably managing your essence.
Also, if anything, that node is to either mine crystals or replenish mana.

I do not agree in that, if essence is hard to get in the first place.

 

Reply #88 from Elemental Forums Top

One thing I was thinking us is that essence recharges, but you can only hold a certain amount at once: levelling up or completing quests can increase your essence CAPACITY. Also, it doesn't just trickle in naturally: you have to WORK to get more.

Reply #89 from Elemental Forums Top

And what is the fun in starting with massive amounts of essence from the start of the game, and no ways to get more? Being able to do whatever you want in the beginning of the game?

Isn't it more interesting to start with very little essence, and having to work and plan carefully to get more of it? I guess that's what strategy is all about...