Numerous opponent types

Hey, I made this post in another threat, but though that perhaps it might deserve its own thread.  I personally think that most of a player's opponents in Elemental should not be channeler style, empire building opponents.  It would be interesting were there both channeler style opponents and non-playable style opponents.  There could be 8-10 channeler style opponents but many dozens of non-playable style opponents that could come in multiple forms.  Non-playable opponents would have objectives that don't always revolve around the basic expand and conquer schema.  Many of them would be "emerging" opponents, that appear throughout the game, and some of them could rival even a channeler's empire at certain points.  They could come in various forms, such as the following:

1. Armed City States: Cities that form around some kind of defensive feature, but with no channeler.  They are capable of expanding and, with some luck, create proto nations.  They can be negotiated with, conquered, or integrated if relations remain good.  Sometimes, a channeler might arise in well-to-do city states and become a channeler style opponent.

2. Dragon Clutches: A group of dragons that live together, typically a group of males or a female and her offspring.  Given the strength of dragons, they would be one of the most important "opponents" in the game which all players would fear or court.  They can either be noble benefactors that fight evil empires or wicked manipulators that shake down other opponents for tribute.  Sometimes, human worshippers or followers can start settlements at the base of their dens.  Either way, they can be negotiated with in a fashion that is limited (while you couldn't make a formal trade treaty, you could forge alliances, or call on them for mercenaries, etc.)  

3. Bandit Lords and Robber Barons: Small opponents that spring up around cities that do not guard their commerce well.  They can be the subjects of limited diplomacy (bribing to leave you alone or, in a more pricey case, hire them to go fight other opponents on their own innitiative.) 

4. Hordes: There can be numerous villages of barbaric humans or other humanoids like orcs that on occassion band together briefly to invade and pillage civilized lands.  While they are in scattered village form, you cannot negotiate with them, but can conquer / destroy their villages (be careful, you might incite them into a horde to fight you!)  When they turn into hordes, they become temporary opponents that would generally be hostile to everyone but you can use diplomacy to "deflect" them toward other opponents or convince them to return home to their lands.  Sometimes, they can become hordes in order to flee from their former land and will damage the economy of any land they pass through as they forage to survive (you could invite a horde to settle in your territory if they are simply looking for a place to live, which would put pressure on your arable land but give you the option of assimilating them later.)

5. Monstrous Tribes: Tribes of large monstrous creatures, like trolls or ogres.  They can field raiders against other opponents, be they other monstrous tribes or civilized ones.  They even grow in strength and generally when they get to a large size, they splinter, preventing them from ever becoming a formidable empire.  Typically what would happen when a region becomes too overpopulated with such tribes is that many tribes would be driven out and in some cases end up in a civilized opponent's land.  They are generally a nuissance and must be slain.  To eliminate them for good, you'd have to launch a campaign into the wilderness to strike at the heart of their tribes and, in the process, perhaps recover some treasure as well.  But you could, for instance, feed them on a regular basis if you had very large surpluses of food and it could open up diplomacy options which would allow you to maintain tenuous relations and, in some cases, you could bring them to war with you as unreliable, but formidable allies, and even hire some of them on as mercenary units. 

In the end, channeler style opponents are your long term, permanent rivals, which expand rapidly and remain competitive throughout the game.  Non-playable opponents can be powerful, but typically don't became rivals to world domination because they are unable to organize effectively (though in some rare cases, if conditions are right, non-playable opponents like a growing dragon clutch might be an interesting game long ally or arch nemesis.)  Minor opponents in this fashion would give the game a lot of spice--- having to only contend with the same old empire building foe time and again can just get tedious...

 

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Reply #1 Top

Things like bandit lords and armed city states would certainly spice up the game.   I'm personally a pretty big fan of AI only sub-factions that might appear in a game.  I think the ability one might have to influence, alliance, or destroy these AI only faction should also heavily influence the outcome of the game.  Perhaps if they REALLY like you, they might even join your kingdom.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 1
... Perhaps if they REALLY like you, they might even join your kingdom.

The lack of any way for this to happen is my only serious gripe about the minors in GC2. I can get how they shouldn't just influence-flip like majors do on account of them having no chance for serious influence. But really, both the majors and the minors should be able to consider deferentially joining a greater power under the right diplomatic and military circumstances. I'm pretty sure that's how the Republic of Texas joining the U.S. worked.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting GW, reply 2



Quoting landisaurus,
reply 1
... Perhaps if they REALLY like you, they might even join your kingdom.


The lack of any way for this to happen is my only serious gripe about the minors in GC2. I can get how they shouldn't just influence-flip like majors do on account of them having no chance for serious influence. But really, both the majors and the minors should be able to consider deferentially joining a greater power under the right diplomatic and military circumstances. I'm pretty sure that's how the Republic of Texas joining the U.S. worked.

Yeah, Galactic Civilizations 2 minor races were basically just free planets to conquest oriented species or free, early trade locations for peaceful races.  They never built a military, they never had any influence on the game, and they always built tons of constructors for reasons that will forever be nebulous.  It would be refreshing to see minor opponents in Elemental that had some real teeth as well as have diplomatic options that aren't of the same flavor as you would with other Channelers.

Reply #4 Top

What I would like to see:

A 'minor' nation of a race that is innately magical and quite powerful so they don't get steamrolled so easily as Galciv. Small in numbers so small in size. Acting more for regular trading and a safe haven early on, and more for trading new/unique techs/spells and a safe border later on. Also, may openly help a nation falling severely behind with resources/techs/spells. This way they affect the game without just being an extra plot of fertile land to capture or becoming obsolete late game.

/want foxes.

 

:fox:

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Kitkun, reply 4
What I would like to see:

A 'minor' nation of a race that is innately magical and quite powerful so they don't get steamrolled so easily as Galciv. Small in numbers so small in size. Acting more for regular trading and a safe haven early on, and more for trading new/unique techs/spells and a safe border later on. Also, may openly help a nation falling severely behind with resources/techs/spells. This way they affect the game without just being an extra plot of fertile land to capture or becoming obsolete late game.

/want bears.

 

fixed :grin:

though it would be nice to see a vareity of minor races along the lines of what you suggested

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 3
Yeah, Galactic Civilizations 2 minor races were basically just free planets to conquest oriented species or free, early trade locations for peaceful races.  They never built a military, they never had any influence on the game, and they always built tons of constructors for reasons that will forever be nebulous.  It would be refreshing to see minor opponents in Elemental that had some real teeth as well as have diplomatic options that aren't of the same flavor as you would with other Channelers.
I realize this topic is going quickly into the "Let's talk about Minors"-direction, but what I'd like for minors is for them to simply be heavily penalized latecomer civilizations that doesn't have a channeler.

In form and function beyond that, they should work just like the regular AI, and make the best of their situation.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 6



Quoting Demiansky,
reply 3
Yeah, Galactic Civilizations 2 minor races were basically just free planets to conquest oriented species or free, early trade locations for peaceful races.  They never built a military, they never had any influence on the game, and they always built tons of constructors for reasons that will forever be nebulous.  It would be refreshing to see minor opponents in Elemental that had some real teeth as well as have diplomatic options that aren't of the same flavor as you would with other Channelers.I realize this topic is going quickly into the "Let's talk about Minors"-direction, but what I'd like for minors is for them to simply be heavily penalized latecomer civilizations that doesn't have a channeler.


In form and function beyond that, they should work just like the regular AI, and make the best of their situation.

That's not really the vision I had for them.  I'd like at least some of them to be very competitive at the beginning or mid games, but hit extreme penalties once they attempt to develop higher.  For instance, a tribe of trolls would have very, very powerful soldiers and even be able to create new villages.  However, they would have excessively slow technological growth and each additional village beyond their capital village would have a very high revolt rate to contend with, causing them to persistently fragment into different tribes that sometimes just end up fighting themselves.  They would basically be competitive rivals for a time, but if you can at leat outlast them, they will eventually succumb.  They also wouldn't have the same "go for the kill" mentality that another channeler would have (trolls would raid cities, but rarely destroy them and never capture them.)

I guess what I'm saying is I don't just want to have the same old opponent types (ie channelers or simply stripped down channelers.)  Granted, I think it's fine if channeler opponents are the most powerful and are the ultimate opponents to overcome, but I'd like to see the world brimming over with exotic opponents with a broad array of strengths and weaknesses.  Imagine the modding potentials if you could create your own opponent types?   

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 7
I guess what I'm saying is I don't just want to have the same old opponent types (ie channelers or simply stripped down channelers.)  Granted, I think it's fine if channeler opponents are the most powerful and are the ultimate opponents to overcome, but I'd like to see the world brimming over with exotic opponents with a broad array of strengths and weaknesses.  Imagine the modding potentials if you could create your own opponent types?   

I completely agree with you. And this thread is just screaming for this link. Geoff!

Where is Jonny5446?

Reply #9 Top

Stardock is going to make a campaign for this game. The most important efforts will go to the rules for that campaign that will, surely, make the core (if not all) of the rules for skirmish/multiplayer.

1. Armed City States: Good idea. That the world is devastated doesn't mean that a few city states could have survived due to location, for example. Without a Channeler to expand good land magically, the only ways to expand would be by force conquering other city states or villages. But the city states depend on if they could have access to mines/forests for the resources needed for some kind of decent army... Tribemen using stones and wooden spears doesn't sound too "city state"esque to me. But I like the idea anyways.

2. Dragon Clutches: No. Doesn't sound like how Frogboy portrays dragons in the post cataclysm Altaria.

3. Bandit Lords and Robber Barons: Lets not forget that they should have their lair somewhere. So you could stop them by destroying it (and maybe get some lot for it). If not, just an event.

4. Hordes: Hmmmm Sounds like "hordes" are what the survivors are in this game. They live in small tribes, some more barbaric than others (hunters/gatherers, some may still retain the art of farming if land allows some even if small), and they may be attracked by the security offered by the Channeler. Some of them may be able to unite themselves for a short period of time in case of a common threat or easy raid target.

5. Monstrous Tribes: There is a beast faction or something like that so makes sense the part of monstruous tribes. The population control comes from scarce resources (food, water, whatever vital thing for their existence) and/or violent nature and/or predations/disasters. They might or might not be hostile forces per se but suppose a threat because of historical events, cultural differences and other different reasons only bypassed by the most skilled diplomats/merchants (with proper goods to trade/bribe).

For the record, I hate "free planets" concept.

Reply #10 Top

4. Hordes: Hmmmm Sounds like "hordes" are what the survivors are in this game. They live in small tribes, some more barbaric than others (hunters/gatherers, some may still retain the art of farming if land allows some even if small), and they may be attracked by the security offered by the Channeler. Some of them may be able to unite themselves for a short period of time in case of a common threat or easy raid target.

Remember: You will grow your city mainly by attracting immagrents, so it seems like there would provide a good place for the immafgrents to be from...

Reply #11 Top

Where is Jonny5446?

Very good question, and right-on call to reference the Wild Spaces thread.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting GW, reply 11

Where is Jonny5446?

Very good question, and right-on call to reference the Wild Spaces thread.

I was wondering that when I was reading the "how do you rank in the community" thread.  Just because he used to be very common, but not as much recently.  (he was missing from a lot of the "top 24" lists, and I thought "huh, if this had been 3 months ago I bet he'd be on there")

Reply #13 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 12
I was wondering that when I was reading the "how do you rank in the community" thread.  Just because he used to be very common, but not as much recently.  (he was missing from a lot of the "top 24" lists, and I thought "huh, if this had been 3 months ago I bet he'd be on there")
Yeah, but now we have all these new guys cramping our style.

^_^

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 10
Remember: You will grow your city mainly by attracting immagrants, so it seems like there would provide a good place for the immafgrants to be from...
No way. All my citizens will be home-grown, well-bred Ursans.

:hrmph:

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 13

Quoting landisaurus, reply 12I was wondering that when I was reading the "how do you rank in the community" thread.  Just because he used to be very common, but not as much recently.  (he was missing from a lot of the "top 24" lists, and I thought "huh, if this had been 3 months ago I bet he'd be on there")Yeah, but now we have all these new guys cramping our style.


Quoting Scoutdog, reply 10Remember: You will grow your city mainly by attracting immagrants, so it seems like there would provide a good place for the immafgrants to be from...No way. All my citizens will be home-grown, well-bred Ursans.

 

Huehueheueh

I remember when Blizzard showed all 4 races from Warcraft 3 and said that they will not ship the 5th unannounced race. There was lots of discussions about it, and people were really believing that race was pandas =)

Reply #15 Top

Quoting katabroc, reply 14
Huehueheueh

I remember when Blizzard showed all 4 races from Warcraft 3 and said that they will not ship the 5th unannounced race. There was lots of discussions about it, and people were really believing that race was pandas :)
Hmm.. Half-Men/Half-Pandas would make for one hell of a Fallen racial grouping.

:D

Reply #16 Top

Like 1, 3, 4 and some of 5. 

Reply #17 Top

[...]

2. Dragon Clutches: A group of dragons that live together, typically a group of males or a female and her offspring.  They can either be noble benefactors that fight evil empires or wicked manipulators that shake down other opponents for tribute.  Sometimes, human worshippers or followers can start settlements at the base of their dens.  Either way, they can be negotiated with in a fashion that is limited (while you couldn't make a formal trade treaty, you could forge alliances, or call on them for mercenaries, etc.) 

[...]

I don't mind the idea per see - I could definately see small settlements of uncivilized human worshippers gathering around a dragon. But with the portrayal of dragons in Elemental being what it is, you will definately not see groups of dragons.

Dragons in Elemental will be forces of nature. Enormously powerful behemoths capable of taking out entire minor civilizations by themselves. It has been said that should a player managed to control three-or-so dragons, it will be game over for whomever he's facing.

Dragons are immense. As I've come to understand it, they easily rival the strength of channelers and unless a channeller is very powerful, he should beware, least he face the wrath of the dragonkin.

Reply #18 Top

Yeah a clutch would be way too much.  Especially if they lived to age a bit (Depending on if they can age, which they shouldn't be able to do unless the game lasts 5,000 turns.)

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 17




quoting post
[...]

2. Dragon Clutches: A group of dragons that live together, typically a group of males or a female and her offspring.  They can either be noble benefactors that fight evil empires or wicked manipulators that shake down other opponents for tribute.  Sometimes, human worshippers or followers can start settlements at the base of their dens.  Either way, they can be negotiated with in a fashion that is limited (while you couldn't make a formal trade treaty, you could forge alliances, or call on them for mercenaries, etc.) 


[...]

I don't mind the idea per see - I could definately see small settlements of uncivilized human worshippers gathering around a dragon. But with the portrayal of dragons in Elemental being what it is, you will definately not see groups of dragons.


Dragons in Elemental will be forces of nature. Enormously powerful behemoths capable of taking out entire minor civilizations by themselves. It has been said that should a player managed to control three-or-so dragons, it will be game over for whomever he's facing.

Dragons are immense. As I've come to understand it, they easily rival the strength of channelers and unless a channeller is very powerful, he should beware, least he face the wrath of the dragonkin.

Well, certain dragons can be "immensely" powerful without being so few that it's impossible for them to maintain an effective breeding population (are we to assume that they are going extinct at the time the game is played?)  It could just be that most of the ancient dragons who have ammased great power have been killed, slumber most of their late years, or that dragons very rarely reach great power because they have plenty of time to be felled.  Young adult dragons, who have started a clutch to raise young, can still be powerful but manageable, and that's more of what I had envisioned for a dragon clutch as being a powerful minor opponent.  Just because most of a dragon population might be filled with younger individuals doesn't make an ancient dragon any less awesome.  Only having behemoths appear in every few games or so just seems contrived to me.  I hate it when beasts or monsters are simplified to such a degree that they only exist to be slain or gawked at (for instance, the monsters that sit around in a dungeon with nothing to do except wait for adventurers.  Don't they have to breed and eat?)  

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 19
... Well, certain dragons can be "immensely" powerful without being so few that it's impossible for them to maintain an effective breeding population (are we to assume that they are going extinct at the time the game is played?)  ... I hate it when beasts or monsters are simplified to such a degree that they only exist to be slain or gawked at (for instance, the monsters that sit around in a dungeon with nothing to do except wait for adventurers.  Don't they have to breed and eat?)  

Right after an Integrated Metaphysics dev journal, I want some details on the dragons. I'm stoked by the 'force of nature' approach Brad mentioned at least once. The early concept art we've seen looks like it follows the European dragon traditions, but the phrase 'force of nature' makes me think immediately of the Asian traditions, hence my desire to see one big enough to wrap itself around a small walled city.

Eye-candy thoughts aside, the business of dragging dragons down into the biological muck seems to be a 20th century thing, driven mostly by a combo of Anne McCaffrey's Pern stories and role-playing games like D&D. IMO, the idea of 'breeding groups' of dragons is more or less an annoying simplification, while having a small set of specific entities who are all dragons could be the foundation of a larger system of independent powers.

To answer your last question bluntly, no, they don't need to breed and eat. They might like to eat sometimes (enemies, tasty jewels, juicy cattle, whatever...), but it's a fantasy game, so they only need to eat if the devs want them to have that need.

Reply #21 Top

True. One thing I would like to see it true dragons, which are forces of nature, and some sort of lesser reptile-like entity that still vaguely resembles a dragon, in appearance if not power. These lesser beings are still "mortal" in GWSicord's sense of the word, and can be a sort of minor opponent. Maybe even some sort of animosity/relatiobship between them and the real dragons.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 21
True. One thing I would like to see it true dragons, which are forces of nature, and some sort of lesser reptile-like entity that still vaguely resembles a dragon, in appearance if not power. These lesser beings are still "mortal" in GWSicord's sense of the word, and can be a sort of minor opponent. Maybe even some sort of animosity/relatiobship between them and the real dragons.

Hmmm. Maybe something like wyverns as a sort of dragon-derived analog to the Fallen? Critters like that would give the LotR-mod Nazgul something to ride in the late game, if we get to have flying units of some sort.

Reply #23 Top

I was thinking of the name "firedrake", or maybe just "drake", but you've got the idea down.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting GW, reply 20



Quoting Demiansky,
reply 19
... Well, certain dragons can be "immensely" powerful without being so few that it's impossible for them to maintain an effective breeding population (are we to assume that they are going extinct at the time the game is played?)  ... I hate it when beasts or monsters are simplified to such a degree that they only exist to be slain or gawked at (for instance, the monsters that sit around in a dungeon with nothing to do except wait for adventurers.  Don't they have to breed and eat?)  


Right after an Integrated Metaphysics dev journal, I want some details on the dragons. I'm stoked by the 'force of nature' approach Brad mentioned at least once. The early concept art we've seen looks like it follows the European dragon traditions, but the phrase 'force of nature' makes me think immediately of the Asian traditions, hence my desire to see one big enough to wrap itself around a small walled city.

Eye-candy thoughts aside, the business of dragging dragons down into the biological muck seems to be a 20th century thing, driven mostly by a combo of Anne McCaffrey's Pern stories and role-playing games like D&D. IMO, the idea of 'breeding groups' of dragons is more or less an annoying simplification, while having a small set of specific entities who are all dragons could be the foundation of a larger system of independent powers.

To answer your last question bluntly, no, they don't need to breed and eat. They might like to eat sometimes (enemies, tasty jewels, juicy cattle, whatever...), but it's a fantasy game, so they only need to eat if the devs want them to have that need.

An immersive game requires immersive answers.  Wiggling your fingers and saying "it's because of maaaaaagic" every time someone demands a deeper explanation doesn't create a living, breathing, immersive world, it kills it.  The term fantasy shouldn't be used as a loophole to get a story's creater off the hook every time they happen to be lacking in imagination.  I'm not necessarily concerned with every monster having a true-to-life biology, but what I am concerned with is monsters having purpose as well as an origin to their existance, including dragons.  In Master of Magic (which I still play in Dosbox!) scores of monsters, some of which were capable of toppling entire nations, sat around in dungeons and ruins with no apparent purpose what-so-ever, waiting to be dispatched and yield their treasure.  I find this insufficient, and I would hope there is a little more detail in Elemental. 

Where do they come from?  Do they breed, or are they created by a natural or unnatural force?  What is their objective (reproducing, ancient guardians, a manifistation of primal malice that has been loosed on the world?)  Are they thralls of another creature, and if so, what is THEIR purpose behind whatever it is they do?  None of these answers have to be super detailed, but at least some kind of activity on a monster's part beyond sitting around in a dungeon can at least give the illusion that they have some sort of purpose. 

As for dragons, there can be plenty of explanations as to how they come into being and their purpose.  Perhaps there were once many, but only the oldest and strongest survived the cataclysm.  Perhaps they spring up from eddies of essence or outcasts from other worlds.  Any explanation will due, as long as it is consistent with the rest of the setting.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Demiansky, reply 24
...An immersive game requires immersive answers.  Wiggling your fingers and saying "it's because of maaaaaagic" every time someone demands a deeper explanation doesn't create a living, breathing, immersive world, it kills it. 

I couldn't agree more with the first part, and the finger-wiggling crack is just plain silly. I made direct reference to the wide range of really old dragon lore already in the world specifically to note that there's a lot more to be said about dragons than you might find in Pern stories or the Monster Manual. (And I'm not trying to be snide with either reference; I've read lots of McCaffrey and played lots of D&D, although it isn't my favorite RPG system.)

Anyway, I'm very, very interested in seeing Elemental take a big step forward from GalCiv2 in terms of providing an immersive story layer. That's among the primary reasons I dislike the idea of 'critter-like' dragons and prefer that they be deeply magical, semi-immortal, force-of-nature type things. That latter route provides many more options for depth than treating them simply as a very rare, very dangerous species in the same general category you'd find killer whales or velociraptors.

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