Taxing The Rich

 

Exchanging ideas is essential to a free society. However, when on the tax system a letter writer who is a math teacher says the government ought not to penalize taxpayers who are wealthy owes to free speech the entire equation. The tax system does not nor should it consider a simplistic proportion as the writer advocates, for it is just another flat tax scam that sees no unfairness to one percentage fits all. Progressive tax is based on taxable income meaning income after one has had the ability and means to take care of himself reasonably well.

It is this differentiation between minimum essentials and play money left over that drives the concept of progressive tax. High income brackets are being taxed theoretically on nonessential income—income beyond basic creature comfort— but this is not as severe as it reads. In an enlightened society, even during the 90+% FDR era, loopholes were abundant for such things as capital gains, second homes, mortgage interest and real estate taxes, but primarily for business large and small to reinvest in their activity to maintain and create jobs, thus growing the economy.

As for charities the writer is worried about, FDR implied if you don’t extend the benefactor hand, the government will. That is why since then there have been so many partnerships of government and foundations that have substantially made life better for those in need.

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Reply #1 Top

"progressive" taxation is no different than any other bigoted class warfare scheme.

You can't have class warfare without bigotry. 

Reply #2 Top

I'm a bit puzzled why you (rightly) point to disposable income being a key reason for a progressive tax system, yet then describe a flat rate as being "just another flat tax scam that sees no unfairness to one percentage fits all". The flat rate, if executed properly, is in some ways the best implimentation of the disposable income argument.

That is, as people we need to spend a certain amount of money to survive. Thus a tax system that will tax you on income earned above this level (i.e. non-essential/luxury income) but won't take away the essential stuff you need to survive is generally seen as a good thing. It's the reason for progressive taxes - the rich can afford to pay more than the poor, since with the rich it may mean they have to cut back on a luxury, while with the poor it'd mean they'd have to cut back on things they need for survival. However if this is the main focus, a flat rate achieves this better. With a flat rate, if you put in a tax-free initial amount that is equal to the amount a person needs to survive, then you won't tax any 'essential' income, and will then equally tax everyone's 'luxury' income at the same rate.

Sadly though progressive tax rates are also I think down to envy. In some cases people would rather see a rich persons income lowered even if it has no effect on their own income, just because it means the difference is less. Similarly, because the rich can pay far more, it is thought they should pay far more, without full realisation of the implications (the rich can pay more, but if they do they're less likely to make as much money in the first place, hurting everyone).

Another argument for progressive taxes is that while the biggest difference in the value of $1 to a person will be between the 'essential' level of income and the 'luxury' level (i.e. someone still needing to obtain an essential will place a much higher value on that $1 than someone who has all the essentials and now wants to obtain a luxury), there is again a difference between the luxuries - someone who just has enough to cover the essentials and can afford almost no luxuries will value the $1 more than someone able to afford lots of luxuries. Hence progressive taxes can try to take that into account by increasing the tax on those earning the most far beyond the level needed to take into account essentials. It can mean that on aggregate people are better off (when weighting the value of those $1's for each person), even if the aggregate $ between all those people is less.

Reply #3 Top

Our definitions of words like 'poor' and 'necessity' and 'essential' have become rather skewed.  If you ask me, cell phones & big screen TV's fail to qualify as either essential or necessary, but a helluva lot of the 'poor' have them.

And it's going to be increasingly tough finding enough rich folk to tax in an economy that is shrinking by 6.1%.  Until BO removes the threat of confiscatory taxes, those with the fuel for an economic recovery are gonna be pretty much sittin on it.

Reply #4 Top

why do all of you continue to permote an out of date tax system there is no way to make the united states tax system proper and fair to anybody or for anybody todays tax system needs to be replaced checkout the videos at you tube.com then listen to jdcriveau and hear what he is saying about our tax system then think would that be a man i would want; who would protect me from the voltures within washington d.c.  yes listen to jdcriveau at youtube.com and then ask your self who do i want to work for this country a politician a lawyer or an americian that is your choice you all have a nice day

jdcriveau

Reply #5 Top

Another argument for progressive taxes is that while the biggest difference in the value of $1 to a person will be between the 'essential' level of income and the 'luxury' level (i.e. someone still needing to obtain an essential will place a much higher value on that $1 than someone who has all the essentials and now wants to obtain a luxury), there is again a difference between the luxuries - someone who just has enough to cover the essentials and can afford almost no luxuries will value the $1 more than someone able to afford lots of luxuries. Hence progressive taxes can try to take that into account by increasing the tax on those earning the most far beyond the level needed to take into account essentials. It can mean that on aggregate people are better off (when weighting the value of those $1's for each person), even if the aggregate $ between all those people is less.
This is a fine stance.

Somewhere else i did write that I support a flat tax, that is, however incrementally progressive too. The reason is that there should be a surtax above and beyond the greater tax of a luxury item  precisely to dramatize the essential and non-essential. :beer:

Reply #6 Top

And it's going to be increasingly tough finding enough rich folk to tax in an economy that is shrinking by 6.1%. Until BO removes the threat of confiscatory taxes, those with the fuel for an economic recovery are gonna be pretty much sittin on it.
How is it Ike was comfortable with 90+% taxation?--not that anyone ever really paid that much.  I guess he was shell-shocked on D-Day. I have come around to the flat tax without any tax shelters whatsoever, along with a slight bump in marginal rates.

Reply #7 Top

How is it Ike was comfortable with 90+% taxation?

Different time, different everything.

I have come around to the flat tax without any tax shelters whatsoever, along with a slight bump in marginal rates.

I'd be fine with that - anything to make paying taxes simple & transparent (being the term du jour).  It's a lock, however, that if such a plan ever came to pass, there would be supplicants at the Capitol steps begging for exceptions within a gnat's heartbeat.

Reply #8 Top

So why bother working? Work harder, get an education for what? T give it to someone that won't do the same? The government will make sure we have all we need. Or here's an idea, just make everyone a slave so their is no disposable income. Just like the Democrat plantation owners  (yeah their still around in DC, their plantations are just nationwide now and the new slaves get entitlements) Pre-Civil War, master will give us all we can handle and if we is good we is not gonna get a whippin. Mater knows best. Happy days are here again.

It's kind of like in the movie the "Matrix". The one character wanted to be hooked back into the illusion of the matrix, where all his needs were met, all in ignorant bliss. It's amazing how many people vote for the government to do their thinking, provide food/shelter, keep them healthy. It's a zombie culture we have today, Do just the minimum to get by and hope somebody is paying my share.

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Reply #9 Top

As someone who worked 87 hours last week, it kind of sucks knowing that 40+ of those hours were for the government. 

Of course, no one forces me to work 87 hours but if I didn't I'd have to lay off quite a few people because of the "wealth" I generate due to my particular skillset that is required during those occasional crunch weeks.

Reply #10 Top

The reason why we have the progressive taxes we do now and why the taxes are as high as they are on the rich is that they are much more likely to find every loophole in the book in order to get out of paying taxes, which there are quite a few. The only way a flat rate tax would work is if you didn't allow these loopholes in the first place. Tax all income over x amount equally all the way up with no way to duck out of it and it might work. However, then you'll run into the problem of people just not reporting income at all.

Realistically the current system is the best at the moment. Hopefully a better system can be devised, but until then this is our best option. I would love to see everyone taxed equally all across the board, and the government would get more from taxes as well, but it won't work unless we have the means to enforce it which is currently beyond their capabilites.

Reply #11 Top

there would be supplicants at the Capitol steps begging for exceptions within a gnat's heartbeat.
yeah, especially interest on home mortgages.:annoyed:

Reply #12 Top

The reason why we have the progressive taxes we do now and why the taxes are as high as they are on the rich is that they are much more likely to find every loophole in the book in order to get out of paying taxes, which there are quite a few.
Agreed, a very big problem, especially in light of the average bloke can barely meet the IRA deduction, let alone big ticket shelters. 

Reply #13 Top

Of course, no one forces me to work 87 hours but if I didn't I'd have to lay off quite a few people because of the "wealth" I generate due to my particular skillset that is required during those occasional crunch weeks.
It's nice to see someone doing so well in these trying times. Still, I think you are entitled to a vacation.

Reply #14 Top

where all his needs were met, all in ignorant bliss. It's amazing how many people vote for the government to do their thinking, provide food/shelter, keep them healthy. It's a zombie culture we have today, Do just the minimum to get by and hope somebody is paying my share.
Oh, my such cynicism. Lions, and tigers and bears out there, oh, my!

Reply #15 Top

tax only spending (high sales tax), and make that differ based on the item being purchased. a person with more "non essential income" according to the charts might end up buying more food because he eats a lot, while the other with supposedly lower income spends most his money on cigarettes for example.

If you REALLY want to go for the essential, have a REALLY heavy tax rate and give food coupons and housing stamps to EVERYONE (from poorest to richest), the assumption is that everyone is gonna pay for housing and food, they might as well be guarenteed those two for "progressiveness" while maintaining a flat taxrate.

EX: cigaretes, yachets, booze, jewlery, will have a high tax rate. other items will have medium tax rate, groceries and college will have no tax. All those will be flat percent taxes, so they cost the same no matter how rich you are, but every person gets 500$ in coupons a month towards food and housing. Enough to SHARE an apartment and buy groceries. You work to have luxuries like a place for yourself or nicer stuff or TV, computer, etc... to avoid it being a harmful wealth redistribution scheme, you CANNOT Tax people based on income brackets, and YOU MUST give that basic service to ANYONE, even bill gates gets 500$ a month towards basic necessities. (which you can obviously add to)

But you can just say to hell with "progressiveness" and do away with the coupons

Reply #16 Top

tax only spending (high sales tax), and make that differ based on the item being purchased.

You do realize that currently there is only a 2% tax on food items while there is a 7% tax on most everything else and well the gasoline tax I won't even post cause it's outrageous. It's being done in a way already. *cough*

Reply #17 Top

  

*cough*
Is this meant for smokers who pay over $3.50 a pack in tax? 8(|

Reply #18 Top

Quoting stevendedalus, reply 17
Is this meant for smokers who pay over $3.50 a pack in tax? 

lol, could be.

Reply #19 Top

The reason why we have the progressive taxes we do now and why the taxes are as high as they are on the rich is that they are much more likely to find every loophole in the book in order to get out of paying taxes, which there are quite a few. The only way a flat rate tax would work is if you didn't allow these loopholes in the first place. Tax all income over x amount equally all the way up with no way to duck out of it and it might work. However, then you'll run into the problem of people just not reporting income at all.

Realistically the current system is the best at the moment. Hopefully a better system can be devised, but until then this is our best option. I would love to see everyone taxed equally all across the board, and the government would get more from taxes as well, but it won't work unless we have the means to enforce it which is currently beyond their capabilites.

Can you tell me some of these loopholes? I have a big 8 accounting firm doing my taxes and I still ended up paying over a million in personal taxes last year. Thanks.

Reply #20 Top

 that sees no unfairness to one percentage fits all

Pardon me, but I don't see the unfairness either; unless you are referring to the fact that some people are still contributing more than others.

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/301955/The_right_the_left_and_the_middle_on_taxation

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 19


Can you tell me some of these loopholes? I have a big 8 accounting firm doing my taxes and I still ended up paying over a million in personal taxes last year. Thanks.

If you pay over a million dollars in personal taxes, even with a standard deduction rather than itemized, I don't think you have a thing to worry about. In that tax bracket you are taxed at about 35% of your income if no deductions are taken. So you're claiming to have made over 35 million dollars personally for the year. If so then I don't really know how a million in taxes would hurt you that bad. Feel free to look on IRS's website for tax deduction information or simply look it up on Google if you're curious.

Reply #22 Top

I'd disagree on the loopholes being an argument for increasing the tax rate.

Too often loopholes (and tax avoidance) are the convenient excuse, the easy target. People think it means that rich people are getting out of paying taxes that they ought to, often without fully understanding just what a loophole is. In particular the use of the phrase tax avoidance is used by politicians and those advocating higher taxes in such a way as to imply they view it as tax evasion.

Firstly avoidance vs evasion. Evasion is basically breaking the law - you're meant to pay taxes, but you don't (e.g. you report your income as far below what it was). Avoidance however is using legal means to legitimately reduce your tax bill.

Now on to the loopholes/avoidance issue. Lets say the government wants to encourage individuals to give money to charity. To encourage this, they allow any donations to count as an expense for tax purposes. So if you run a business and you make $100k revenue, and against that you have costs of business of $50k, and you then give $10k to charity, you're taxed on $40k rather than $50k. This would count as tax avoidance though - you're avoiding paying taxes on that $10k. However, close that tax avoidance system and you've just removed a major incentive for people to donate money. The tax system can be used in numerous other ways to provide incentives for people to do things, and inevitably when you do this, you will both allow people to avoid paying taxes, and have unintended consequences where people who you didn't at first think of will also use such incentives to cut their taxes.

Now loopholes also covers not just tax avoidance, but unintended consequences of legislation. That is the government might bring into effect some complicated law that they think will cause people to pay taxes in situation X but allow them to avoid paying them in situation Y, but it actually allows people in situations Y and Z to avoid paying taxes. Now where should the blame lie here, with the people in situation Z taking advantage of a 'loophole' to legitimately reduce paying their taxes, or the people who created that loophole in the first place, the government? Furthermore when looking to fix this problem, do you think people in situations A-X should be punished with a higher level of tax because people in situation Z are managing to pay less than they should, or do you think the loophole itself should be looked at? Also if you do increase the tax rate more, you increase the tax that those people will pay if they carry on as before, and hence increase the incentive for them to use a tax advisor who specialises in finding ways to reduce the tax they pay legitimately [i.e. uses loopholes/tax avoidance], meaning you actually then increase the problem!

This suggests of course that the solution to loopholes is even more legislation to cover them. However past history has shown that governments aren't exactly competant when it comes to taxes, and for every problem they try to fix, two more can spring up in it's place. In many ways just creating a very simple tax system with very few 'incentive' (or avoidance) items in it, and looking at the tax system overall (for example not focusing solely on taxes on income while ignoring capital gains, and hence giving a strong incentive for people to try and make normal income count as a capital gain, or vice versa) would solve many of these problems. This is, incidently, another bonus point for a flat rate system - it's far simpler, so not only will it be less costly for people to deal with, but the government might also get a better idea of how it works and so create fewer loopholes in the first place.

Reply #23 Top

If you pay over a million dollars in personal taxes, even with a standard deduction rather than itemized, I don't think you have a thing to worry about. In that tax bracket you are taxed at about 35% of your income if no deductions are taken. So you're claiming to have made over 35 million dollars personally for the year.

Your math is backwards. 1 million is not 35% of 35 million, it's 1% of 35 million. Paying a million in taxes at 35% rate would make a gross income of under 3 million.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting mommie4life, reply 21


Frogboyreply 19
Can you tell me some of these loopholes? I have a big 8 accounting firm doing my taxes and I still ended up paying over a million in personal taxes last year. Thanks.

If you pay over a million dollars in personal taxes, even with a standard deduction rather than itemized, I don't think you have a thing to worry about. In that tax bracket you are taxed at about 35% of your income if no deductions are taken. So you're claiming to have made over 35 million dollars personally for the year. If so then I don't really know how a million in taxes would hurt you that bad. Feel free to look on IRS's website for tax deduction information or simply look it up on Google if you're curious.

Well, I pay 35% on most of my income to the federal government plus another 4% to the state plus 6% sales tax plus property taxes so we're pretty much at 50% right there.

I certainly do take as many deductions as I can.  But you claimed there are loopholes that keep me from having to pay taxes. So I am asking you to name these loopholes.  Being quite familiar with the tax system (I am effectively our company's acting CFO as well) and working with a big 8 accounting firm on a regular basis, I feel qualified to say that there are no legal loopholes that would allow someone like to to skip out on paying a lot in taxes.

As for your question asking how a million dollars in taxes "hurts me", my answer is, on what basis do you consider yourself qualified to decide what the "correct" amount of hurt is in taxes?  Do I drive on special roads? Do I get special police protection?  

Historically, money is exchanged for goods and services.  But you seem to imply that money should be exchanged based on who is most capable of producing it to those who are the most successful in getting the government to believe that they have an inherent "need" to that production.

In addition, one only has to make a little over $3 million to pay over a million in federal taxes.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 24


Well, I pay 35% on most of my income to the federal government plus another 4% to the state plus 6% sales tax plus property taxes so we're pretty much at 50% right there.

I certainly do take as many deductions as I can.  But you claimed there are loopholes that keep me from having to pay taxes. So I am asking you to name these loopholes.  Being quite familiar with the tax system (I am effectively our company's acting CFO as well) and working with a big 8 accounting firm on a regular basis, I feel qualified to say that there are no legal loopholes that would allow someone like to to skip out on paying a lot in taxes.

As for your question asking how a million dollars in taxes "hurts me", my answer is, on what basis do you consider yourself qualified to decide what the "correct" amount of hurt is in taxes?  Do I drive on special roads? Do I get special police protection?  

Historically, money is exchanged for goods and services.  But you seem to imply that money should be exchanged based on who is most capable of producing it to those who are the most successful in getting the government to believe that they have an inherent "need" to that production.

In addition, one only has to make a little over $3 million to pay over a million in federal taxes.

Ah, exuse me I didn't realize my slip there. I didn't mean you could completely get out of paying any taxes at all, but there are plenty of loopholes to getout of certain amounts of tax owed, etc. I do appologize that was a slip of the fingers.

Property taxes are determined off of how much property you own and it's market value. If you pay a lot of money in property taxes then you must own a lot of land or a lot of high end properties. If you're talking a total of 1.5 million dollars, I concede my math was off that night sorry, in taxes then you must own some property that has a rather high combined value. If you want to have a big car and fancy house and all the rest whatever it may be, good for you. However most of the people in the country can't afford that.

You're upset because they took a good portion of your income away to pay for things such as roads, military, etc. It's understandable, but the money has to come from somewhere. If they tried to take a million dollars away from me in taxes they'd be pretty hard pressed because I make no where near that much. To you it's an inconvenience, to me it would be a devistation. Do I think that the government spends our tax dollars as wisely as they should, no I'm not saying that, but there are things that they do need to spend money on.

As I said before if they could be able to enforce it a flat tax rate across the board would certainly be more fair, however they don't currently have the means that would be required to enforce it. Honestly, they don't really have the means to enforce it now but enough of us are law abiding that it works at the moment. I wish one day I can say that the governement took a million dollars in taxes from me, because then I wouldn't have to worry about whether or not the bills would get paid next month.