Victory conditions sugguestion, anyone?


In most TBS games, the default victory condition is to destroy all other players.  EWOM should be no exception, as it is very easily understood concept.

However, I/we want multiple victory conditions; these conditions are somewhat easier to achieve in most cases, and more importantly more fun to players because player has to use alternative strategies to execute or spot.

Depending on mapmaker, any game can have 1 to 3 VCs.  I want all VCs hidden to others since turn 1.

In this thread, I'll like to discuss 2 things & like your input so SD devs can see how best to implement this.

1.  What VCs are fun?
(I am proposing some here as starter; but I'll keep only 10 best suggestions at the end the discussion)
a.  Alliance with all fractions at the same time
b.  Keep all essence nodes razed for 3 turns
c.  Cast "spell of Mastery"
d. (Find &) Keep the ultimate artifact for 20 turns.  (Its location is automatically known to evreyone somce turn 1 & thereafter)

2.  How/When to display ones' VC progress to other players?
a.  If SD devs don't think it is all-important, I'll say the crude way to do it is to announce/display the VC to all players whenever anyone reaches 75% progress on any of their VC goals.
b.  landisaurus' suggestion of "an overland spell that gained more information the longer that it is up.  That way you get pretty direct spell vs. info ratio to which we can give easy feedback to SD about.  The people doing the spying would be identifiable and countering would be through whatever disjunction means normally available"
quoted from reply #5 of https://forums.elementalgame.com/341351
c.  Any better/fun/strategic alternative??

70,862 views 34 replies
Reply #1 Top


In most TBS games, the default victory condition is to destroy all other players.  EWOM should be no exception, as it is very easily understood concept.

However, I/we want multiple victory conditions; these conditions are somewhat easier to achieve in most cases, and more importantly more fun to players because player has to use alternative strategies to execute or spot.

Depending on mapmaker, any game can have 1 to 3 VCs.  I want all VCs hidden to others since turn 1.

In this thread, I'll like to discuss 2 things & like your input so SD devs can see how best to implement this.

1.  What VCs are fun?
(I am proposing some here as starter; but I'll keep only 10 best suggestions at the end the discussion)
a.  Alliance with all fractions at the same time
b.  Keep all essence nodes razed for 3 turns
c.  Cast "spell of Mastery"
d.  ??

2.  How/When to display ones' VC progress to other players?
a.  If SD devs don't think it is all-important, I'll say the crude way to do it is to announce/display the VC to all players whenever anyone reaches 75% progress on any of their VC goals.
b.  landisaurus' suggestion of "an overland spell that gained more information the longer that it is up.  That way you get pretty direct spell vs. info ratio to which we can give easy feedback to SD about.  The people doing the spying would be identifiable and countering would be through whatever disjunction means normally available"
quoted from reply #5 of https://forums.elementalgame.com/341351
c.  Any better/fun/strategic alternative??

1a. God no

b. are they razeable? should they be? Maybe ownership of all (or X% of) essence node for Y turns..

c. definitely

d. Obviously being the last man standing

e. quest victory

2.a should only be available with a high level of espionage and even then should be iffy on accuracy.

b. yep I like this idea.

c. I think as you work thru the quest victory path, esp towards the last 50% or so, quest NPC's should tell you what other players have spoken to them and roughly how long ago. (Not to say that players HAVE to talk to the same NPCs to do the quest by any means - just that IOF you spoke to an NPC that had given directions or whatever to another player they *might* let that info drop - maybe with a little coin to loosen their tongues - i.e. they might hint that they had spoken to another sovereign's representative, and then haggle with you for the price of further info - maybe even lying if you are too cheap! O:)

Reply #2 Top

If alliances actually mean something, there's nothing wrong with a.  They need to require serious work to create though, civ4 style work.

Reply #3 Top

additional idea:  infect everybody in the world with a magical disease (is spread by combat, spells, and trade)

generic idea:  Have control of over 70% of the world's magic

 

 

unvictory condition (like in zombie Flux or Arcum horror, everybody loses):   The world's magic becomes unst able again and a new cataclysm occurs. (a certain magic limit or essence level is reached on a global scale)

This time, there was no arc > somebody castse "global flooding" but nobody has any boats with settlers on them (or floating cities)

A very mass event occurs (the coming of cathulu for example) and nobody does anything to stop it (either activating all the magic nodes/shards to re:seal the gate, or fighting off the preliminary deamons that would capture and activate magic nodes themselves to power the portal to hell, or something like that)

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Reply #4 Top

I do like the everyone loses condition- that could give players who are on the wrong end of the slippery slope something to shoot for.

 

Reply #5 Top

I'd like to see some Unvictory possibilities as well--I guess those might be sort of Giga-Events, maybe another checkbox to clear for some players during game setup.

I'd also like to see some way to make the Last Faction Standing thing an Unvictory, maybe via back story for (some) human factions and/or a faction's 'Victory Quest.' Just because that's always the way TBS has gone in the past doesn't mean it has to keep on like that.

(This is sort of connected to my obssession with getting Honor mechanics in the game--I'm wondering if we could get faction AIs that will reliably play for an alliance win and perhaps be counted on never to go on a scorched-earth campaign. Bad guys seem more bad when good guys are actually good, unlike the 'Good' civs in GalCiv2.)

Reply #6 Top

The "everybody loses" possibility is an interesting one, but it might be tough to program the AI so it would be able to intelligently weigh the "I don't want to lose" option versus the "I think somebody else will take care of this problem so I'll go on pursuing my own goals" option.

 

I think the "capture all enemy towns" option is a bit lame.  As Brad said back when they were first talking about 4x games, by the time you control 50% of the map, the exponential growth dynamic takes over, and you spend the last half of the game just enforcing what is a foregone conclusion.

Maybe they plan to get around this by allowing somebody to cast a Spell of Mastery, or retrieve the Crown of Armageddon, just as you're about to conquer his last town.

I think there are some interesting possibilities for specific Victory Conditions in particular scenarios that might lie outside the standard realm (e.g., "Raise the siege on your allies across the board"), but the standard victory conditions might go as follows:

  1. Conquer all
  2. Find the Ultimate Artifact
  3. Quest victory
  4. Spell of Mastery

Given those 4 paths, I think it would work OK.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting FarAway, reply 6
The "everybody loses" possibility is an interesting one, but it might be tough to program the AI so it would be able to intelligently weigh the "I don't want to lose" option versus the "I think somebody else will take care of this problem so I'll go on pursuing my own goals" option. ...

That's the problem with a forum like this. All the really fun ideas run the risk of being confronted with common sense. :P

Reply #8 Top

Cool! Quite a few submissions here!

1a.  Any player needs to bribe to get an alliance.  Breaking an alliance should mean automatic war (say after 15 turns) and expelling all units from its country,  or some kind of penalty to the violating side etc.

1b. Why not razable?  It'll be even better that if some structures can never be rebuilt, e.g. essence node.  Scorch earth is very painful then.

2a.  I am bored with Spying if it is implemented with only a spying screen.  I won't mind CIV4 style that you need some kind of spying unit to get into other's country though.   My point is if devs want to keep it simple, it is ok.  But at least keep other player's VC hidden until it is somewhat ready; while also allows other player to spoil.

UnVictory does not sound very different to "spell of mastery".  The only difference is the guy who completed this unvictory  will lose too.  What advantage/fun factor it has compared to spell of mastery?

landisaurus; what exactly is controlling 70% magic? 
everybody with magical disease?  how about the units I just create this turn?

FarAwayGalciv. Finding the ultimate artifact can be fun, I like it!  The artifact can be of little usefulness otherwise; like add 1 hex movement.  But the artifact location is known to everyone at turn 1.  Everyone knows someone in this game need it to win the game, but don't know who that someone is yet.

1d. (Find &) Keep the ultimate artifact for 20 turns.  (Its location is automatically known to evreyone somce turn 1 & thereafter)

My new submission, subject to discussion etc
1e. Consecutively win 50/40/30 battles (depend on map size)
- Other players will try to overwhelm the player for last few ones.

1f. Surrender all battles for 30 turns consecutively
- Once other players know the VC, they will attack knowing he do not want to fight back.

- Assume all units die when surrendering

- A tribute to Ghandi

 

Reply #9 Top

Quoting arstal, reply 4
I do like the everyone loses condition- that could give players who are on the wrong end of the slippery slope something to shoot for.

 

right, it also helps out in that classic comp-stomp scene.  You know, that game you'll probebly play with a 'noob' friend at some point to 'learn the game' or something.   Because it would require some team-work.  If there is a player doing something stupid, you'll have to team up with AI to go kill him.  If there is a great event, enemies will have to band together to fight it off.  And as a team, you and your friend(s) will actually have a mutual goal other than "kill enemy"

I think its a way to help that "when epic hits boring" problem as discussed in another thread.

Reply #10 Top

What about a victory condition like in MOO1 when the council voted in the moo you either agreed with it  or all players decalired war on you.    

Reply #11 Top

One of my favorite strategy games was called Alpha Centauri, by Sid Meier. It was so interesting because of the varied methods one could pursue to achieve victory.

1. Total Conquest. You (and those who are allied in a pact with you) must be the last ones standing. In essence, if you don't agree with me, my friends and I will kill you.

2. Diplomatic victory. You would have to be so well-loved (and have so many people) that in a meeting of the Planetary Council, you would propose that the other factions vote you supreme leader. This method could be done in two ways: paying others off to vote for you, or by being so powerful (wiping out those who would vote 'no' or having so many people to constitute a massive vote) that they could not deny your wisdom.

3. Economic victory. You corner the 'global energy market', in essence, you hold such a monopoly on resources and wealth that none can stand against you. The economy has already been debated in other topics, but if someone totally and completely rules the economy, even if they are faced by powerful magic, they would probably be able to do some horrid things (if your people don't get any trade or money because another faction is angry with you, they may try to revolt). This way, a spellcaster could pursue spells that would ultimately result in an enhanced economy.

4. Scientific victory. Trade off 'scientific' for some other method. For example, give each 'sphere' of magic its own spell of ultimate destruction or perhaps there would be some inter-sphere spell of ultimate destruction (you must pursue knowledge and influence through each elemental power to gain mastery over the final spell) and by achieving this spell, you could either call the game an auto-win, or continue playing and actually wreak havoc with the ultimate spell. This would be a method more inclined to the studious, who would have to do a lot of research to find all of the nit-picky details about the spell.

5. Artifact victory. Something like the Tear of Asha from Heroes of Might and Magic V. I don't like the idea of everyone knowing right away what it is (based on the context, if everyone just randomly discovered a legendary artifact and knew exactly where it was, it wouldn't make a vast amount of sense) and people could have various methods of discovering the location. Do you go to a sooth-sayer or diviner, perhaps the black market, and pay for information? On that hand, will the sooth-sayer/diviner tell you the truth, or will their visions be incorrect? And if a bounty goes out for information, will they really find it, or try to ruin your efforts? Perhaps explorer-types could seek out altars or signs or some other sort of revealing-devices to locate the artifact. Those who are powerful in the ways of magic and research could delve deep into their books, trying to locate the information based on what they have in their libraries. Even a sort of spell that reveals locations (IE: cast a divination spell, and it reveals a shroud of the Fog of War for a turn or so). Those who want to pursue a mixture of means could do so: they would ultimately lose out in those departments (devoting wealth from one area to another means that one area loses out; research and spells take away from their areas, too, and exploration will take time and efforts.)

Other small details...

Instead of razing a node, perhaps it ought have its own unique method of destruction. I mean, if I were a magician, I wouldn't want to smack the source of my vast power with a hammer. Perhaps the magician would have to come -- personally -- to the node, and then drain its essence. Draining a node would give your magician enhanced power (more points to cast with, quickened casting time for spells corresponding to that node, etc.) but it would be very temporary. Say, after ten turns, it will vanish. This could give nodes an alternative sort of use: if you are under a great deal of stress, you could drain the node and gain vast power, at the cost of permanently losing that node. Dropping the bomb, so to speak.

Alliances...again with Alpha Centauri. Alliances were very tricky things in AC - if you sided with person A, or were even friendly with them, then their enemies (henceforth B) would start to hate you. If A and B went to war, A would come to you and absolutely demand that you help, otherwise they will begin to hate you. But, on the other hand, alliances would open up a great deal of trade, give you line of sight into allied territory, and allow you to collaborate battle plans (Alright A, you plan to attack B's trade outpost? I think you should focus on his capital; leave the outpost to me.) which would add depth to the game (like battle-plans in Empire Earth) by allowing you to plot and plan conquering enemy territories. Plus, the longer you go as allies, the more they'll like you.

At the same time, breaking an alliance would probably be a big no-no. Basically, you say "A, you're a bad person, and I don't want to be associated with you." While it probably would not (on its own) lead to open conflict, it would certainly make people not like you a great deal. Plus, breaking alliances often would incur a diplomatic penalty: keep doing it, and people would get wise to not trust you.

Reply #12 Top

landisaurus, I just don't understand your description "If there is a player doing something stupid, you'll have to team up with AI to go kill him."  How does that relate to unvictory condition?

drgraves, that sounds like more related to some kind of United Nation voting then a victory condition.

Nathikal, yes varied method to win the game is interested, that's why I start this thread.  Your suggested 1 is already the default VC.  Your 2 is same as the "1a. Alliance with all fractions" I've mentioned, but your SMAC description of why it is so good is way better than mine!  Your suggestion 4 is same as "1c. spell of Mastery"

Your suggested "3. Economic Victory."  The question instead is how to define when someone achieve economic victory in EWOM?  Maybe the first one who accumulated 50000 gold?  That sounds boring but it might still be fun to play as there may be hard to achieve as other players will try to stop trading with you/start a war when they know you are close to this amount.  Any better suggestion rgds to Economic Victory?

Your suggested "5 artifact victory" is different from "1d".  1d make its location is known by everyone since turn 1 because I want all players keeping it will cause doom to one self because all others player knows (without any effort, or distracted by other priorities they have).  Anyone who are interested the ultimate artifact need to send a killer stack or two to somewhere far far away.  This is already a huge challenge if you are far away from it & he also has to make/break alliance to do so. 

 

Reply #13 Top

This one is simple and fun

Quoting keithLamothe, reply 4
Flying mountain...

 

Move over opponent capital...

 

Neglect to pay upkeep cost on flying enchantment...

 

Also why would the ultimate artifact be known to everyone on turn 1, surely it would be hidden, people could try to find it, if they did its location and a small LOS around it is revealed. To win you have to bring said artifact to your capital and then hold it there for x amount of turns

Reply #14 Top

landisaurus, I just don't understand your description "If there is a player doing something stupid, you'll have to team up with AI to go kill him."  How does that relate to unvictory condition?

Ok, lets say there is a limit to the amount of magic can be active in the form of overland spells or the threads of magic will come overburdened and magic will cease to function.  If Bob (this will be our stupid player) is creating a bunch of these spells, then other players that want overland spell will either have to A: risk messing up the magic for everybody, B: wait for Bob to take his spells down, or C:  kill him.   I suspect A and/or C will be the result (unless Bob is a nice guy and takes down the spells when asked nicely, or they can be forcably removed via disjunction or something)

 

Another example:  periodically  a portal to hell opens up and demons flood the world, unless the mcguffins are collected from around the world and brought to a great temple in the ocean somewhere once every 1000 years.  The number of mcguffins are directly related to the number of channelers left in the world.  Its in everybody's best interest to have their heroes looking for the mcguffins, but Bob isn't helping.   So either A: other players can cover his butt, or B: kill him so there are less to find.

Reply #15 Top

Unvictory is a great idea, especially if the condition isn't automatically available.  Perhaps certain spell paths allow one to just hose the entire world, with the "if I can't have it, no one can" attitude.  To balance things out, such spells could perhaps have a timed or delayed effect, or a gradual, worsening effect.  Alternately, a quest could open up.  The other players would essentially be racing to prevent catastrophe.

Imagine: 4 players.  On turn 1, Player 1 says "I'm just going to ensure everyone loses, and starts the Unmake World quest.  Players 2-4 are notified of this (they would have to, I think, to keep it fun).  Now 2, 3, and 4 team up against 1 just to have a chance at defeating him so that they can squabble over the world the good ol' fashioned way.

Reply #16 Top

 

I have to admit un-victory conditions sound awesome I would love to complete or try to stop someone from completing the zombie apocalypse spell (Brings all deceased humans, monsters, dragons, etc back to life as undead to wreak havoc). I can also think of a few victory conditions I’ve never seen before

 

1. Temporal anomaly victory: Construct a magical gate that sends one hero and his personal bodyguards (some relatively small number) back in time to the very first turn of the game. The hero would only be able to stay back in time for X number of turns after which he would be teleported back to the future. Once in the past the player can attempt to alter the time line of the game for a victory in the future.   

 

2. Duel of fate victory: The remaining Channelers agree to have a tournament of 1 vs 1 duels with the champion winning the game. (No, I haven’t given up on duels yet)

 

3. Anti-magic victory: Create a tower that nullifies and absorbs all magic and essence on the planet including the Channeler who built it. The tower however uses the magic it absorbs to keep the surrounding friendly land healthy while everything else rapidly reverts to post apocalyptic terrain. If the other Channelers can’t stop you within a certain number of turns you win the game.

 

4. Traitor victory: Ally with the opposing factions (if you're regular ally with fallen, if you're fallen ally with regular) and eliminate all factions of your type.

 

5. Essence victory: The Channeler obtains so much essence that he becomes invincible. At some point the Channeler learns/creates a spell, ability, or item that can steal the essence of other Channeler’s adding it to his own.  

 

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Climber, reply 8
Cool! Quite a few submissions here!
UnVictory does not sound very different to "spell of mastery".  The only difference is the guy who completed this unvictory will lose too.  What advantage/fun factor it has compared to spell of mastery?


When you guys start saying that this unvictory condition does not necessary automatically causes all players losing the game, it makes much more sense then.  I’ll try to put it in an alternative perspective here.  I term it as “Global Quest” instead.  These are examples I modified from posts above:

I.    Global Quest: Collect N mcguffins amongst all N players before turn 100, or else 10000 demon units will invade
II.    Global Quest: If there is more than N global spells maintained at any time, magic cease to function for all N players
III.    Global Quest: “World Unmake quest” is now available for all players, anyone who complete it win the game
IV.    (Darko) All deceased monsters/units will come back to life every 50 turns, raiding players randomly
V.    (Darko’s 2) Any player can cede their empire, if he lost a victory of fate duel

Global Quests is a quest available to ALL players to participate/compete.  Some are co-operative, some are competitive.  The quest reward/punishment is always significant to most players.

Other examples of Global Quest:
VI.    50 Archangel are granted to any player who first control 50 Angels
VII.    Whoever annihilate player X, will then be the only one who can cast global spells
VIII.    Sea level will raise and destroy all lowland cities, unless all dungeons are explored by turn 50
IX.    All units has 80% chance to be killed by a sudden epidemic, whenever any player is annihilated
X.    All existing units will turn to undead, if there is any undead on the map at turn 50,100,150,200… etc

There maybe many ways to get these Global quests, the mapmaker/RMG can assign them at turn 0.  Maybe there are “Global Quest” stones that any player who collects 2 of that will randomly change/start the quest.  Maybe it’s a big spell call “Enable a Global Quest”. 

Reply #18 Top

[ignore]

Reply #19 Top

I like all the variety, including the idea of a Nobody Wins end-game scenario. Did anybody 'win' the Cataclysm? Probably not, or we'd have a back story about how all the canon factions are laboring in the shadow of the Great (Horrible) Survivor who helped make the Cataclsym and managed to live through it.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting GW, reply 19
I like all the variety, including the idea of a Nobody Wins end-game scenario. Did anybody 'win' the Cataclysm? Probably not, or we'd have a back story about how all the canon factions are laboring in the shadow of the Great (Horrible) Survivor who helped make the Cataclsym and managed to live through it.

yeah, I was under the impression that the cataclysm was a pretty big "fail" on everybody's part.  because of that, I think that having something like the risk of recreating the cataclysm would really work with Elemental's apparent theme. So unvictory conidition If magic is somehow overused in a bad way.     I'm glad it looks like a lot of people support the idea of an 'everybody loses' condition that would require team-work of some kind to avoid.

Reply #21 Top

An idea of my own- conditional victory conditions. Some of the victorys will be changed depending on the type of map/mod you play.

For example: if you play a one city challenge, your victory condition will be to survive X turns instead of killing your enemies. Your city will lack some of the important resources in the game which will put you down to be the game's underdog, but in exchange you will have a hidden victory that players will know about only too late.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Raledon, reply 21
An idea of my own- conditional victory conditions. Some of the victorys will be changed depending on the type of map/mod you play.

For example: if you play a one city challenge, your victory condition will be to survive X turns instead of killing your enemies. Your city will lack some of the important resources in the game which will put you down to be the game's underdog, but in exchange you will have a hidden victory that players will know about only too late.

Actually this will let your channler get debalancing spells according to brad

Reply #23 Top

It would be nice for there to be vairous "religious" victories, as they allow a great deal of condition freedom. I.e. put X number of buildings or units or reasorces in holy city Y, sacrifice # of enemy warriors at certain locations, and so on.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 23
It would be nice for there to be vairous "religious" victories, as they allow a great deal of condition freedom. I.e. put X number of buildings or units or reasorces in holy city Y, sacrifice # of enemy warriors at certain locations, and so on.

Those sound more like quests than victory/game-ending conditions to me, but maybe one of the ways we'll be able to set up a short game of Elemental is to pick a single quest or small quest series to complete--sort of a mini-version of the grand quest victory we've seen mentioned.

Reply #25 Top

I'd like kind of "UnVictory Victories" except you'd have to fend them off. If you manage to defeat/prevent the UnVictory, play is still allowed. For example, if you and another civillization survived the zombie apocolypse, you could continue fighting until one faction is left.