Starting tips for each race? (2)

I'd like to "unhijack" the other thread with this title started by _Nubilocity_.

The title says it all, and the original thread has not covered it at all, but it was an excellent question.

I would like someone to give an introductory answer to the title. Specifically, a few lines on each of:

  1. Summary of the essential differences between the 3 races? and
  2. How that relates to the (early) strategy you should be adopting as it differs between the 3 races?

Oh, and I play against AI only, not humans!

Let's try to keep this thread to the title.

11,709 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top

My opinion on the three races. There are players who would run me into the ground, so don't take this as being the Gospel truth:

Advent - the slightly "spam" race. They get more ships per fleet capacity (with the exception of phasic transmision for the Vasari, I know) but their frigates tend to be slighlty weaker. Strike craft and culture are their main tactics; the AI will often use the carrier spam (along with a few muluitplayer people as well ;) ) They can increase the basic culture limit by 10%, and their superweapon, the Deliverance Engine, fires a bolt of "your culture" at a planet which will then spread in the normal way. The capital ships are considered to be amongst the best, with their cleansing brillance and malice combinantion able to wipe out large chunks of the enemy fleet, however they lack a powerful bombardment ship, unlike their enemies.

TEC - proably the easist race to learn, they are the easily identifiable humans. They have a balanced range of ships, but are definatly stronger late-game, and can easily get a towel-whipping early on. The capital ships are devastating; the Kol, (the one furthest on the left as your look on your menu) has the highest health of any ship, when it's fully leveled, upgraded and using adaptive forcefield (which can be left on all of the time, anti-matter stores allowing) and their Marza has a level 6 ability called "missile barage" which, if left to fire all missiles, can pretty much destroy anyone, and the raze planet can do a good amount of damage against planets. Their starbase is also good, again it has the highest health of any of the others.

Vasari - the "technical" race. They focus on superior ships, in terms of both health and shields, whilst having a high fleet capacity requirement. As stated above, they can research phasic transmision to increase their fleet cap, Returing Armada, which can be called in from any phase stabiliser (an ability which allows your fleet to jump from one stabilser to another, bypassing any of the normal routes) for free, allowing you to create huge fleets to destroy the enemy. They also get powerful LRM frigates, armed with phase missiles, which can bypass shields, and their colony capital ship can take a huge chunk out of planet health with their level 6 ability

Comments? Criticisms? (there'll be plenty :D ) Questions?

 

Reply #2 Top

Well, I play TEC for the most part, so I'll comment on them the most. The TEC have the easiest acces to big economy. If you want to go for big credits (and, using the "favoured client" upgrade you can use that to get all the metal and crystal you need), the TEC are your friend. Culture is not something the TEC bother with early in the game, but they do get a nice AM regen boost from culture, which is a very good bonus. As for scouting: the TEC have a very good scout ship early in the game, because it can get sensor modules that can keep tabs on enemy planets for a very long time. Later in the game, they aren't so hot anymore (the advent scouts get the advantage then), but Arcovas are ideal for spying on the enemy when he hasn't got the firepower to gun them down yet.

As for military, the TEC have rather quick acces to LRM (they need 2 labs, which you can get right away if you want), just like the Vasari. Their LRMs are really cheap and give you the most bang for your buck. It's just too bad they have wet paper armour. They also have the longest range of all frigates (bar the anti-structure ones) in the game. Combined with Target Uplink of the Akkan, they can outrange Starbases, which comes in handy once in a while. The TEC also have easy acces to their repair cruiser (hoshis) and not only do they a great job at repairing, they're also quite cheap and sturdy. And when you research Demolition Bots, they become a big threat to the enemy. BTW, repairing is one of the TEC's main advantages. Their repair platforms (when upgraded, but you need that upgrade to get hoshis anyway) are the best of the 3, giving you a mighty 40 repair/sec at max research. Also, the TEC naturally have a focus on armour (they get the earliest acces to armour upgrades, too), making their repair skills even better. Damage not done, doesn't need to be repaired, after all.

So early in the game, the TEC can focus on getting an early economic advantage (just keep track of your enemy) and turtling up (their repair platforms and hoshis are excellent for this). Rushing can also be done by the TEC, but quite frankly the Vasari and Advent tend to fare better in this respect. At least the Marza can give a homeplanet a good headache with Raze Planet, so if you succeed, you'll get a good advantage over your enemy. Sova rushing is another option, but I'd go with the Marza, since that's the ship you'll want to get to lvl 6 asap.

 

Reply #3 Top

As much as that's mostly true, Strangey, it's not really applicable to the early game.

 

The biggest difference between races in the early game is how many labs you need to place to get access to basic units.  The most important ones are long range frigates and carriers.  Long range frigates (LRF) are your damage workhorses.  You get the most bang for your buck in terms of damage output from these guys in the early game, and aside from bombers and heavy cruisers they're also the best unit for attacking capital ships.  Carriers allow you to bring out fighters and gain air supremacy.  Fighters are the only hard counter to long range frigates available until heavy cruisers.

The long range frigates are one of the few types of units that appear at a different tech level for every race.  The Vasari get them with 1 lab, the TEC with 2, and the Advent must wait for 3 labs.  This makes acquiring them trivial for Vasari, and straightforward for TEC.  The catch is Advent, which has two issues.  First, three labs is starting to get a little too pricey for an early game unit, and secondly you cannot easily fit three labs into your homeworld.  While this is a significant set back to Advent, they have two advantages to compensate.  First, their long range frigate is without any question the strongest.  Secondly, Advent get their carriers with only two labs, while Vasari and TEC must wait for three. Rounding out your early game unit selection are flak frigates, which are easily accessible to everyone.  You typically need two flak frigates per enemy carrier (three against the more expensive Advent carrier) if you have no fighters of your own.

The light frigate, your basic combat unit that you have access to at the start of the game, isn't used that often.  Its fast speed means that carriers and other support cruisers cannot run away from it, but otherwise it has little merit.  Unless you need to chase carriers, there's not much reason to build light frigates at all.  If you see large numbers of carriers, light frigates are a great pick.  The key is to scout and know what you need to build.  Aside from the fact that the Advent have cheaper and weaker LF, and Vasari have more expensive but tougher LF, there aren't a lot of differences until you research their higher tech level upgrades.  They become useful support frigates at that point.

Aside from getting out the right units at the right times, picking your first capital ship is also a priority.  For Advent and Vasari, there is an obvious right answer.  The Evacuator (often called the "space whale", "space egg" or "death egg") for the Vasari has the ability to colonize planets without need of an expensive colony frigate, and its other abilities are some of the most powerful in the game.  Nano disassemblers works wonders against enemy capital ships, particularly in conjunction with those assailants.  The Advent have their mothership, which saves you copious sums of money with its colonization ability.  It also has one of the best defensive abilities in the game (shield regeneration).  You have to really know what you're doing to even consider anything but these two.

For TEC, you have some choice.  The Akkan makes a good defensive pick.  It can cheaply colonize planets and has good damage output (but it's a side shooter, so half that damage is always facing away from your primary target...), but the flipside is that most of its combat abilities aren't that useful in the early game.  The exact opposite is the dreaded Marza, a powerful forward shooter with brutal combat abilities at its disposal.  Somewhere in the middle is the Kol, a tough and well rounded battleship.  Sova is occasionally picked first, but it's more of a specialized strategy. 

Finally, the Hoshiko and Guardian are two support cruisers that often do come out in the early game.  Because they have substantial prerequisites they usually come out after carriers, but this is not always the case.  They both require three labs and several research prerequisites.  Their powers should never be underestimated, as they have brutal defensive properties that can keep your fleet alive for a long time, as well as potent upgrades later in the tech tree that make them extremely dangerous.  The Vasari support cruisers are decent, but not worth rushing.

Unless your playing a large map, it is usually foolish to pursue the civilian tech tree early on.  The simple fact is that it takes several minutes for those upgrades to pay for themselves (at best...), but a quick rush with high tech military units pays off very quickly if you don't have adequate defenses.  It should be noted that culture pays off faster than trade ports, even though trade ports in the long run will generate more cash.  The reason is that one culture broadcast center can cover itself and every adjacent planet (for a small empire this is all you need), whereas you need at least two trade ports to even get started with trade.  Culture is a huge boon not only to credit income, but also to extractor income, and this gives Advent a nice edge with only two labs.  While TEC's early access to trade ports gives them a nice advantage if they're booming and are protected by allies, this is more situational and often times a TEC player simply does not have the time or opportunity to actually take advantage of his early access to trade. 

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Reply #4 Top

Some tips to starting with each race:

 

Vasari: Early game Vasari have a sharp advantage over the other races in that you can quickly build LRF (only needing 1 military lab) and out econ other races in the earliest parts of the game as vasari scouts can capture neutral extractors. Neutral extractors are VERY important to vasari, as they need 3 labs for culture and 4 for trade, making it difficult to get a good economy running without the extractors. Neutral extractors can give you an extremely good econ boost so if you're vasari you want to nab them, and if you're playing against them you want to keep them for yourself. Also with vasari, I usually build a colony frigate right after building my scouts. Since the vasari can build SBs having only 2 labs, its really useful to have a colony frigate lying around for defending a planet in a hurry, or sneaking it into an enemy HW early in the game, or just to help you expand quickly.

 

Advent: Advent are the weakest early game so use every advantage you can get your hands on if an enemy is close. That means using the Progenitors cost reduction when colonizing, getting culture to squeeze every ounce of economy out of your planets (and slow any attack towards you). Be sure and scout your nearest enemy to determine if you need carriers or LRF and start building ASAP.

 

TEC: Get those trade ports up and running! And get out and get those planets quick! PLaying against TEC players I find an easier kill in those who don't get trade ports running as soon as they can and those who only build 1 colony frigate to tag along behind their Marza/Kol. Your cap ship can generally hold its own against local militia so split up you troops and grab as many planets as you can afford to. You'll need the logistics slots for trade. Early game TEC have the weakest ships (in terms of armor) with their LRF but they can make up for it with numbers, so long as you have the economy to do so. With that said I usually scuttle my cap ship factory after its first use so I can build another frigate factory and pump out ships. That way you can easily overwhelm your opponents with LRFs. THe only draw back is you HAVE to protect your capship cuz it'll end up costing you an arm AND a leg to build another. So just get some repair bays or hoshis, which by the way are notoriously difficult little ships to kill in the middle of a battle.

 

All Races:

Econ is super important, even early game so don't foget about it!

Do Not underestimate the power of flak frigates early game. If you see someone rushing for carriers start building flak immediately. Fighter are dead which is good for you, and your opponent is left with an expensive hunk of metal floating out in space, just waiting to be destroyed. With Flak frigates though you have to keep the pressure on, allowing enemy carriers to fall back to aother sytem and replenish their squadrons is not an option. Flak thrives on the fact that enemy strikecraft production cannot keep up with how fast your flaks can kill, so make sure you take care of the skies. Also flak frigates are tough little ships and are good at absorbing damage and taking the heat off your weakly armored LRFS. When facing a carrier spammer early game, I build flak on a 2to1 basis making sure Ive got 2 flaks for every carrier my opponent has, or at most, half of my fleet. Plus domination of the sky is vitaly important getting into mid-game, before players can roll out their carrier busting HCs

Your most valuable weapon is intelligence, attacking an enemy at the right moment can be the difference between winning and losing, so make sure you know when that moment is.

 

Reply #5 Top

The one comment I have to make, Deceiver, is that moving directly to trade ports is often foolish on smaller maps.  You need two trade ports to even get started, and including research this is about 2100 credits, 250 metal, and 400 crystal.  We're talking about the cost of a small fleet of units here just for a starter set of trade ports!  Unless you're protected by allies or have a nice choke point you can hold off at, this is not something you want to rush into.  Get your army out and consolidate your empire before you move on to trade ports.

Remember, a pair of trade ports may net you about 3 credits per second income.  Presuming metal and crystal are worth 3 credits a piece, it costed you about 4000 credits to put up those two trade ports.  At 3 credits per second, you're looking at 1333 seconds (about 22 minutes) to just pay back that cost.  In the meantime, you may be losing key battles because your army is smaller than the enemy's.

It's easy to be swayed by the huge returns trade ports eventually generate.  However, if you build them at the cost of your army, you may not survive long enough to reap the benefits.  A better plan is to establish a solid military first, and then build up your economic infrastructure once you have the capacity to defend it against incoming attacks.  Even if you build a relatively long trade port chain, you're still looking at 15 minutes before your economy pulls ahead significantly against a military aggressor.  First things first: make sure you can comfortably sit out those 15 minutes.

 

This doesn't apply on large or multi-star maps because it's often quite difficult and risky to attack an enemy at great distances.  As well, if you're protected by your allies then you can make long-term investments without making yourself vulnerable.  However, these are the exceptions, not the norm.  Make sure you can protect yourself first, then make long term investments.

Reply #6 Top

The one comment I have to make, Deceiver, is that moving directly to trade ports is often foolish on smaller maps.

Ah yes, well truth is your entire strategy has to change on a small map. And being able to defend yourself goes without saying.

In my own experience as Vasari, I find TEC the easiest to take down in the early to early-mid game unless that player has already established trade ports.

I'm afraid I don't completely agree with your logic on trade ports and time. I mean it makes sense in an "on paper" sort of way, but there are other factors that make it less drastic.

But then again, my statements were really aimed towards getting into the mid-game, by no means should anyone 'rush' to get trade ports up at the expense of a military (with the exception of larger maps as you pointed out). My point is that against an aggressive player as TEC you really have to use your economy to get the advantage. I personally start building trade ports after taking control of 2-3 planets (not including the asteroid).

Some other tips I've forgotten to mention:

Terran and Desert Planets near your HW are your best friends. If they are lightly defended (10-12 ships or less) try and nab them quick. Save enough resources to purchase 2 infrastructure upgrades right off the bat and you've got a nice boost to your econ, a lvl up to your cap(maybe even 2!) and plenty of logistics slots. Many times I'll send my cap ship there first to take out the heavy cruisers while my other ships take the asteroid with a colonizer. Then jump in your fleet once the HCs are dead. You gotta be careful doing this though, don't let your cap take too much damage (unless you've already researched repair structure). Eventually you'll get pretty good at determining how many militia your cap, which ever you choose, can handle by itself.

Build frigate factories as close to the front line as you can, and make sure that front line isn't too close to your HW. Lots of players will sneak in and grab a planet within 2 jumps of your HW and build factories there, thats BAD news for you. Having to send newly built ships a few jumps to get to a battle where they might be the difference between winning it and losing it is no good. Get them in there as fast as you can. If that means building a factory right next door, so be it.

Losing your cap ship isn't the end of the game, but it puts you at a big disadvantage. If you find a player constantly targeting your cap, don't stray too far from the edge of a gravwell so you can jump away at a moments notice.

 

Reply #7 Top

the only thing is guys, he doesn't play online. these seem like online strategies. no matter how big the map is i always throw ports and refineries down, even versus unfair. the AI doesnt seem to be able to outpace you much, unless you are playing like 3 v1 or something, then maybe you have to watch your econ to the "T". I am assuming vanilla sins, and thus I have always ended up with a lot of econ at the end of the game and never thought I should have not wasted time, econ or slots on building anything.

now online is a different story. I play sins slow, and get my ass handed to me online because I play like I was playign the AI. which in that case you would not build a crap ton of econ boosters early since everyone will spam lrm at you anyway.
I've also never seen anyone build more than thier free cap online, either.

 

also, versus AI, early game, I send my cap of choice to claim planets and level it easily. The more caps you have in 1 grav well, the more they soak the exp, making it take longer for 1. at least this way my first cap can be leveled somewhat before I start my push. this is for vanilla sins, again.

Reply #8 Top

Against the AI you can do almost anything and get away with it; it's not too smart <_<

I think good advice should encapsulate both singleplayer and multiplayer.  You have to generalize your statements somewhat to make them applicable to all playstyles and skill levels.  I never said build your trade ports at the X minute mark, what I said was "ensure you're able to defend yourself first".  Clearly that bar is much lower if you're playing an AI, and it's up to the individual player's experience how to interpret that.

For a final word on trade ports, I just want to say that they're both powerful and overrated.  They're one of the only sources of income that are unaffected by loyalty, and so long as you have logistical space you can build more and their effects stack linearly.  However, they're overrated in the sense that there are better returns on your money.  A single neutral extractor gives you better returns than a trade port.  Those three extractors around your desert planet?  Their income is worth about two trade ports.  Until your empire gets large enough for loyalty to be an issue, population upgrades offer better returns than trade ports.

 

now online is a different story. I play sins slow, and get my ass handed to me online because I play like I was playign the AI. which in that case you would not build a crap ton of econ boosters early since everyone will spam lrm at you anyway.

Ignoring econ altogether is just as bad as rushing into it.  Although it's easy to get rushed and overwhelmed, that doesn't mean that econ is suicide.  To reiterate my initial point: make sure you can defend yourself before you invest in your economy.  Just because the bar is higher against a player (as opposed to an AI) doesn't mean the advice is any less applicable.  As I'm sure you're aware, learning to pace yourself and balance army and economy against a smart and experienced enemy player isn't trivial, and that's where the difficulty is.  It's not that the balance doesn't exist, it's just hard to find and there's little margin of error.

I've also never seen anyone build more than thier free cap online, either.

The primary issue here is that players won't send their units in suicide attacks, which the AI does frequently.  As a result, there's typically less experience floating around in a multiplayer game, so having fewer capital ships is a natural way to ensure they still reach higher levels.  However, keeping only to one capital ship is somewhat unusual (unless the game ended on a quick rush).  Even the infamous Vasari assailant rush usually brings out a desolator rather quickly to siege planets, and Advent almost always bring out a Halcyon and Radiance if given half a chance.  However, more than three caps is where it gets uncommon, but that's more to do with the exorbitant upgrade costs for the next tier.

Reply #9 Top

Yeah I agree with you but the OP said:

Oh, and I play against AI only, not humans!

 

thus my comments