Unclean Beast suggestions (nerfs)

    Sandman, the Unclean Beast's power to hit towers with his Vemon is really one of the best ways he can work. It's like me asking for the Rook to have his building sucking ability taken away. There is no over powered nature to this beast, in fact he's very inneffective against a very good team of Demigods who know their classes. I was in that game Sandman, and I know very well you were not using Rook to the degree in which could have really make the game a lot more complicated for me. What really hinders the Unclean Beast is Mines and Towers. You had a Regulus on your team, you could have both made a nasty gauntlet and always hid within it.

So it's been out a day and you think you're an expert?..

He doesn't need to be nerfed, at least not yet.

Considering the fact that the rook cant use the building drain on demigods, I would say that arguement is pretty weak. I was dropping towers every chance i got, it has a CD and the rook has very little mana. My team mate was garbage. I dont that that the unclean beast is so overpowered but 2 of them in the same game against a slow moving rook and a garbage Regulus. Personally I like the custom matches because there is no restriction on demigods based on faction and most of the time players are willing to pick a variety of demigods so there are not too many of the same on one team. I think i just wish that the pantheon prevented more than one of the same demigod on the same team but that is expecting alot.

Never said i was an expert, i have just been having a reasonable amount of trouble against unclean beasts while playing a variety of different demigods.

The Beasts 'STUN' ability is a channeling ability, if they do anything withing the 4second drain, it will cancel.

No nerfing the Demigods for at least 3 months please... I'm still trying to find a build that I like for the beast and really don't want it negated by people who hate losing getting their way.

Besides I could make similar complaints against teams of Regulus/Rook   one hammer followed by that straight shot move and my poor beast is caputzski

Ur right, what makes the UB awsome is that it DoTs the player then can stun them and after the stun is over they are snared.  Like I said its not too OP but I think in Pantheon its pretty awsome not having to worry about TBs and other demigods that might be a direct threat to it.

The DoT was already nerfed and wasn't bad in the first place except early game.

And hwat are you talking about?  UB has 3 demigods that do well against it in pantheon.

Regulas has mines and snares which hurts UB a lot.

Sedna has debuff removal (removes his dot)

Oak has debuff removal AND immunity(so it won't get effected by the speed and attack nerf)

This is what I meant with my expert comment. :/  This game is VERY VERY VERY well balanced for being so new.  It's more balanced than games that've been patched for months.

While some skills themselves are too weak still, or could use better progress, demigod by demigod it's veryb balance.

alot of DG's can easily destroy towers without taking much damage. 

Torchbearer's fireball outranges towers.

Queen of Thorn's Uproot outranges towers. she also has minions and a shield that can easily absorb hits while she wails on the tower.

Rook can literally eat towers. his trebuchet also easily destroys buildings at no risk to Rook. 

Regulus can snipe towers from beyond their range.

and yeah, Beast can Spit on them and run away. 

whats the big deal? there are alot of ways to hit towers. you can also just wait for a wave of creeps and then run in after its targetted the little guys. Rook is good at doing this as he can keep up his own creeps for some extra time with buffs. Erebus and Sedna are good at this tactic as well. 

the Beast is not at all a jack of all trades. its actually an extremely narrowly focused Melee DPS class. it really has very limited utility of any kind in terms of assisting the team. Beast just does alot of damage, thats basically it. he's got some debuffs and DoTs but everything is focused on ganking DG's and maintaing very high DPS with melee attacks. 

the fact that you found one damage ability that can also be used against towers, in a manner that is roughly analagous to many other damage abilities in the game, doesn't even come close to being a convincing argument for overpowered. 

Missed the point

no you didn't. you have no valid criticism of what i've said.

here it is again, in short form.

Unclean Beast shouldn't be nerfed at all right now. he is not, as you seem to describe, a "jack of all trades". he is a very focused damage dealer. one of his abilities can damage towers effectively but this is no different than what many other demigods are already capable of and therefore not a balance issue. 

UB isn't over powered.  If anyone is overpowered it's oak, sedna, and erebus oddly enough, since I easily beat UB with them, and the two former ones destroy buildings well.  But it's hard to tell as I haven't played against good ones since retail, just ai and noobs.

I thought spit could target buildings....isn't this what this post is all about.  Regardless, I still don't think it's OP.

I THINK REGULUS NEEDS A NERF CAUSE HE CAN BE AT HIS BASE AND SNIPE ME FOR BIG DAMAGE AND I CANT TOUCH HIM! HE CAN ALSO OUT RANGE OUR TOWERS WHICH IS MAJORLY OP!!! NERF NERF NERF!!!

I haven't played enough GOOD games to get an overall feel, but I think more time and testing is needed for each.

I find I have trouble with a rook backed up by a competent regulus.... that hammer and that diresct snipe reguluis does.... ouch...

As for towers.... Armor up and there isnt a tower in the game that can hurt you once you're level ten... at that point Run PAST the towers, Run PAST the mobs and cap the spawn portal flags then toss capture locks on them... bada bing bada boom you get about a minute of unobstructed hard pushing.  (45second lock + the 15 seconds capping the flag +/- opposing dg response time)

Oh spit actually can attack towers.  This needs to be "fixed".  You should get "invalid target" trying to use it on buildings just like bite.

By doing that you effectively eliminate the usefulness of UB.. Acid is acid and its from a DG not a normal monster so theres no real reason why it's corrosive spit doesnt effect stone as well as it does other DGs

One thing I've felt somewhat waffly about is whether or not spit should stack, IE a tag-team of UBs spit you and both dots start running you down.

The counter I'd expect is "well you could say that about 2 TB fireballs or 2 Regulus snipes" but both these abilities have really long cast times.  You can concievably stun at least one of them before they got them off, also I know fireball does less overall damage than spit does.

Currently spits do stack, and the feeling I get is that they shouldn't, and we should also look into other buffs and debuffs to see what becomes unfair when they stack.  As the game gets more stable, and 5v5 matches become more common, this cound become a serious issue.  Nothing should be done tomorrow of course, but I think an eye needs to be kept on this.

Spit also lasts much longer than it's recharge.  I actually thought it DIDN'T stack..  Are you sure it does?

I was playing a game where we were both UB and it didn't look like it to me.

Uhm.. because then spit is better than uproot, seeing as how it can target players?  Uproot has 15 second recharge, 10 second duration.  Spit is 7 second recharge, LESS than it's duration.  So effectively, it's just as good as uproot against buildings yet can hit people too.

UB doesn't even need to be good at attacking buildings. Erebus sure isn't.  But even without spit, he's still good at attacking them with his bestial rage.

Okay how about this.

Lvl 4 bite is 164 DPS.  Lvl4 uproot is 133dps.  This is damage vs. recharge.  Spit you can put on two buildings and you'll get effective 164dps.  Uproot has 5 seconds between uses, on the other hand.  Yes compost will increase uproot damage, but that's at 7 skillpoints not 4.

So.. that's all I have to say.  Spit should not target buildings.  Nor should snipe.

spit doesn't stack, not in the sense that one Beast can spit on you twice and have double DoT damage from just his own spit. 

two different Beasts can both spit on you though. i don't see why this is unexpected at all though, it would be an abnormal handicap if Beast had an ability that for some reason interfered with the abilities of his team mates. 

Yes but there is more than 1 building to spit on in the game.  Usually close together.  That's how you play to win. :/

And I just think no two debuffs or buffs of the same type should stack.  The higher level one should take priority, or be replaced with the new one if they're the same.

I don't know of any game where you can have two of the same buff on you.  It helps balance them.

i think wat sandman is trying to get at is that UB has too many abilities that make him good against everything (i'm not saying other things can't still beat the living tar out of him or that he is OP)  so for example, like he said:  rook has an awesome healing ability where he can immobilize and drain health from towers as well as QoT's ability to Uproot towers, however they can only be used on buildings.  if it could be used on Demigods as well everyone would scream OP.  with UB on the other hand his tower assaulting ability can attack both Demigod and Tower so i'm pretty sure thats the argument.

what might make more sense is rather than it equal damage to Demigod and building simply making it a buff again towers and poison damge against Demigods... that way the UB still needs to stick around an physicaly attack the tower but doing like X2 or X3 more damage?

however before all of what i've said... Nerfing the charcters 6 days after release seems time consuming and pointless.

I agree with ScottishAlien no nerfs should be handed out until the games at the least a couple months old.  I hope the tone here is more of an open debate rather than QQ'ing.

I would like to see the UCB's effectiveness against Demigods/structures/creeps tested as I fear it might be found that he can pretty much do it all without altering builds very much.  Perhaps it will be found that his spit IS too strong against structures and thus towers shouldn't be targetable with it.

I really like the fact that each unit can to an extent take a role as they please, but I particularly enjoy how demigods excell at specific roles -- QoT is great at creeping and pushing lanes but has no strong way to finish off demigods.  Regulus can dispatch enemy demigods and can hold lanes rather well, but has a hard time pushing up a lane without any comprehensive anti-structure past "I KAN SHOT AT U OUTSID UR RANG".

I want this to be the case for all demigods.

innociv, 

there are many many many examples of DoT abilities from different players stacking on a single target. i'm sure i could make a veritable laundry list of examples but i'll stick with just one important example. the default behavior for DoTs in World of Warcraft PvP is that each player gets to apply their own DoTs, up to a certain number of total debuffs that can ever be active on an entity at a single time. 3 Warlocks can each have their own Corruption (a powerful DoT spell) running on the same target. 

now i'm not trying to say that just because one game did it that way it means its the right design for every game. just trying to show that the precedent is there. 

at the moment however i do think its the right design for Demigod for 2 different Beasts to both be able to use their venoms on the same thing. its just a damage spell, its not fundamentally any different than Fireball or Snipe or Hammer Slam. 

i'm not opposed to adjustments in principle if any particular ability can be PROVEN to be overpowered. it may yet turn out to be the case that Venom Spit should cost more mana or do less damage or have some other adjustment made. i really think its too early to determine this though.

Yeah right now that part of it doesnt' seem a big deal.  But it damaging buildings is, IMO, as it's 30 more dps than the building only skill uproot is on a Demigod that's quite good at killing people, and also killing buildings without it.

eh, depends on the build. a late game QoT can max out Uproot and Compost and end up with a spell that does 300 damage a tick to buildings for 10 seconds. thats twice as much damage as Venom Spit and it has a casting range thats more than twice as long, it can outrange towers.