Thanks Sinperium. Excellent answer. H-o-w-e-v-e-r, evidently not to BT! 

 

 

The Catholic Church Founder was Jesus. He established His Church upon the Apostles. So when did the Apostles know that Jesus  was God?

Who was Christ? Christ was the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, existing in the human nature which was born of the Virgin Mary, yet retaining ever His Divine nature. He is therefore GOd and man at one and the same time. As man He could die for His fellow human beings; as God He was able to expiate the insult offered to the DIvine Majesty and thus restore to men the possibility of eternal happiness.  

Christ means the Messias promised by God to appear on earth who did appear in human form through the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As man, Christ existed on earth for 33 years. But as a Divine being in His nature as God, He existed all of eternity.  

So, God first knew it and from all eternity. He promulagated the doctrine from the very beginning of the human race when He promised Adam and Eve a Redeemer would come and continuously through the prophets of the Old Testament of which the Apostles, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, were all well familiar with.

The Blessed Virgin Mary knew it for God had revealed that the Holy Ghost would overshadow her and "The HOLY" which shall be born shall be the Son of God. 

Christ taught it clearly and claimed He was God and confirmed that by miracles. Christ answered your question put to Him by the Jews who doubted He was God. Jesus said to them that before Abraham came to be I AM. They understood and took up stones to cast at Him. 

Simon Peter knew Christ to be the Son of God in the unique unprecedented Divine sense of equality with God the Father, having all the power there is in Heaven and on earth. So, they all knew it but for some it was much more clear after the Crucifixion and so much more so after Christ's Resurrection.

Who would you say that Jesus is? That Jesus Christ is God was first told by Christ Himself to His Apostles and they and their successors in the Catholic Church has been teaching this truth ever since 33AD and will continue until the end of the world. 

 

No word games from me. We agree you are right that an unborn baby dies every time there is a miscarriage or an abortion. But we honestly can't blend the two as though they are interchangeable.

I simply made a reasoned observance between miscarriage and abortion. It all comes down to the moral value of the act...and in that regard a miscarriage is not equivalent to procured abortion. 

A miscarriage happens naturally usually because a problem in the process of development exists, while an abortion is anything but natural.

 

 

 

I just discuss and answer questions the best I can.

You have not pronounced anything new.

We all know the Atheist's viewpoint that nothing is sacred, not God, not human life and their hatred of the Church and His holy religion.

I too shall not belabor this particular part of the JU discussion any longer except to extend to all this quote:

"Catholic doctrine tells us that the primary duty of charity does not lie in the toleration of false ideas, however sincere they may be, nor in the theoretical or practical indifference towards the errors and vices in which we see our brethren plunged... Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their false ideas, however sincere they might have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them." Pope St.Pius X, "Our Apostolic Mandate", August 25, 1910.

 

The slavery of Atheism or true freedom in Christ? The choice is ours.

Lula, I haven't pronounced anything ... I just asked a bunch of questions which you handily dismissed ... as usual. This seems to answer all the questions I had though. I think Stalin, Hitler and many other historical notables seem to have had the same philosophy ... our way or death. This sounds apt for ‘the freedom fighters in the RCC’ to me is all, hahaha. Freedom of choice my aching arse.

Ha, go back and read... you pronounced plenty...just as you are doing here again.

Sorry though it is common knowledge that both Stalin and Hitler had great contempt for the Church and her moral teachings. If they had the same philosophy as Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, then the atheist's slaughter of human life from 1917 to 2007 that numbered roughly 148 million people would never have happened.

 The callousness of atheist states towards human life is summed up in Vox Day's book, The Irrational Atheist in a chapter entitled "The Red Hand of Atheism". 

 

You will not convince her that anything outside the RCC is good, least of all the opinion of an atheist (I know hahaha). This is not a free country by far ... maybe “free'er” than many but... I speak of Christianity but my arguments are in opposition to all religions ... there are just so many??? The Koran is much more in line with the real world (evolution) because when they were compiling their silly Book, they didn't see the need to rewrite our complete past. Don’t get angry … take the fight home but on your terms.

Look familiar, hahaha ... I knew this wouldn't last long but the very next quote ... got to love this nonsense. You cannot possibly be this naïve that you have to ask this over and over again. AFAIK, our realms of thinking are the same (Anatomy 1.01) but our information sources differ, our modus operandi differs and our objectives differ. Your goal is the subjugation of everything and everyone on the planet (and beyond, hehehe) because your God told you to … my goal is to make sure your goal never ever gets applied to me. God was never ever fully appreciated from His angelic creations to His Earthly creations up to me … so what’s new Doc? The perfect ‘Creator’ for sure … ever seen a duck billed platypus???

If you insist on talking about morals HERE (???) then let’s start with the OT, then the NT and then through Catholic dogma and compare your self-righteous absolute morality to say those of a little old atheist ... mine.

 

Jafo, let me know when enough is enough ok.

 

Mortalkhrist,

Regarding our last few posts....

We are definitely getting strictly into religion, something the other participants may not be interested in.

So on Baptism, etc. I just opened a new blog and responded there.

 

 

https://forums.joeuser.com/414999/page/1/#3052072

 

On the other hand--despite all the red herrings, distortions and human interference--what if there is a core of truth in there.  Wouldn't you want to know?

Why do these debates always turn into "Atheists vs Christians"?

It's like the agnostics and the rest of the religions are the smart ones, and just make some popcorn and watch. 

Because it is the 'nature of the beast' that threads on topics such as this will inevitably be hijacked by personal agendum or extremist/fanatical opinion and disintegrate into verbal mayhem only to be abruptly closed down.

 

Just saw this as I posted my last comment.

Jafo,

I can understand not condemning another person personally, but really, I'm not allowed to condemn another's belief system be it religion or atheism? 

Check other's posts...Isn't that exactly what others have been doing, condemning the Catholic Church and Catholicism all along?

Of course it is.

Fret not. This is no longer a site I'd like to contribute my 2 cents worth. This will be my last post.

 

Maybe it is because you have no idea what you are condemning? Atheism means one thing and one thing only. The belief that no God exists. It has nothing to do with some imaginary set of beliefs that you wish to paint a stereotype on others with. The range of beliefs that individual atheists have probably vary as much or more than those of all the religions which ever existed on this planet.

 

Well I've held off as long as I can, but I finally must succumb to the alluring topic we have here in this thread...I'll start with the "34 page disclaimer" that what is to be said here may have been said before...and I don't feel like reading 34 pages to find out...

I first would say that in my opinion, religion is not really a choice per se as much as it is the product of life experience...you don't choose to believe in God as much as you are simply convinced one way or the other by your own personal life experiences...

I mean, think about...really think about it...you can't sit yourself down and say "Well, today's gonna be the day I choose between atheism and theism"...you either believe or you don't...your beliefs may change over time, and some can even point to a specific moment (or series of moments) that led them to their belief system today...but it was those moments, those life experiences, that caused you to "buy into" a certain worldview...

That is not to say choice is irrelevant...you can choose, to a degree, what life experiences you are exposed to...additionally, you can make choices or take actions that happen to lead you down a certain path...but in the end, religious beliefs are products of life experience, not the results of a definite decision...an "epiphany" or "moment of clarity" simply is not a choice as much as it is an event you experience...

I am sure many will disagree with this premise, but there's my thought on the matter...now, with that in mind...

I understand your point is more on why other religions are seemingly disregarded, but that really is more just the demographic of people on these forums (and I'd guess most discussions you/we are exposed to) than anything else...the real debate is between atheists and theists, and it equally concerns all religions (most of which just aren't proportionately represented by the community here/there/anywhere)...

Because religious beliefs (and one's willingness to accept or reject them) are the product of a life's worth of experiences, individuals are not easily swayed....of course this is obvious, we all went into this discussion fully aware that very few people here are going to change or be dissuaded from their beliefs...

But it is more than just "strong beliefs"...both sides are built on fallacious arguments with flawed thinking...it is an irreconcilable debate that can perpetuate itself with circular logic, semantics, and good old stubbornness...before you read too much into that and assume a tirade of flaming will follow, this statement is not meant to be offensive or critical in anyway....

In the end, such flawed thinking is unavoidable because we are human...the human mind inherently uses heuristics, confirmation bias, and defense mechanisms that heavily influence our beliefs...ultimately, neither atheists or theists have a single damn good reason to believe what they believe...really, neither side has a leg to stand on...advocates of each side ultimately have been "convinced" their side is right...there was no proof, merely evidence and a series of experiences vetted through the flawed human mind...and the product is an unshakable human belief system...

That doesn't mean we are wrong to have beliefs, or wrong to try and justify them (whether to ourselves or to others)...furthermore, just because the so-called "reasoning" behind a belief system is fundamentally flawed doesn't mean the belief system cannot possibly be right...there is no true solid, incontrovertible proof for atheists or theists, and eventually both sides will have nothing but "faith" going for them...your ignorant and unfounded beliefs are just as silly as mine are... 

Barring the possibility of posthumous consequences, that someone is a theist or atheist is honestly irrelevant...a person's beliefs only need to serve that one person and their psychological needs, and both view points are quite adequate in satiating our intrinsic desires (in fact, agnosticism or apathy can fulfill those needs just as well)...clearly, what belief systems works best at "convincing" the human mind depends on which human mind we're looking at.... 

For the record, and because I think it's only fair people understand where I stand before progressing to properly criticize me, I strongly believe in God...and, I'll be the first to admit I don't have a single good reason to, I just do...I could point to reasons why I have been led to this belief, but ultimately there are no solid reasons why my belief is right or preferential to any other belief...

That being said, I think there is a big difference between the universally flawed thinking humanity depends on to live happily with itself and some of the thinking that is expressed here in this thread...in these types of discussions, I generally find both sides to be equally ignorant, illogical, intolerant, and shameful...I'm not saying all people who participated here are "problematic" or "antagonistic"...I simply am equally repulsed by hardliners from both sides...what bothers me the most about this type of debate in particular is that both sides commonly denounce the other side for being "intolerant", "ignorant", or "illogical"...in truth, I find both sides to be equally bad, going far and above the inherent bias and poor logic all human minds are plagued with...truly, these debates go to a whole new level of.....of, well, silliness...