How are dungeons going to work?

I'm interested in this as well but it seems like this thread belongs in the general elemental section instead of the ideas section. 

I think it will be a mix of both kinds you mentioned. Say a relatively small dungeon consisting of a tower complex (lets call it the "tower of the dark countess") woud only take up a single tile space. Where as a dungeon that feels like the Mines of Moria could take up several tiles. In layman's terms, the more epic the dungeon the more space it will take up.

I would agree and this does sound reasonable...  on the same note since larger maps have more room the dungeons have the possibility of being more epic.

I'm hoping we'll see different types of chests as well.  I'm hoping the chests are more related to the chests from the RPG  Might & Magic III & IV...  where the contents were more equal to the type of chest.   I think the smallest was a wooden crate but the highest was a gold chest and of course the very rare legendary "black box".   Upon finding these highest rated chests it would feel as though time would stop and you'd be in awe for just being next to the chest because the contents were significantly more important. 

Some of the worst examples of chests from todays game is where the super best chests drop nothing of value and the typical barrels can provide a super elite item.   Ultimately this results in having no joy based on the type of chest you discover.

We're still working on dungeons  :)  We have a very simple implementation ATM where units can enter a dungeon and automaticially use their moves to explore it, finding treasure and encountering foes along the way. The final solution has the following requirements....

1. Linkable to Quests: In traditional D&D, dungeons will hold quest specific items that have to be gathered and returned to advance the adventure 'There's a dungeon to the north that holds a Golden Goblet. Bring that goblet to me and I'll tell you where to find your lost brother.' Our dungeons need to allow this.

2. Simple Assets: Most of our asset making time will be spent on units, buildings, and art for the game worlds. The solution for dungeons cannot be a full 3d 'Diablo-esque' maze for your away party to explore. Our artists little hands would fall off...and they like their hands.

3. FUN!!: With in a dungeon, player's have to be presented with interesting choices during the turn. Our current solution (similar to sending out adventurers in My Life as a King) lacks the interactivity that makes true dungeon exploration fun. This needs to be fixed.

So yeah, that's where were at. Certain units won't be able to enter dungeons (Calvary, War Engines), and higher level dungeons will be placed further from the player starting locations, but other than those our final implementation is yet to be discovered.

3) There is no need for the high-level  dungeon to be too far from teh player. The more attempts the player makes, the more food the dragon will have...

Perhaps they like their jobs more....

Do you know how exploring dungeons are done in Age of Wonders, Age of Wonders 2 and Master of Magic ?

Of the Age of Wonders series it's IMO best done in the original Age of Wonders since you really have to explore the dungeon and find out what enemies there are. Running out of time to type (are in school) but you should see how it's done in that game. It can definetly be improved though, like there could be different lvls, not needing to kill all enemies etc.

I agree the original Age of Wonders  did fantastic work for exploring caves, dungeons, etc., .   I truly missed this feature when the sequels were released as did many other gamers.  The  altars from the original Age of Wonders  were also greatly missed.  It would be great if the exploring could match what was provided within the original Age of Wonders, but perhaps to include Stairways for the levels, Traps, Monsters(good, neutral and evil), Teleporters, variation of stuff to find(Herbs, Scrolls, Magic_Fountains, Chests, Coffins, Gems, etc.,).

I remember the original  Diablo game only took  10MB  of  diskspace  to install...  it was amazing how much replay value this game provided.

That´s a shame. Is there any chance, that we see something like this someday in an expansion pack?!

Thank you for the response BB! But I guess what I am after is probably even more simple of an answer than what you provided.

Do you expect that once a dungeon is discovered, it will usually be explored in one turn (like MoM) where you entered the dungeon, fought the monster and got the reward, or do you see dungeons being bigger and the player actually taking multiple turns to "crawl" the dungeon and find what surprises, pleasant or otherwise, it contains?

I'll be happy with either answer, and if the answer is "we don't know yet." that's cool too.

Thanks!

Ah  :)  

In our Elemental, Artifacts act more like MoM dungeons, being 1 time 'goodie bags' that may be guarded by a creature.

Dungeons will require more adventuring (and turns) to 'clear', with multiple treasures and encounters and possible boss battles and quest items.

I've also pitched a Dungeon idea to Brad which I think he approves of. I'll keep you posted on wether or not it becomes an official feature (it fufills all three of the above objectives, so we should be good)!

Thanks! It seems like the floodgates of info are starting to open, it is really appreciated!

It looks like the answer is "all of the above", which in this case is the best possible answer!

WooHoo!

I was hoping to hear this.    I hope these dungeons are scalable in same way.  (like some  games I know I will want HUGE dungeons that take a good while to explore, but others I may want the average dungeon to be very small and straight forward.   Maybe just a generic MoM style *has monster, will defend treasure*

Some other thoughts....

Ideally the larger dungeons should be more likely to eventually refill with new creatures, thieves, monsters, etc., .   Some of the larger dungeons should also have multiple exits(example-Moria)... a few one_way exits could also be available.  I'm also looking forward to finding huge dungeons which may take up 10+ map squares, thus providing that feeling of AWE.

It would be interesting to see independent adventurers which also travel the map.  This type of independent could not only visit dungeon structures, but also visit towns which can boost morale and gold income.  These adventurers would not clean out a dungeon, but they might get killed leaving their items&treasures inside or perhaps release a monster.  These independents could not be attacked without damage to reputation and possibly other variables such as trade.

There's a rough analog to this in the re-spawning anomalies in GC2, and the idea definitely makes sense from a 'dungeon ecology' POV. (One of my favorite tabletop RPG refs was obssessed with designing dungeons where monsters *lived* instead of the more typical What's Behind Door Number One design style.)

I'm with GW swicord on this one.  Why would dungeons refil with monsters?   I mean maybe giant cockrooches and stuff, but things like dragons and what have you?  I can't imagine why they would come back.

If anything I'd want to clear out a dungeon and move in villagers and turn it into a new building.    I mean no sense in letting a perfectly good structure go to waste.   A bit of spit-shine will get that carrion crawler juice off the walls, and a rug can cover the lurker nest.

I think refilling new creatures is OK. Low level creatures would be generated first, higher level creatures later. The higher the dungeon population is, the higher level creatures may appear.  It may be nice if eg. an orc infested dungeon generates orc raiders (as a neutral units) roaming on the map (when dungeon population reaches critical level) .

One more idea: It may be nice if specific low level creature allows specific higher level addons - e.g. orcs allow worges and orges, orges orge mages.... Or skeletons allow zombies and ghouls, ghouls and zombies allow wrights and ghasts, they allow something even more lethal up to the lich or some very tough necromancer.

I think my parenthetical aside must be confusing. I was agreeing with NTJedi that larger dungeons should have something like a local ecology that would eventually make them dangerous and/or interesting to explore again.

On the other hand, I see no good reason not to have the possibility of refurbishing and occupying a dungeon structure if you've killed or chased away all the former occupants. Depending on the dungeon type, it might be hard to attract a civilian population, but you should at least be able to put some resources into converting them into a local fort.

I am not sure about the dungeon livability thing. From a realism (well, as realistic as fantasy can get, anyway) point of view, it makes perfecdt sense, but I have no idea how having ready-to-use (or nearly so) settlements spread out across the map would affect strategy. Also, I believe it is "wight" not "wright".

Dungeons are top-notch real estate for monsters and things of evil which is why they should eventually be refilled.  The darkness and deep caverns are known for breeding insects, bats and other ugly things... within a fantasy world it's only logical these things would be much larger in size and would allow larger monsters to easily feed and reproduce.  The very darkness provides monsters not only protection, but an edge for surprise attacks.   Even the undead are more likely to seek places of darkness for their homes.   As a demi_lich to start casting rituals on the surface is much more likely to be noticed as compared to a deep dungeon.   Also if a level_12 demi_lich discovered a level_17 demi_lich was slaughtered by some adventurers which returned home, then naturally the level_12 demi_lich would be interested in seeing what might have been left behind of interest... such as corpses, evil_altar, writings on the walls, etc., .  Depending on the dungeons location and what was left behind the level_12 demi_lich may permanently move, yet hopefully more wise for planning defenses and escape thus not to repeat the history of the level_17 demi_lich.

I can't imagine any villagers being interested in living inside a dungeon since there's no sunlight, unclean and limited visibility/food unless the surface was being overpowered by some force of nature or dominated by a specific race.  The only exception would be dwarves and this would ONLY be for mines for the digging of jewels. 

I dont know if I mentoned this in another thread, but one idea I had (again, ideas are the easy part) would be to allow certain dungeons (catagorized into caverns, ruins, and towers), once cleared, and a spell of control is cast upon them, to be 'tapped' for recruitable creatures.

Almost like our current setup...you need an Archery to train Bowmen, Stable to train Calvary...here, each controlled dungeon would unlock various creatures that could be trained as 'units' in your various armies.

Again, just an idea, but a fun way to make dungeons more useful (especially if only certain races have hte proper spell).

I like the way the ideas in this thread are going.  It would also be neat (you are right, ideas are easy!) if now and then a cavern found on one side of a long mountain range would allow (once whatever lurked inside was defeated) access to the other side of the mountain.  Discovering something like this may be its own reward. 

Perhaps you could use them as special collectable items in the collecter's addition! Just put them in little sandwich bags and insert them into the boxes!

Using dungeons to train units is an interesting idea. Imagine a scenario where an enemy takes the nearby town, but you still control the dungeon without them knowing it. They then move their army on to try and take your next town, when all of a sudden a horde of crazed monsters emerge from the cave right next to the town they just left!

If you mentioned it elsewhere, I missed it! I was just typing elsewhere about y'all seeming not to want any steady supply of fantastic creature units. I'm sure that a bunch of folks already typing around here wish you the best of luck in getting an idea like this workable and into the game. It'd be especially swell if that sort of 'production dungeon' could output user-designed creatures.

This idea sounds good for the smaller dungeon types, but should not be possible for all dungeon types.  The more larger and epic dungeon types should always remain as an uncontrollable source for generating chaotic evil.  While they can be cleared and become peaceful for several turns... eventually evil will return within the larger and epic dungeons.   It definitely would be fun for being able to recruit creatures from the smaller dungeon types.

These larger and epic dungeon types should even eventually spit out creatures if they are not cleared.   Some of the very rare events could even have a powerful evil army emerge from the dungeon which is being lead by one or more independent champions(Evil_Mage; Devil; Lich; Cyclops; etc.,) .  The game turn is one variable which can be used as a balance tool for deciding how powerful of an army emerges.