A very, very funny fact about Vasari capital ships in general.

its kinda curious. the only explanation i can come up with is that Vasari weapons firing arcs tend to be alot bigger than most others races so a greater portion of that total DPS is applied at any given time. this is probably most noticeable on the Kortul which seems like its nearly impossible to get it into a situation where it isn't blasting away with everything all the time. All the ships have generous arcs though, its not just the Battleship. 

TEC ships are notorious for only shooting half their guns at a time, the only one that actually shoots [almost] everything all the time is the Kol. Akkan and Dunov and Sova are side-shooters and generally only fire half their guns at a time. Marza has great frontal fire power but extremely poor flank facing guns (2 autocannons on the right, 3 lasers on the left, thats it). 

Advent ships also have firing arc issues. the Rapture actually has plasma cannons pointed directly backwards, if you can believe that. the Mothership and Halcyon are both side shooters and only fire full weapons when totally surrounded. i'll pay 5 bucks to anyone who can tell me what direction a Revelation's guns point without looking it up. come on, its been at least 6 months since you built a Revelation in a competitive game, right?

anyway, i'm not sure thats a full explanation. i'm sure it accounts for some of it but there may be a real issue here. even if the firing arcs thing is the explanation it still puts Vasari ships at a disadvantage when surrounded, compared to their counterparts. 

It IS the exile fleet.

exiles=running=trying to survive=no time for reasearch

How much does an empire, once in firm control and is beating everyone, improve on its military technology?The roman empire found what worked and stuck with it, as did alex the great and atillia. Yes, i kno that they didnt exactly have a reasearch division to go into, but the technology stayed the same, tactics may have changed though.

there are also sf books that alude to this fact. Saga of the seven suns, the Illdrian empire stopped reasearching because it believed itself to be the best, was beating everyone ect. Gunpowder empire, tech change is being stimulated from parallel universe, not from inside.

and yes, i kno this is a lorish explination

imo it's never been about DPS, it's been about abilities. plus, those things are pretty hard to down

I think it might have to do with the phase missles. phase missles can bypass shields, so their ships are damaging the hulls of ships more quickly than other races, so they can get away with lesser DPS. Also, don't the vasari ships have superior combined shields and hull? this could be the trade-off for that extra protection.

I'd gladly give up 10 DPS for phase missles.  There was some post a while back explaining how effectve phase missles really were due to the fact that since they bypassed shields, they also bypassed mitigation.  I think it worked out to a roughly to be about over 20% increase in DPS. 

These explanations make some sense, but the Vasari Kortul, Antorak and Desolator still have less DPS then the Akkan!

Wider firing arcs, phase missiles etc. are no excuses. The above Vasari units are ADVANCED ALIEN WARSHIPS. It is rediculous to give them lower DPS then a primitive human civilian ship, in any circumstances.

A damage boost for Vasari cap ships I say!

at minimum a damage boost for the Antorak Marauder would be appreciated. that ship is armed only with wet noodles and 'yo mama' jokes, some real guns would be nice.

the rest of the ships seem to do alright even with current dps. maybe the Vulkoras Desolator could use a little love too since it dramatically underperforms until you've researched at least the first 4 upgrades for phase missiles.

Obviously someone's never tried clicking on the Kortul's Power Surge.

And where are your numbers, wnmnkh?

I mean, there have been tests of cap ship vs cap ship combats, but no proper dps tests so far.

What times did you use for weapon refire rates, did you check all guns, or only front batteries and so on.

I do not want to question your observation, just curious how you get to these results.

But well, after doing some research... you are right. I guess you used a similar source for your conclusions:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p7xc_snd9Cc-6o2UwvPEWUg&gid=4

I use this sheet for reference... I am not that sure if it is correct, that's it. The weapon arcs are also tricky. The Egg seems to manage to bring most weapons to bear at any angle e.g. Maybe Vasari have the advantage to use the weapons at their disposal much better for focus fire than other races, no clue. The Sova Carrier e.g. has to fire broadsides to get most DPS, and also does so ingame. The front mounted guns do not fire in this case, which can be easily be observed.

Maybe it again boils down to abilities. Someone already mentioned the Kortul Devastator's fast fire, the nanocrap of the Egg is not bad either and effectively adds to damage, but this leaves the Skirantra Carrier and the Antorak Marauder in the dust.

I must ask you....

Does Skirantra have power Surge?

Then why other capital ships, such as Marza, Halcyon have abilities that boost dps despite their damage value is already high?

You'd better answer these carefully.

No, they don't bring most weapon at any angle. See...

17dps for teh EGG!, 25.5 for Akkan in frontal, 19 for Akkan in sides.

The damage output of Akkan is much better: while do OK against teh EGG with focused fire, Akkan does enormous damage around it.

As a result TEC and Advent tend to clear the neutral planets much quicker (Vasari only supress them using teh EGG!'s nano)

*I checked the numbers on that site using the reference files, and I can say those numbers are quite correct.

Because, as IC said, they don't balance unit to unit, but race to race.

Careful enough for you?

And guys, phase missile does nothing on this issue.

All races can upgrade their weapon system..... I mean what's the point of that?

Vasari have phase missles  wich bypass shields depending on upgrade,,,,  Capital ships are NOT combat ships no matter how you look at them,  they are support  even the TEC marza with damage ability is a SUPPORT ability

See:

This is what I am asking, so what's race thingy that is reasonable enough to cripple its capital ships' damage output that make them completely unusable as first cap in the game?

Do I say they are combat ships?

I mean, it is amusing that there is capital ship balance thread written by me and someone still brings this.

Here's another funny thing for you to munch on, and I'll just do the battleships here:

Kortul: 2650 hull base, +115 per level = 3685 at 10.
          1425 shield base, +165 per level = 2910 at 10.

Kol: 3000 hull base, +120 per level = 4080 at 10.
       1250 shield base, +135 per level = 2465 at 10.

Radiance: 2200 hull base, +90 per level = 3010 at 10.
               1750 shield base, +180 per level = 3370 at 10.

They don't even all have the same survivability! The Kol has 395 more hull than Kortul, but the Radiance has 675 less. Surely that's unbalanced.

Your inability to see the rationale is due to your inability to think about more than one stat at a given time in its absolute form.

If, in my example above, I called capital ships unbalanced because their hp is different, everyone would point out they have different abilities, different damage outputs, etc. The same works backwards.

Annatar, you are funny as hell. You pick the one side only that supports.

How hp is different? I mean your numbers prove yourself wrong.

3685+2910 = 6595 Kortul....

6545 for Kol...

6580 for Radiance.

Numbers are very tightly close. And no, they don't do different damage outputs; TEC and Advent are very close or same in dps output. Only Vasari suffers.

At last, you have not answered my question. This is not a answer.

See, the situation is like this.

Q : So why high school students cannot drink?

There are two answers for that.

A1 : High school students are worse than college students.

A2 : Because they don't have enough control over their minds. The brains are not fully developed yet and....

See, what you giving me is A1 type answer, while I want A2 type answer.

The way I see it is yes the caps of the Vasari are lower then others races. But have you checked out their frigates and cruisers. Total opposite! Therefore the other races, especially the Advent, are more combat intentsive the Vasari are more supportive therefore they dont need higher dps but better fleet abilities.

What? for cost per performance they are remarkably similar.

Partial compensation for their lower DPS is their cultural damage bonus (up to +15% damage).

Shield bypass has the most significant effect on Advent fleets who are heavily shield dependent and their hulls are the most fragile of all the races we have in Sins. It gives Vasari players a method of mitigating the Progenitor's Shield Restore ability as the Advent do not have a repair ability that can adequately sustain their hulls.

You also do realize that abilities are usually the primary reason why a player would construct a particular capital ship? HP/Shields/AM/Armor, even DPS are usually given second priority to abilities. Stripping a capital ship of its abilities simply makes it a hardened, expensive heavy cruiser.

and yet i see you starting a thread about damage per second on capital ships?

did you even  consider that the ships with lower damage and/or hull actually DO have superior abilities like annatar is trying to tell you?

even toguh i think the comparrison is a little....  WRONG  ?

he is giving you A2,  he even wrote down the numbers for you

"btw annatar do you know those values from the head??     cuase that'd really convince me of you being a Soase geek

the spreadsheet in question has numerous glaring errors on it. i'd like to point out one in particular since it came up in this post.

here is the reference line from the spreadsheet regarding the Jarrasul

13 wave/ front

5 wave/front

18.7 phase missile/sides+rear

the phase missile line is totally wrong. first of all its a pulse beam not a phase missile. second of all the firing arcs are not sides+rear. there are 6 beams on the little bulge on the bottom of the ship. 2 of them can fire directly frontal, the other 4 of them are mostly sides facing. its a similar setup to the 6 pulse beams on Kortul.

if the real firing arcs were accounted for correctly you'd get a DPS of 23.2 for targets that were exactly to the front of a Jarrasul. even more frequently it can fire with 4 of the beams to a target that is just slighty to the side. it will still be in range of the frontal wave cannons but will get hit by 12.4 of the pulse beams dps for a total damage of 29.4.

thats what i observe in game and to me that makes alot of sense because it gives numbers that are directly comparable to those of the Akkan. better than the Akkan actually.

im just trying to say that making arguments off of spread-sheets or even the data in the entity files of the game is just not very accurate or revealing of anything useful. you'd have to take the numbers and then couple them with your real in-game observations to understand how it really plays out.