The Attributes

These are suggested attributes for units, champions and creatures:

Strength = The strength of a unit determines how much damage the unit can do in addition to the type of weapon being used.  This also determines if the unit can break free from physical bonds such as tangling vines or a giants grasp or a spiders web.

Size = Ideally the size should play the largest factor in determining the hitpoints for a unit.  The most simple way to measure size would be judging the unit as if it were rolled into a ball since an 8_foot snake would still overall be smaller than a human where as an 8_foot troll would be larger than a human.  Larger units are also easier to strike with ranged attacks.

Intelligence = Intelligence helps resisting many types of spells such as illusions since an intelligent individual would be able to identify flaws within the illusions convincing thier mind it's not real.  This skill also helps mages cast their spells more effectively.

Wisdom = Wisdom determines how clever and focused a unit can become during tough decisions and moments of pressure.  This skill is for resisting temptations such as seduction, anger, greed, sloth, etc., etc.,  This skill also helps priests cast their spells more effectively.

Dexterity = Dexterity determines the hand-eye-body coordination of a unit which assists for avoiding battlefield attacks such as trample, charge, swallow_whole, etc., .  This skill is also used for avoiding traps.

Thickness = Thickness determines the physical density of a unit so the game can judge the actual amount of physical damage which occurs.  The average naked human would have a rating of 5 while a naked iron golem would have a rating of 45.  A solider having his mace successfully striking each of these units with the same amount of force would have very different results.... yes the iron golem would usually take zero damage, but 1 point should occassionally be possible.

Defence = Defence determines the amount of armor which has been added on a unit from what's being worn or from spells.  This is based on what we've seen from the developer journals.

Attack = Attack is one variable used for determining if the unit successfully strikes during battle.  This is based on what we've seen from the developer journals.

Precision = Precision is one variable used for determining ranged attacks.  Specific spells, items and/or abilities can help this attribute based on the surroundings or the eyes themselves.  For example a goblin would have night vision and not suffer penalties when in the dark.

Training Experience = Multiple types of training should be available such as ranged attack, piercing weapons, slashing weapons, crushing weapons, swimming, mountaineering, siege weapons, stealth, hunting, etc., etc., .  While a unit trained for battle might be more skilled at preventing damage in combat this should not be directly related with hitpoints since a paralyzed trained unit would die just as quickly as a paralyzed untrained unit.  Currently training plays an unbalanced role for providing a drastic increase with hitpoints allowing paralyzed trained units to have a significantly higher chance of surviving... which I hope is corrected.

Movement = Movement should contain two parts, the battlefield movement and map movement.  This is only logical since some fantasy creatures such as most undead units or magical elemental summons do not need to stop and rest unlike animals and humans. 

Resistances = There should be multiple types of resistances such as poison, fire, cold, lightning, and possibly others such as disease, piercing, crushing, slashing, etc., .

Terrain Boundaries = Default boundaries setting is Lava, Tar and Water.

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The reasons for these attributes is so units can have specific builds which allow them to be more realistic fantasy.  For example if I wanted to create a fantasy creature such as the Gelatinous Cube it would need high piercing, cold and slashing resistance as well as poison immunity.  This unit would move slow on the battlefield, but since it never sleeps it may travel almost as far a group of walking men on the world map.  I would also provide the unit with very poor dexterity, precision and defence with a thickness of 3.  However it would have a large size, large strength and a swallow whole type of attack.  This creature lacks any reasoning and thus zero wisdom which means immunity to seduction and other temptations.  It's intelligence would be equal to that of an amoeba and more vunerable to mind attack spells.   

I would hope it's possible to create unique creatures such as this within Elemental... so hopefully this list helps.

 

5,828 views 6 replies
Reply #1 Top

Good list, though I kinda like the "keep it simple, stupid" stat systems of games like master of magic.   You know, where there is basically only 3 or 4 stats.

HP

Attack

Defence

Ammo/Mana

Maybe:   (in that only a few units would have different)

Move

Terrain Boundaries

 

Based on the "Balance of Power" post, I'm under the strong impression that Stardock is going for something similar, without all that fancy "Thickness" or "precision" stuff.   I mean, does it really need to be that complex?   What would it really gain from having a complex system.

I'm torn.  I love complex systems, but at the same time, for the sake of sanity, I don't want a game where users are able to custom design units with so many attributes.  It would be a nightmare to sort and balance.

Reply #2 Top

My idea:

 

Size: may or may not be needed with the other stuff

Terrain Boundaries: could be a modifier.


Hit Points: how much damage the unit takes

Attack: How likely a unit is to hit

Defense: How likely a unit is to avoid hitting

Damage: How much it hurts

Resistance: How likely a unit is to save vs spell

Morale: The unit's morale

Speed: How quickly a unit moves

Subordination: How difficult a unit or general is to command

 

Then special modifiers, such as

For a spear unit +25% defense vs cavalry

Water Elemental: Immune to water-based magic

+50% damage taken from fire-based magic

 

Leaders/Heroes would have leader effects they would grant to their armies

Like Spear Trainer: +50% XP gained by all spear units

as well as a command rating

Command: how many points of units a leader my have in a stack in battle.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 1
Good list, though I kinda like the "keep it simple, stupid" stat systems of games like master of magic.   You know, where there is basically only 3 or 4 stats.

HP

Attack

Defence

Ammo/Mana

Maybe:   (in that only a few units would have different)

Move

Terrain Boundaries

 

Based on the "Balance of Power" post, I'm under the strong impression that Stardock is going for something similar, without all that fancy "Thickness" or "precision" stuff.   I mean, does it really need to be that complex?   What would it really gain from having a complex system.

I'm torn.  I love complex systems, but at the same time, for the sake of sanity, I don't want a game where users are able to custom design units with so many attributes.  It would be a nightmare to sort and balance.

Well  I tried to provide the most important aspects and each serves a unique purpose.  If the game is relatively only 4 basic statistics it leaves several questions. 

What would determine mind attacks(damage, control, illusions)? 

What would determine the ability to dodge traps or avoid a charging rhino?

What would determine why an army of macemen work better against skelletons than an army of spearmen?

Should it not be possible for a unit to be trained as a crossbowman, another trained as a swordsman and another trained for using both types of weapons?

Since each attribute has a specific purpose it shouldn't be difficult to sort what is provided for each unit.  Considering Dominions_3 has more attributes and was created by only two individuals I see no reason why a more current game from a larger company could not provide more than 4 or 5. 

During the 1990s the programming size for games were seriously limited so developers had to make everything simple and compact... we don't face this problem today.

Reply #4 Top

"During the 1990s the programming size for games were seriously limited so developers had to make everything simple and compact... we don't face this problem today."

The problem wasn't size per say but more the delivery media available. Today, with DVD's and the Net, to allow basically unlimited sizes, only retreival time becomes a barrier and then only to the user/buyer, but the Dev's still want to expose their products to the largest purchasing group possible.

That means they are shackled by CPU cycles now. And yes, everyone should have the BEST gaming gear, but sadly that is not the case, and many who would buy a game can be shut out if the complexity, even background/unseen complexity forces the Dev to Spec games to only modern gear.

It happens all the time. The first question seen on so many gaming Forums for announced new products is "What are the Min. Specs going to be?"

So yes complexity is now more an issue of the PC being dealt with as opposed to the space a Dev has use to deliver his product. Different problems, but a rather similar conundrum...

 

Reply #5 Top

What would determine mind attacks(damage, control, illusions)?

the regular attack stat.   just because it comes from a different medium doesn't make them any better or worse at attacking.

What would determine the ability to dodge traps or avoid a charging rhino?

the defense stat.  It represents the ability to not be hurt in such situations.   Especially since a charging rhino is a standard attack in my book.   They would just have a bonus to damage for charging or something.   The trap I understand why you'd want a different stat, but the rhino is no different from a charging knight.

What would determine why an army of macemen work better against skelletons than an army of spearmen?

I'd put that as atributes on the weapons and creatures themselves.   I'd create a weapon that replaces the standard mace that is in every way identical except it has a 'kills skeletons' ability.  And then on my skeletons I'd but you "is killed by weapons with the 'kills skeletons' ability" or something to that level.

Should it not be possible for a unit to be trained as a crossbowman, another trained as a swordsman and another trained for using both types of weapons?

yes, it would work a lot like the various ranged attackers in Master of Magic.    The only difference is that the attack and damage would change subtly based on the weapon equiped.   And that wouldn't change anything, since the attack value would just be recalculated based on what weapon was equiped.   If they were not trained in it, they couldn't equip it at all.

Considering Dominions_3

you caught me.   haven't played that yet.   Sorry, I've been meaning to check it out though, since it comes up in conversation so often around here.

During the 1990s the programming size for games were seriously limited so developers had to make everything simple and compact... we don't face this problem today.

Well its not stardock's programmers that would have the problem.   its us, the users.   This game is a game that is supposed to be easy to mod, and if we have to sift through 30 stat variables just to make a minor edit to a unit, then it won't be that user friendly.  

Also, complex does not = better.   It is just complex.  I mean look at the sonic team, they can't get it through their heads that sticking to the older simpler system is actually the best option.   I'm not saying a complex system is bad, and I would even help balance any 'advance stats' mods that would expand upon whatever system stardock has in place.  I just don't think for the scope of elemental as I see it, that we should want that many different stats.  (my system is super basic, so maybe more complex than that, but *shrug*)

Reply #6 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 5

What would determine mind attacks(damage, control, illusions)?


the regular attack stat.   just because it comes from a different medium doesn't make them any better or worse at attacking.

That creates a problem where the unit will automatically be equal with all types of attacks... hence a strong mind attack also means a strong melee attack and strong missile attack.  On the same note what would determine the ability to resist mind attacks?  This limits the diversity of units.

Quoting landisaurus, reply 5

What would determine the ability to dodge traps or avoid a charging rhino?


the defense stat.  It represents the ability to not be hurt in such situations.   Especially since a charging rhino is a standard attack in my book.   They would just have a bonus to damage for charging or something.   The trap I understand why you'd want a different stat, but the rhino is no different from a charging knight. 

Currently we already know the armor being worn increases defense... there's no way someone wearing FULL PLATE armor would be able to more easily dodge a rhino as compared to someone wearing a leather jacket and cloth pants. 


Quoting landisaurus, reply 5

What would determine why an army of macemen work better against skelletons than an army of spearmen?


I'd put that as atributes on the weapons and creatures themselves.   I'd create a weapon that replaces the standard mace that is in every way identical except it has a 'kills skeletons' ability.  And then on my skeletons I'd but you "is killed by weapons with the 'kills skeletons' ability" or something to that level.

Yes this method would work... IF  its available.


Quoting landisaurus, reply 5

Should it not be possible for a unit to be trained as a crossbowman, another trained as a swordsman and another trained for using both types of weapons?


yes, it would work a lot like the various ranged attackers in Master of Magic.    The only difference is that the attack and damage would change subtly based on the weapon equiped.   And that wouldn't change anything, since the attack value would just be recalculated based on what weapon was equiped.  

Your response is the Training Experience attribute I described... so yes I hope to see the availability where a champion or unit can be trained in multiple areas.


Quoting landisaurus, reply 5
Well its not stardock's programmers that would have the problem.   its us, the users.   This game is a game that is supposed to be easy to mod, and if we have to sift through 30 stat variables just to make a minor edit to a unit, then it won't be that user friendly.  

Okay I listed around a dozen attributes... not 30 which is more than double from my original post.   Also in regards to modding Dominions3 has lots and lots and lots of modded content available which shows proof the 13 attributes I listed would not be any problem for gamers.  The Dominions3 modding also requires manually editing text files... thus as long as Stardock provides a  GUI  interface for basic modding it will be 20times easier than Dominions3. 

On the same note look at the deep quality of attributes from Neverwinter Nights... this did not slow or prevent modding either for this game.  So whether its TBS or RPG a simple list of attributes do not hinder modding as it only provides more unique creations.


Quoting landisaurus, reply 5

Also, complex does not = better.   It is just complex.  I mean look at the sonic team, they can't get it through their heads that sticking to the older simpler system is actually the best option.   I'm not saying a complex system is bad, and I would even help balance any 'advance stats' mods that would expand upon whatever system stardock has in place.  I just don't think for the scope of elemental as I see it, that we should want that many different stats.  (my system is super basic, so maybe more complex than that, but *shrug*)

What I've listed above is not complex... it provides simple game depth.

Wisdom = Clerics;  Intelligence = Wizards;  Thickness = % of physical damage;  etc,   etc,

Pure and simple quality game depth.     

Super basic = Less options