Dubai vs Sweden

Perhaps all Swedish Tennis matches should be held in Dubai for security reasons.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

Can a liberal explain to me exactly which rational criticism of Israel could be regarded by the police as so violent that a sports event had to take place without an audience and why Sweden is more anti-Semitic than Dubai?

The association of sporting teams with the political positions of their governments is hardly new. I suspect Israel gets criticised for the same reason that apartheid-era South African sides were banned from touring practically anywhere.

Israel's treatment of its majorities is rather better, so they get to tour. But, righteous fervour being what it is, they get to do so with no less enthusiastic opposition than the Springboks used to receive.

On a side note, Israel as a nationstate does its best to appear a poor global citizen. I for one wouldn't trust the state after the local embassy blatantly investigated me following an invitation from them to attend a meeting. I wouldn't take it out on an individual, but when I think Israel I think intrusive and overbearing defensiveness bordering on hostile xenophobia.

But that's just my story. I suspect most of the people who the police were protecting against were just your garden variety OTTers. I'm sure you get them in Germany, Ireland and Israel. A strong desire to fight the good fight coupled with utter ignorance aren't necessarily signs of anti-semitism.

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(JU messing up quotes again...)

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I understand that there are many people who disagree with the position of the Israeli government, specifically the position that Jews have a right to live. But I am still surprised that Dubai is safer than Sweden in that regard.

I suspect Israel gets criticised for the same reason that apartheid-era South African sides were banned from touring practically anywhere.

Maybe I shouldn't have been so politically correct.

The police are not protecting Israelis from "criticism". They are protecting them from violence.

And the reason can hardly be the same. Israel doesn't have apartheid laws.

(And before you tell me that occupation is the same as apartheid, let me tell you that I grew up in occupied territory and also didn't have the same rights as citizens of the occupying power. Nobody considered that apartheid.)

Israel's treatment of its majorities is rather better, so they get to tour. But, righteous fervour being what it is, they get to do so with no less enthusiastic opposition than the Springboks used to receive.

Treatment of its "majorities"? "Enthusiastic opposition"? Thousands of people attack a few Israelis and for you that is "enthusiastic opposition"?

Grand. Jews are being slaughtered in Israel by Arabs and in Sweden by Swedes. So where should they live?

On a side note, Israel as a nationstate does its best to appear a poor global citizen.

On the contrary, Israel does its best to be an excellent global citizen. Israel produces microchips and software, irrigation equipment, printing equipment, the list goes on and on. Iraqi children are being flown into Israel for operations. Refugees from the Sudan are trying to reach Israel, fleeing their Arab rulers and genocide.

Israel is the only country in the middle east that acknowledges homosexual marriage (and one of the few that doesn't execute gays). It is also the only country in the middle east where Muslims and other religions have the same rights and privileges and where Jews and Arabs live together in peace (except for Morocco).

The fact that people hate Israel anyway has hardly much to do with what Israel does. Which other country would let itself be bombed for three years before responding violently?

Morocco is occupying Western Sahara, Syria is occupying a large part of Kurdistan. But I don't see those same nutters attacking Syrians or Moroccans (or attack mosques all over the world). Strange, isn't it?

But the weirdest thing is that there are always good explanations. There hasn't been a single attack on Jews in history that didn't have a perfectly innocent explanation. Nobody ever attacked Jews because of anti-Semitism. That never happens.

I for one wouldn't trust the state after the local embassy blatantly investigated me following an invitation from them to attend a meeting. I wouldn't take it out on an individual, but when I think Israel I think intrusive and overbearing defensiveness bordering on hostile xenophobia.

So what exactly was your experience with or in Israel or with Israelis that you think "intrustive and overbearing defensiveness borderong on hostile xenophobia"? And what is "xenophobia" when you are talking about a country where Ethiopians, Russians, Arabs, Kurds, Turks, North-Africans, and Germans live together with equal rights?

I don't know if you have ever been in Israel, but if you ever go, you might notice that a single Israeli city usually consists of a mix of nationalities that you will have never seen anywhere else. I for one don't know of any other place where you walk out of a store (Iranian cloths merchant) directly into the next (Ethiopian souvernir shop) just to walk past a synagogue standing next to a mosque to get to the Iraqi (or Lebanese) restaurant behind the church. I would hardly call it Xenophobia.

I don't know of any country more open to other cultures than Israel.

But that's just my story. I suspect most of the people who the police were protecting against were just your garden variety OTTers. I'm sure you get them in Germany, Ireland and Israel. A strong desire to fight the good fight coupled with utter ignorance aren't necessarily signs of anti-semitism.

You will be surprised to hear that while in Germany synagogues have police protection, mosques and churches in Israel do not require such. And while Jews in most of Europe hardly openly show their religion or ethnicity to others, Arabs walk in Israel without fear of being identified as Arabs.

So I'm afraid your example is not true. While I believe that these things can also happen in Germany and Ireland; I cannot add Israel to that group, or, apparently, Dubai.

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I assume if one of the Israeli Tennis players were from Sderot and opposed to his government's politics (for example, he might argue that it is perfectly OK for a Jew to live in a bunker for years and years and therefor opposes shooting back at the terrorists), it would be a travesty if one of the Swedisn non-anti-Semites were to kill him thinking that he was one of those evil Jews (who does not want to live in a bunker for years and years).

I am an evil Zionist.

I believe that Jews should not have to live in bunkers.

The world can despise me for it, but I won't change my mind about that.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

And before you tell me that occupation is the same as apartheid, let me tell you that I grew up in occupied territory and also didn't have the same rights as citizens of the occupying power. Nobody considered that apartheid.

And? Names are just names; occupiers are always treated with disrespect. Look at the US - it occupies Iraq and suddenly it's the Great Satan even to its own citizens.

Grand. Jews are being slaughtered in Israel by Arabs and in Sweden by Swedes. So where should they live?

I wasn't aware that Jews had been slaughtered in Sweden. I assumed it was much like G7 summits, where you get heaps of young people all hopped up on inconsistent international relations theory and misplaced courage out to save the world. Having googled, I can see now that the situation is worse than it initially appeared. I withdraw the comparison.

So what exactly was your experience with or in Israel or with Israelis that you think "intrustive and overbearing defensiveness borderong on hostile xenophobia"?

I was invited by a representative of Israel to attend a meeting at the embassy. Israeli security harrassed my former employers demanding information about me and subjected me to a full search when I arrived. I was led to believe this was standard practice. I was not impressed with the way the state of Israel treats its guests, and concluded that I never wanted to have any further contact with the state of Israel, which I found overbearing, intrusive and lacking in any subtlety whatsoever. I make a distinction between Israel and Israelis here - A state is not a people.

I don't know if you have ever been in Israel, but if you ever go, you might notice that a single Israeli city usually consists of a mix of nationalities that you will have never seen anywhere else. I for one don't know of any other place where you walk out of a store (Iranian cloths merchant) directly into the next (Ethiopian souvernir shop) just to walk past a synagogue standing next to a mosque to get to the Iraqi (or Lebanese) restaurant behind the church. I would hardly call it Xenophobia.

Interesting. It's not a part of the world commonly associated with multiculturalism, but that seems to be what Israel has. I guess it would look much like your standard shopping strip in Australian or US cities.

You will be surprised to hear that while in Germany synagogues have police protection, mosques and churches in Israel do not require such. And while Jews in most of Europe hardly openly show their religion or ethnicity to others, Arabs walk in Israel without fear of being identified as Arabs.

If they're citizens, sure. But if they live in the occupied territories and they farm on the other side of the wall, the state goes to great lengths to make their life difficult. Their Arab identification brings them considerable hardship.

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And? Names are just names; occupiers are always treated with disrespect. Look at the US - it occupies Iraq and suddenly it's the Great Satan even to its own citizens.

Yes, it's weird.

Do you know that the US is not the Great Satan to the Iraqis? I encountered considerable less hatred for the US in Iraq (among Kurds, Arabs, and Assyrians) than I did in an average city in Europe.

And as for the relations with the occupying powers, in Arbil people sell souvenirs to each other (they don't have tourists), pins that show a Kurdish flag and a Korean flag (the occupying power in the Arbil region). I'll take a picture of one of them and upload it with a link here. It's quite interesting, I think.

I wasn't aware that Jews had been slaughtered in Sweden. I assumed it was much like G7 summits, where you get heaps of young people all hopped up on inconsistent international relations theory and misplaced courage out to save the world. Having googled, I can see now that the situation is worse than it initially appeared. I withdraw the comparison.

Ok.

I think the issue is that you don't need much courage when you save the world by protesting against Israel (or the US). They won't shoot at you, and nobody will come to your house and try to kill you because it is known that you a supporter of Hamas or the PLO (unless you live in Gaza or the West Bank, where supporting the one will get you into trouble with the other).

Protesting Israel (and attacking Jews) is the safest way to fight for justice. You can be a rebel and be on the safe side of the establishment at the same time. It must feel great.

Interesting. It's not a part of the world commonly associated with multiculturalism, but that seems to be what Israel has. I guess it would look much like your standard shopping strip in Australian or US cities.

The middle east is _Arab_. There is very little room for non-Arab peoples or cultures. They exist, but only in Israel (and now in northern Iraq) do they exist openly. In the Arab world if you are not at least two out of three (non-Bedouin Arab, Muslim, heterosexual), you don't live long. And onlt if you score three out of three can you be more than a second-class citizen. Except in Israel where you can be black, gay, married to another man, Jewish, Muslim, white, Bedouin, Christian, whatever and you are fine.

If they're citizens, sure. But if they live in the occupied territories and they farm on the other side of the wall, the state goes to great lengths to make their life difficult. Their Arab identification brings them considerable hardship.

But they still proudly identify as Arabs and are not afraid to do so. Very few of the few remaining Jews in Arab countries would dare to display an Israeli flag or any Jewish symbol. Arabs in Israel and the territories do it all the time.

The Arabs in the occupied territory do not experience more hardships than I did when I grew up (unless you count the hardships they bring on themselves by attacking people, which I and the other people of Berlin never did back then).

Note that the Arabs in Israel rarely want to become part of an Arab state. Whenever Israel and the PLO discuss the borders, Israeli Arabs protest plans to change the border to include Arab towns in the Arab state. And whenever Jerusalem is discussed, the Arabs in Jerusalem start applying for Israeli passports before they become part of an Arab state.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

And as for the relations with the occupying powers, in Arbil people sell souvenirs to each other (they don't have tourists), pins that show a Kurdish flag and a Korean flag (the occupying power in the Arbil region). I'll take a picture of one of them and upload it with a link here. It's quite interesting, I think.

Please do. Kurdistan is fascinating. If only the Turks could be persuaded to release their rebellious provinces so all Kurds could have their freedom.

Protesting Israel (and attacking Jews) is the safest way to fight for justice. You can be a rebel and be on the safe side of the establishment at the same time. It must feel great.

Conservative youth tend to protest the gay terror, the Islamic threat and abortion, radical youth tend to protest the US empire, corporations, alleged Israeli war crimes and land mines. It's just the way things are.

Note that the Arabs in Israel rarely want to become part of an Arab state. Whenever Israel and the PLO discuss the borders, Israeli Arabs protest plans to change the border to include Arab towns in the Arab state. And whenever Jerusalem is discussed, the Arabs in Jerusalem start applying for Israeli passports before they become part of an Arab state.

Which only makes sense. Israel is the biggest, baddest state in the region. It, to use the military vernacular, rocks balls. Moving to some third-world dump born out of a peace process is unlikely to please anyone who currently lives in first world free market comfort.

What I find interesting is that Palestinians (for a given sense of the word) don't want to be part of Israel. Granted, there are elements of Israel that don't want them as members, but there are so many Palestinians that if they were absorbed into Israel as citizens, Israel would become an Arab state. It's plainly in their self-interest to become Israeli citizens, but they don't advocate for citizenship. History is clearly blinding.

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Please do. Kurdistan is fascinating. If only the Turks could be persuaded to release their rebellious provinces so all Kurds could have their freedom.

http://gallery.me.com/ajbrehm#100043

The man on the key ring thingy is Mustafa Barzani, the father of today's president of the Kurdish region in Iraq. He is of Jewish ancestry and fought against Saddam Hussein for the Shah of Iran.

Conservative youth tend to protest the gay terror, the Islamic threat and abortion, radical youth tend to protest the US empire, corporations, alleged Israeli war crimes and land mines. It's just the way things are.

The difference is that there is an Islamist (not Islamic) threat whereas gays are not a violent problem. Jews are harmless. Nobody fears a Jew on the same plane and no place has ever been attacked by Israel without attacking Israel first (or giving aid and support to such attackers as in the case of Uganda). Black Africans do not flee thousands of miles through the desert trying to reach an Islamic country hoping to escape a Jewish dictator. Some things simply don't happen and everybody knows it.

The protesters don't care.

What I find interesting is that gays have better allies in the Jewish community and Israel than Jews and Israelis have among the gay community. At least that is how I perceive it.

But attacking gays is becoming more difficult. In today's world, they and their supporters are the majority.

[Israeli Arabs wishing to remain Israelis] Which only makes sense. Israel is the biggest, baddest state in the region. It, to use the military vernacular, rocks balls. Moving to some third-world dump born out of a peace process is unlikely to please anyone who currently lives in first world free market comfort.

Yes. But do note that the Druzim (who don't even consider themselves Arabs any more) and the Bedouins have historical connections to the Jews that made them choose sides 80 years ago. The Bedouins are a part of Israel as are the Druzim. It's the remaining non-Bedouin Arabs, Muslim and Christian alike, who have that identity problem. (They never have a problem with demanding that Jews live in a non-Jewish country though.)

What I find interesting is that Palestinians (for a given sense of the word) don't want to be part of Israel. Granted, there are elements of Israel that don't want them as members, but there are so many Palestinians that if they were absorbed into Israel as citizens, Israel would become an Arab state. It's plainly in their self-interest to become Israeli citizens, but they don't advocate for citizenship. History is clearly blinding.

The Arabs believe that they ought to be a great power and aren't. Of course they don't want to be a minority in another country. They want to be the country. History is not giving them what they believe they ought to have. They think that they ought to be the rulers of the entire middle east, and outside Israel and Kurdistan they are. But they are still dirt poor almost everywhere, even when they have an African slave population (like in Sudan).

The big irony is that the word "Palestinian" derives from the Hebrew for "invader". The Canaanites (Israelites and Phoenicians) used the word to describe Greek settlers living at the coast 3000 years ago. The Romans renamed all of Israel "Palestina" 1200 years later (1800 years ago from now).

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

Jews are harmless. Nobody fears a Jew on the same plane and no place has ever been attacked by Israel without attacking Israel first (or giving aid and support to such attackers as in the case of Uganda). Black Africans do not flee thousands of miles through the desert trying to reach an Islamic country hoping to escape a Jewish dictator. Some things simply don't happen and everybody knows it.

Palestinians and Lebanese people have fled Israel though - there's a small refugee community in Australia. That and the allegation, widely mentioned but never confirmed so far as I can tell, that Israel possesses a world nuke makes them a valid threat if you're a bit incredulous. Pop culture Israel seems exactly the sort of country to blow up the world if they face an existential threat.

What I find interesting is that gays have better allies in the Jewish community and Israel than Jews and Israelis have among the gay community. At least that is how I perceive it.

Israel and the Jews suffer the stigma of religion. Gays rarely get on with religious figures, largely because it's the religious who provide the most hate-filled opposition to any sexual rights. Israel is seen as a state for people of a religion, so I'd say some of that mud sticks to Jews too.

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Palestinians and Lebanese people have fled Israel though - there's a small refugee community in Australia.

Yes. And if you believe them they all want to go BACK.

And suddenly, they claim, they want to live in peace among the Jews. I can assure you that none of the Jews who fled Arab countries want to go back.

That and the allegation, widely mentioned but never confirmed so far as I can tell, that Israel possesses a world nuke makes them a valid threat if you're a bit incredulous.

Good.

Pop culture Israel seems exactly the sort of country to blow up the world if they face an existential threat.

Yes. And Israel would do it. It's the last line of defence. The Jews have tried everything else. Now is the point where Israel just says that if the world tried to kill the Jews again, the world will pay.

I hope the world listens.

If the world cannot stop trying to exterminate the Jews because it's morally wrong, the world will hopefully stop trying to exterminate the Jews because it's fecking dangerous.

Israel and the Jews suffer the stigma of religion. Gays rarely get on with religious figures, largely because it's the religious who provide the most hate-filled opposition to any sexual rights. Israel is seen as a state for people of a religion, so I'd say some of that mud sticks to Jews too.

I don't know why people see Israel as a state for people of a religion. Jews are not Mormons. And Israeli Jews are in my experience more secular than Jews elsewhere. I didn't think Jews in the US were considered "religious". From what I see in television they seem to be rather secular. (And those American Jews that I know are usually very secular too.)

The only reason Jews in Israel seem more religious is probably because those who want to can be openly religious there without being attacked. That is otherwise the case only in some American cities and very few cities in Europe and Morocco.

Seeing how America reacts to the concept og "gay weddings" and things like that I find it extremely weird that Americans would consider Israel as a religious place.

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Dubai vs Sweden

The demise of anti-Semitism