Not really.. the youngest mom was 5 years and 10 months old when she gave birth... she got pregnant when she was 5 years and 1 month old... her period started at 9 months and become stable at 2 years. She was normal sized for her age. DNA testing showed that none of her relatives is the father, the father was never found. And her parents are raising the child as her brother.

As a scientist and an atheist I have to agree. Concept occurs at fertilization, anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit.
A human is a colony of genetically identical cells, each cell is a living organism who is independantly alive and can survive outside of the body in PROPER conditions. however the conditions are VERY specific and outside of a lab or a human body do not occur. That is.. the body is a bunch of cells working together to form the conditions they need to survive. And the brain cells actually create sentience to match for that construct.

That being said. Birth rate failure is high, and a bundle of human cells, while a living unique individual human, has yet to develop a personality or sentience, or even a brain. Killing it is no big deal.

And depsite being an atheist, i find it rediculous to think that a loving god would place a soul in a body it KNOWS is going to be aborted / miscarried. If there is a god, and he is a loving one, he would only place souls in babies that are going to be born. 

As an atheist though, I am remiss at the thoughing of killing my own offsprings. Even if they have yet to develop a brain and are just unformed cell bundle, they are still an individual and my child. No soul, but they WILL develop a persona if I allow them to live. To murder them is unthinkable. Sometimes I wish I WAS religious because then I would be content in the knowledge that should it be inconvinient, I can just go for an abortion, safe in the knowledge that my loving god would not have placed a soul in it because he know it would be aborted.

Interesting thought.  But as a Christian I know that it's not about our comfort but our character.  Christ said not to worry about the body but the spirit is what's important.  I know that is foreign to our fleshly thinking but it's true.  It's the spirit that in the end brings life while our mortal bodies weaken and die.   Spiritual eyes is what is needed because our physical ones grow weak and dim.   Almost everything that happens to us I believe is a test.  We either pass or fail and someday we will be graded on the decisions we made in this life.  It's either a P or an F we will be handed and we will have no one to blame but ourselves. 

God's ways are NOT our ways.  Over the years as I've grown and matured in my faith I realized that what didn't make sense when I was a baby Christian now all makes perfect sense.  That only can come about by the wisdom of age (spiritual); to be able to discern things once unknown to me.   So I completely understand your statement here.   But God is a loving God.  He cares for the smallest and the weakest soul.  Our trials and tribulations in this life are never to be separated from the love of God.   He will always be there for us no matter the tribulation we go thru even if it means death.

Kingbee.....on the death of David's child.  How much do you know and understand about the OT law?  If you truly read the passage you quoted above about Nathan and David and understood the law the whole thing would be much clearer for you.

In the Levitical law, if someone killed another's  lamb he was to restore the dead lamb four fold.  So that's why Nathan (the Prophet)  came to David with the story about the man who had only one little lamb in 2 Samuel 12. 

After David heard the story he was outraged at the one who killed the little lamb not understanding that he was the focus of the story.  David EVEN ANSWERED WITH HIS OWN WORDS...."He must pay for that lamb four times over because he did such a thing and had no pity."  v6. 

And that's what happened.  David paid for the death of Uriah with the death of his own newborn son. He had lost focus when he used his physical eyes (lust) instead of his spiritual.   He also lost three other sons over the course of a few years.  So in fact, he paid four times (by the death of four sons) over for the brutal killing of Uriah and the taking of Bathsheba.  Uriah had only one beloved wife while David the King had many wives and much riches. 

Immediately David recognized what he did.  He sinned against God and God alone.  After the death of his child he was ok completely understanding this had to happen.  Again......we always reap what we have sown.  Always.  Sooner or later.  David completely understood that's why the story ended the way it did.  The day the child died.  David stopped mourning.  He knew where the child was and that he would go someday to be with that child.  Later God blessed him with the birth of Solomon (Bathsheba was his mother as well)  to take that dead baby's place.  And you know that Solomon was the wisest king ever and had the greatest kingdom ever. 

Now you know the rest of the story. 

AEORTAR POSTS #33

First point: Other than marital sex between a husband and wife, anyone who engages in sexual behavior opposes chastity and commits a sin against the Sixth Commandment of Almighty God.

In saying such, you evidently don't understand public school sex education.

In today's sex drenched culture do public schools try to keep our children chaste? No, no, no, a thousand times no and you can take that to the bank, preferably a solvent one!  In fact, just the opposite and this is accomplished through 13 years (Kindergarten through 12th grades) of institutionalized "value-free", anything goes comprehensive, contraceptive, permissive sex instruction developed by sex educators from Planned Parenthood and the Sex Information and Education Council of the US. (SEICUS).

Yes, with federal grants, schools across the country are doing what is tantamount to sexually abusing our children.

 Imagine classroom props such as wooden or plastic realistic looking models of an adult male reproductive organ, dental dams, boxes of condoms, packages of flavored lubricants and teachers using these for hands on practice for 6th to 12th graders. The training sessions list sexual behaviors that are presented as natural and appropriate outlets as long as they use condoms or some kind of birth control device. The "diversity-tolerance" exercise works on appropriate attitudes toward homosexuality. Religion is deemed irrelevant and parental values, never mind rights, are not an issue because students are taught to trust themselves to make their own decisions when the time is right for them to engage in sexual activity.

Simply put classroom comprehensive sex education supports sexual experimentation, advises, instructs and prepares our children to engage in sexual activity using condoms, contraceptives and abortion as an option. 

Even though with the acknowledged scourge of AIDS, and the well established data that condoms are ineffective against sexually transmitted diseases and infections, students are being primed to experiment with their bodies as well as with life, disease and potentially death for themselves and others.

Obama is on record as 100% in favor of comprehensive, contraceptive, permissive sex education.  

It's found in Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth; and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

The soul therefore is the breath of God that each one of us has at fertilization when life begins. The soul is the very cause of life and without it the body cannot live. When the soul is separated from the physical body, the body dies.

LULA #7

ZUBAZ #10

El-duderino and Zubaz,

Note I'm talking about hope in the heart and you two are talking about hope in the head, brain, or mind. Two different things.

Consider this. Faith is the beginning of happiness in the mind. It's even more than this becasue it proposes to man the possibility of attaining eternal life with God in Heaven. Faith precedes hope and opens the door for hope to enter the heart and makes us cling to God as the source of our happiness.

The object of hope in the heart is eternal life, everlasting happiness which is quite distinct from the object of hope in the head which moves man to the pursuit of earthly happiness in the world or in the flesh.

Just thoughts.

YUK.

Well, about abortion in the wrenching cases of rape or incest, even though we disagree, continuing the discussion is important becasue comfortable or not, there are some things that need be said.....and, we just might learn a thing or two along the way.

In the Holy Bible, the child of rape was allowed to live and the rapist was put to death...How far have we come from that? Penalties against rape are lenient and the product of the rape, the child in the womb gets the death penalty.

Just yesterday there was a news story that a man was given 10 years imprisonment for viewing child pornography and another man who sexually molested a child got a year and probation!

Oh for Pete's sake, and every law that is written is based on someone's moral code. But since when is abortion on demand a law since it was decreed to the nation by one of the most debated decisions of the Supreme Court. It's the legislative branch that makes law, not the judiciary one.

Isn't it something like less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother? But I have to ask...why an abortion....usually when a mother's life is in jeopardy, the doctor does a surgical procedure that tries to save both the woman and the baby, if at all possible. This is very different than having the baby aborted.

Why make a law of abortion on demand for any social or economic reason, at any time all the way to the ninth month applying to all women when only a very few have such extreme cases?

Is God really condemning a soul to never having a chance to live or does this come down to our free will choices we make? It's never God's desire that any should be killed or aborted. Why blame God for this?  It's our choice to go to that clinic.....not God's. 

When we go thru what we deem a trial in our life (in this case an unwanted pregnancy) we make choices as a result of the trial.  In my case, I chose life instead of death for my unborn child.  That was the right choice.  There is no other choice that makes sense and will bless you abundantly like this.  Choosing death while creating a seemingly instant quick fix turns into anything but later on.  It's something the mother will always carry with her long after the child she was carrying is torn from her womb.  It's also something she can not undo.  Going thru with an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy while hard at first will certainly not be regretted later.  In fact, quite often when we make quick instant decisions we do live to regret it later. 

Does what?  What diff does it matter about when the soul enters the body?   It has no bearing on whether or not we have the right to take another's life.   Psalm 139 says this:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.  I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.  My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.  When I was woven together i the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body."

I remember when I was pregnant with my first son...I knew immediately within two weeks of conception I was pregnant.  My mother couldn't believe I could know that early but I had what I kept referring to a stich in my side.  It felt just exactly like it says here about being knit together and I had no idea about this scripture at the time.  I just kept saying it felt like I had a stich in my side.  It was very bothersome and very strong.  It would be like having two fingers stitched together and feeling it while you were being stitched up.  Later when I did read this scripture I just sat there thinking this is amazing. 

I'd say no soul since it was man and not God in the work of creating.

VarekRaith posts:

What do you mean RELAX? My freedom of religion isn't going anywhere???

It's just the opposite...we must stay vigilant or our freedoms will be taken away, religious and otherwise!

Haven't you heard about the bill introduced in the Connecticut Senate to reorganize the financial and pastoral structure of the Catholic Church?  

Yes, religiously, from a conscience pov we will always be free to believe what we want.....but that's not the point....it's also the freedom to express my religious beliefs through speech and association that concerns me and rightly so. 

Take, for example, the politically protected sexual behavior of homosexuality....I imagine it will be sooner rather than later when the Holy Bible will be deemed as "hate speech" because it condemns homosexuality as a sin and religious people like me will be silenced, punished with fines or even imprisoned for defending Scripture and the Chruch's teachings.  

It's already happening in Canada and it's coming here.....which side will you be on when that happens? I hope you'll defend my unalienable right to freedom of speech and association.

well it's hard to budge when you're right!  The question is who's right? 

I highly doubt this would happen.

No offense, but this smells of a persecution complex. There are just too many (fervent/steadfast) religious individuals in the States to let this happen. On that note, how many people have truly been silenced, or thrown in jail in modern times (Let's say the past 50) for expressing their faith versus making a derogatory statement?The catch with freedom of speech/expression is that most think that means they can say anything they want, that's wrong.

It seems to me that most Christians (admitteldy, athiests and others as well) think they can make any derogatory statement about anything they want, and have it fall under freedom of religion, or expression/speech. In a civilized society there are certain expectations. It is sort of like a parent settind down the rules for their children.

How would this play into procreation? Would you still consider it God creating the life, or the man and woman creating the life?

Even though I am not fond of Abortion, I'm going to play devil's advocate. So, you're going to take away the right to choose (a liberty), at the expense of ending abortion? How quaint, and decidely ironic.