Where has the value add gone?

Where the hell is my cloth map dude!

from Sins Forums

Go to a store.  Buy a AAA title (such as Spore) now also buy a budget game (such as Homeworld: Cataclysm) and return home.  Sit there and look at the games.  Now because you are on these forums you probably have some form of insider knowledge about how much programmers are paid, project over runs and how much it costs to build a game.  Ignore that and put yourself in the mindset of a consumer (yes yes, OM NOM NOM NOM... up the IQ slightly... thanks). 

 

Now the AAA title will have come in a plastic DVD style jewel case with a gloss print inlay behind the plastic facia. Inside will be a silver, pressed, disk and a thin manual explaining the basics of the game (pointing you to the disk for a PDF full manual) and perhaps some minor fluff to do with promotions along with a registration card.  Ok, we've disected a £30+ game.  Lets set that aside and move on to our £5 budget product.

It too comes in a plastic DVD style jewel case, to touch it's the same quality plastics as before and has the same gloss print inlay.  Opening the case we find a pressed silver disk, a thin manual that points us to the full one stored on the disk and once again there is an equal amount of fluff tucked away.

So both of these products weigh the same, have pretty much the same quality of silk screening, paper and print quality applied to them and whilst different games from a value add point of view their is nothing to seperate them.  Blatently either one of those products is vastly over priced... or vastly under priced.

Lets travel back to 2001 and pull apart another game.  This time we'll be using the initial retail of Neverwinter Nights.  It has a printed cardboard box, three pressed disks each in its own paper wallet a manual which goes in to some detail about the game, options, spells and abilities, a fold out map of the area I'll be playing in along with a poster.  Paper quality is good as is the silk screening on the disks.  This cost £30ish.

Now lets go back further (you lot get in the TARDIS whilst I mug the Time Lord for the keys).  Back to the days of Microprose and the 'black box' games.  £30ish gets me a copy of F-19 Stealth Fighter for the Atari ST.  It has a large black, heavy duty, cardboard box with a full colour, gloss print sleave.  A box so heavy duty my cat once slept in it with nothing untoward happening.  Inside this box are 6 (yes 6!!!) silk screen floppy disks in a paper wrapper to keep them together.  The manual is printed on gloss paper and covers all aspects of the game, both fictional (war settings, the F-19 itself) and factual (missiles, bombs, how radars work... most of it lifted from Janes).  There are fold out maps for all of the war zones and a keyboard overlay. 

Now I wish to clarify here, this wasn't the special edition of F-19, it wasn't limited edition nor was it a store special.  That was what you got in the bog standard version of the game.

So, I'm spending the same amount of money on a purchase (in the £30 - £40 price range) yet as the years have gone by I'm getting less for my actual money.  Am I enjoying Spore substantially more than I did F-19 or Neverwinter? Well considering Spore sits on a shelf and Neverwinter has never really been uninstalled (and I playing F-19 for litterally years)... no.  So the enjoyment factor isn't compensating for the 'missing product'.

So, dude, where the hell is my cloth map?

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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

As an addendum I'll pull apart one of my more recent purchases.  Sins of a Solar Empire. 

Now this game cost less than the AAA title but more than a budget offering (£20 give or take an odd number of pence for the digital only version).  Their is no box, DVD case, printing of any kind.  Their is however, AFIC a PDF manual tucked away in the games install folder which covers most aspects of playing the game, installation (obviously a clone of the retail version). 

Value add wise the digital version allowed me to download a keyboard overlay of sorts and the orchestral sound track in DRM free MP3 format along with a papercraft of the box (neat touch and as cynical as I am this made me smile) and I seem to remember a A4 PDF poster.

Now my thoughts on the sound track are my own but for £20 it doesn't leave me thinking "And my money went where?" it feels spot on as far as value for money goes.   So unlike other titles it seems to hit the right balance between the asking price and the value added content.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

The value for me, and perhaps most gamers, isn't in the artwork on the box or the presence of a disk (versus a download), the value is in the play of the game.  That will be different for all of us since we are all different.  I remember some of the older games (like MoM, Civ I, PG, Stars!) where I would sit down at the computer after I got home from work and then glance up at the clock and see it was 1 AM.  That seemed to become increasingly rare in strategy games so I switched to Lineage2 and found the excitement again about 4 years ago.  That is fading and I didn't find it again until last night.  I looked at the clock and it was after midnight.

What was I playing?  Spores.  I got it a week or so and the first four stages were mildly amusing but not captivating.  I got to the space stage last night for the first time and for the first time in years I wish I could ditch work for the rest of the weekl. 

So the game will vary from player to player based on our preferences, but it is nice to have found some value added, at least for me.  I hope and expect that Elemental will be the same.

SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

I would agree to a degree.  Good games need little to none value add... the perception of what makes a game 'good' is pretty much up to the individual (i.e. you like Spore, I'm not it's biggest fan) and all the 'plastic crap and cloth maps' in the world will not change someones fundemental optinion of the game.

Perhaps I'm just looking back with rose tinted spectacles, but I do kind of miss those maps and the Janes sections of manuals in simulations. I also agree that the 1AM effect seems to be getting quite rare in games these days.

Perhaps we're getting old and need to boot the kids off our lawns? :)

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I understand the good feeling of getting a bunch of stuff in the box and a nice thick manual, but that stuff costs and I would rather not pay the extra. 

Games seem to be about £25 now if you buy online, which is cheaper than they were when I was younger.

It's also hard to compete based on extra stuff in the box, because it's well, inside the box, where you can't see it. And putting 'comes with cloth map' on there somewhere is probably not going to sell you extra copies.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

F19, wow, I really miss playing that game. Don't think I've had that game installed since just before Win95 came out. That was a really great game for it's day.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Lol, does anyone remember Empire Earth's Manuel? that was a mix between a novel and a paper weight. i had text books smaller then that thing.

Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

So, I'm spending the same amount of money on a purchase (in the £30 - £40 price range) yet as the years have gone by I'm getting less for my actual money.

Of course. Because your money is worth less now. It's called "inflation". You can have it one of two ways: you pay the same for less than you used to, or you pay more for the same.

£40 isn't what it used to be.

Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

If I buy a game, it's for the game rather than the 'frills' like a fancier box, a nice manual, a poster, etc.

If I want that, then I'd look for a special/limited edition version or something.

If I forego all of that however, I can get the game for significantly less, meaning much more enjoyment for the money I've spent. You're comparing a game now with a game before, but several big differences: Firstly, costs+quality - your average 'AAA' title now will cost more to make than the average AAA title 5 or 10 years ago. Similarly, the quality is likely to be far better (graphics will be better, sound will on average be better, and because the engine capabilities will have increased, and be able to make better use of the improved graphics, on average gameplay will be better). So I guess you could then look at it and think 'well, a top game now with all the manual+poster stuff might cost £40, while back then it cost £30, but it's still good value for that, and I can pick it up for £30 still if I'm prepared to just get the game and not much else'.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

I will say though I do miss the days of the posters that came with some games!  lol I guess then again 10 years ago there was no such thing as alt tabbing and checking x resource on the net.  You needed that cool map or whatever else material!

BTW a few months ago I found a full version of Stars! on bittorrent.  That brought back some memories <3

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I used to play "Their finest hour: The Battle of Britain". It was a tactical/combat flight simulator, pretty neat stuff. With the box there was this book containing sth like 5% of game manual and 95% of data on different planes, weapons, air physics and things like that. Still have the book around somewhere...

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Alfonse, reply 7

So, I'm spending the same amount of money on a purchase (in the £30 - £40 price range) yet as the years have gone by I'm getting less for my actual money.
Of course. Because your money is worth less now. It's called "inflation". You can have it one of two ways: you pay the same for less than you used to, or you pay more for the same.

£40 isn't what it used to be.

Tell me about it, inflation that is.  Having said that... I would probably prefer to pay more.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand development costs, improvements to GFx engines, physics and pretty much all the stuff that is taken for granted these days.  Although I'm also the first to argue that none of that actually brings anything to the playability stakes.  A good game is a good game regardless of its bling level.  I just.. well... it irks me to see something labeled "special edition" when to my mind it's not, it's "normal edition" and the other one on the shelves is "poverty spec".  Perhaps us old gamers were rather spoiled in the past.

Plus, some of those manuals were quite educational in their own way (and made good reading in the littlest room), perhaps that's just me I couldn't say for certain.

Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

More than anything else mentioned, really, I miss real manuals in PC games. Most console games are simple enough creatures that it isn't a big deal not to have a manual, but PC strategy games are frequently complex enough to require their own textbook. That they no longer include one is sad indeed.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

for the record, I'd mug one of the companions.  The time lord might pull his screwdriver on me or do something crazy like shoot me with a shrink ray or something, but the companions are usually wimps who get themselves stuck in dumb situations (perfect for muging)

Now, I don't mind that the Disc is the same, but if you fork over that high price game, at least give a full color manual for me to read with my AAA game (and smell of a 'new video game manual'  It almost makes me high, I swear! XD )

 I understand if the full manual for super complex games is on the disc, but at least give me a color 4 pieces of paper explaining the basic controls and how to install with a couple of *color* pictures. 

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

You guys could just, you know, buy a book :P

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Its just inflation. £30 is a lot less money nowadays than it was 10 years ago. So you get a lot less for £30 than you would in the past.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting aeortar, reply 8
If I buy a game, it's for the game rather than the 'frills' like a fancier box, a nice manual, a poster, etc.

If I want that, then I'd look for a special/limited edition version or something.

If I forego all of that however, I can get the game for significantly less, meaning much more enjoyment for the money I've spent. You're comparing a game now with a game before, but several big differences: Firstly, costs+quality - your average 'AAA' title now will cost more to make than the average AAA title 5 or 10 years ago. Similarly, the quality is likely to be far better (graphics will be better, sound will on average be better, and because the engine capabilities will have increased, and be able to make better use of the improved graphics, on average gameplay will be better). So I guess you could then look at it and think 'well, a top game now with all the manual+poster stuff might cost £40, while back then it cost £30, but it's still good value for that, and I can pick it up for £30 still if I'm prepared to just get the game and not much else'.

Better graphics and sound today? That's called general development, and has nothing in itself to do with the cost of the games. Games 10 years ago also had brand new (for the time) game engines, which was just as hard to develop as a game engine today, given the technology and software that they had back then.

Oh, and I must say that a proper manual should be included in the basic version of every game (I remember C&C Tiberian Sun, which had a ~10kg box and a 400 page manual), reading a PDF (especially while in the game...) is damn inferior compared to a real paper manual, with art and well-written (well, it wasn't always, but hey, PDF manuals aren't either ^^) text. Ah, the Sam & Max: Hit the road manual (and copy protection in it) was just awesome ^^

For the record; Homeworld: Cataclysm is an awesome game :) Along with HW1 and to some degree the sequel.

Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Games 10 years ago also had brand new (for the time) game engines, which was just as hard to develop as a game engine today, given the technology and software that they had back then.

No, they were not.

Your basic premise is that the primary cost of videogames is software. It isn't; it's art and game design. Art requires artists. More complex art requires more artists.

In the old days, you could bash out a first-pass model with 1,000 polygons in a day. First-pass textures might take a few hours. Final model and textures, after various iterations, might in total take a week from both modeller and artist. So 2 man-weeks overall.

Nowadays, models have hundreds of thousands of polygons. Modelling takes longer; they might spend an entire day on just the face. Before, when each model had only one texture, now models have multiple textures. And they've added shaders to the mix, so the textures have to be specially designed and tested with the shaders to see how they work. A modern game's model might take several man-months of artist and graphics programmer work.

Also, as engines become more demanding, the code for them becomes more and more complicated. Physics, for example, is very difficult code to write well. Better AI requires more specialized code and pathfinding logic. And so on.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

I'm torn.

I miss the old 'manual' and cloth map days.

But I wouldn't want to trade that for better UI's .. built in-game tutorials and help tips. You really don't need manuals anymore .. a tutorial level or just some help tips when you start out in an RPG probably give you more ideas on how to play the game then a manual ever did.

I miss the "flavor" though that a cloth map, some items (anyone remember the glow-in-the-dark stone that came with Wishbringer?) and a manual with a back story.

I also think it's not worth printing manuals since things can change so quickly and easily with patches. Old games like Ultima V were never patched so a manual never got outdated when it comes to spell descriptions and such. But if that game came out nowadays, a manual really wouldn't be needed becasue all the spell descriptions would be available on mouse-over.

I like reading real books over PDF manuals .. but I can't imagine games like Sins and WoW having real "substantial" manuals

So while manuals and extra goodies gave us great value back in the day . .I'd rather have the built-in stuff we get now (that probably take even more development time then creating an old manual did).

Really .. the future of computer gaming is in digitial downloads like Impulse or Steam ... why even bother with boxes and jewel cases?

The only thing I would ask is that game developers have better online interactive manuals .. it is nice to look at stats of things like ships OUTSIDE of a game to develop strategies rather during a game where time is sometimes of the essence.

 

Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Most people are focusing on the now versus then of the OP and are missing the one that annoys me.

The budget versus new game.  In the "good old days" there was a clear difference between the two.  You accepted the lack of manuals, posters, maps etc. because you were only paying £5 and not £30.  Now there is essentially no difference apart from a different logo on the front - huh?

I switched years ago to not going for the latest, greatest games and waiting until they dropped in price.  I wasn't usually that bothered about the bumf in the box.

Of course now it doesn't matter because I will rarely buy a boxed game, prefering online download purchases or games on demand services.

Manuals are only needed for certain genres, for the others if it needs a manual at all then its probably a sign of a bad game anyway.

But, then again, sometimes the packaging can shine - I got one of the early limited edition copies of Gal Civ II with the metal case. That is a really, really nice bit of packaging.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Fenhiro, reply 6
Lol, does anyone remember Empire Earth's Manuel? that was a mix between a novel and a paper weight. i had text books smaller then that thing.

You should check out the 300+ page manual from Dominions_3 (Fantasy TBS)!  This games graphics are from the early 90s, but it's a game with lots of depth and strategic options.

 

 

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Alfonse, reply 17

Games 10 years ago also had brand new (for the time) game engines, which was just as hard to develop as a game engine today, given the technology and software that they had back then.
No, they were not.

Your basic premise is that the primary cost of videogames is software. It isn't; it's art and game design. Art requires artists. More complex art requires more artists.

In the old days, you could bash out a first-pass model with 1,000 polygons in a day. First-pass textures might take a few hours. Final model and textures, after various iterations, might in total take a week from both modeller and artist. So 2 man-weeks overall.

Nowadays, models have hundreds of thousands of polygons. Modelling takes longer; they might spend an entire day on just the face. Before, when each model had only one texture, now models have multiple textures. And they've added shaders to the mix, so the textures have to be specially designed and tested with the shaders to see how they work. A modern game's model might take several man-months of artist and graphics programmer work.

Also, as engines become more demanding, the code for them becomes more and more complicated. Physics, for example, is very difficult code to write well. Better AI requires more specialized code and pathfinding logic. And so on.

You obviously don't see that the tools to make games have become nearly equally developed? Gee, it's not like you sit and program polygon for polygon. (Back then there were pixels as well btw, not just polygons.)
The workload is basically the same, although as the gaming culture has expanded, more and more ambitious, larger, more costly projects have appeared. But basically, it's not more work required now per what you get for it.

You should check out how some of the tools used by the gaming industry have developed over the years. Try a 5 year old version of a 3D model creator software (á la Maya/3DS Max) and then use a similar software of today, and it'll be loooads easier.

Oh, and I agree with reply #19, there are examples that really shine. (Fallout 3 collectors edition, yummy! ^^)
Sorry for going off-topic :)

Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top

Is it more that consumers don't want it?  I'd rather shove my cd's on a shelf where they all fit rather than an old banana box with cloth maps, minis and asorted stuffs hanging out the top.

 

Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Three words; Features_Replayability_Cost.

Sure, we could always have supplemental stuff for our same bucks in any shape or form... but,

1) if THE game we just bought has *more* features than every others tightly placed beside IT on the same store shelf

2) if THE game we now hold in our hands ready to go to the cashier has clearly written mentions on the box that we ALSO have editors, customization powers, moddable principles, etc

3) if THE game we're grabbing cash outa the wallet already having taken our tough decision is between 10 to 25% less than the next similarily valued (both in features & replayability factors) while we're on our ways to pay IT.

 

...then, what can stop any of us from enjoying it for what it is -- cuz, we clearly know what we're getting ourselves into?

I purchased X-Com:UFO Defense from the same set of 'practical reasons' as above. 15 years alter, it's still on Vista, runs smoothly in a Dos-Box -- because -- it's worth it. I can mod it, i can consult flawless reference guides & books about it, i can defy anyone into finding a more feature filled title (made ever since, btw), i can replay it all over again and be immersed indefinitely into its Tactical gameplay as much as i did when i first installed it from 3 floppies, etc.

Yep, it's Isometric, low res, oldy, Sci-Fi... but seriously, kick invading Alien butts from Earth, manage everything from production, financing, research, tanks, squads armed & gaining skills, intercept, shoot down UFOs, save civilians -- the list is long.

(PS; i could also add such titles as TotalAnnihilation, AoE and GC2 to that very short list of invaluable programming wonders... but none whatsoever compares to X-Com -- although, i'll admit to be biased towards specific strategy stuff while i simply hate FPS, RP, simulations ala-Sims, and other concepts)

IMHO.

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

I at least want my games to come with manuals. Correct me if I'm wrong (and please tell me where it is), when you order something on Steam, you won't get a manual. No paperback, no file. While this isn't much of a problem on self explanatory games like Left4Dead, when it comes to the Total War games I recently got from them (Empire and Rome Gold which came with it free) manuals are essential. I am half way through a Rome campaign, and I still think there are quite a few bits of information I am missing. Empire is even more complex, and if not for the somewhat more simple Rome letting me learn the basics, I don't know where I would start when playing Empire.