Well, if 1 out of 100 serial killers would target *only* evil people who really deserve to die, does that mean serial killers are  to been seen as "adding value"? Where's the BS?

Anyone who thinks that priracy drives up sales are really kidding themselves. It wasn't long ago that stores like EB had the games in the boxes on the shelf. They would let you return a game for any reason including PC games for a full refund. I did exactly that with MMO3 which a month later they change that policy. The reason they had to change was people were badly abusing their return policy.

Today store either have to take the games out of the box or put the games behind lock doors because gamers are so dishonest. (Thus even stores had to go out of their way to stop people stealing games.) If gamers think nothing of stealing from the stores then they will have no problem pirating game online without ever paying for them.

Err while many people equate piracy to stealing, you're actually pointing out straight up theft from stores here.  Piracy in general equates to somone making an illegal copy of a game.  Someone stealing something off the shelf isn't quite in the same category imo.  I don't approve of it any more than the other kind of thievery, but you're talking about shoplifting and piracy.  Removing actual games from the shelf is shoplifting, changing the return policy so you couldn't buy a game, make a copy, then return the original is piracy.

also I know for awile install programs on alot of games had a serch program the looked for known software copying and hack programs on them, if found it would pervent the install.  I know that there are ways aound such security, but i think it should be looked at more to help stop pirated software from cerculating.

"Piracey" doesn't hurt Business one bit again, Your either a Buyer or a Seller, again if your including non-buyers into your selling, then your just Inflating your own Figures and at the end of the day and when you try and add said figures up and they don't match, well it's easier to blame "piraters" then it is to own up to your own stupidity/math skills, but hey lets make things worse on our next game will add some more restrictive DRM to try and stop those "piraters" who just now increased because you slapped your loyal customers in the face by adding increasing cost by adding something so stupid. And also removing some nice things like, Imaging, not needing the cd or using an image instead of a cd and or some intrusive online auth system.

lets face it everyone knows running a game from a cd/DVD is just archaic, it slows load time down it's not needed it's just a hassel. and considering Rom Drive still run off the IDE bus well yea it cause system hangs and can kill a system in regards to ressponsiveness, It's been document by so many gameing and tech sites in regards to media Copy protection.

Now the nice thing was you could make an image of a game and not have to jack up your CD/DVD because excessive use of such media leads to your Drive eventualy Burning Lines into the Media, Also scratching. Now i have a 1TB drive dedicated to program Images. i image my game and Bam no disc required that way my disk stays nice and safe and will last longer. and when i do need it it will work when needed.

However companies are making it so bad that imaging is getting really hard, and now we are having to resort to no-cd.exe .

back in the day i bought roughly 6 Broodwar CD's because that how much i played at the time. I even have multiple Copies of all the Battlefield Series due to shit like this.

Ever leave a CD out, and wife/GF comes along and just treats it like meh, then your like OMFG WTF Happend to my disc it's trashed, "i dunno i just move it around" like nooooooooo. Howver game companies treat me like a theif for trying to make an image so shit like that doens't happen.

I wnat to play my games that i paid for, I wnat to have a copy of a cd/dvd, i wnat a manuel, I wnat to be able to take my computer/laptop with me somewhere anywhere and not have to worry about bringing shits tones of crap just so i can play whatever game i want. and or needed to make sure if i do go somewhere i have net access. or make sure the game is setup to play in offline mode.

Now my "rants" are a generliazed hatred for all companies that have these outragous business practice's. And as a Business Owner it's mind retarding at how this crap even continues to go on.

Bottom Line if a game has Multiplayer and thats what it focus is on, then why bother putting DRM on the disc itself???? you don't need it and not to mention when your game Requires a logon account to play the MP aspect of a game with a Unique CD-Key attached to it??? Drop the DRM and save money and cost's. Let the MP account handle who's legit and not because thats what your primary focus is on anyways. Only the paid customers are gonna get access to why y7ou made the game, and thats the real sell, MP and replayability. SP is meh(don't get me wrong i like SP but mp is where it's at) and can only take you so far.

 If stealing is worse which cause the stores to react then some much more the pubishers has to react to piracy when they are at a higher risk than even the stores.  It's crazy to think that piracy which is a lot easier for people to justify than stealing in good for the gaming business.

I see several reasons to resort to pirated games.

1.   Normally the german sync. is so bad it hurts my ears. So if possible i choose the english installation. But some don't have one. Many Software developers patronize the gamer and only offer the language of the OS. Mostly there is no way to tell in advance if it will be possible to choose or not. The only possibility to get an english version is to download an english image(what is illegal even if you own the german cd).

2. Some games don't run as intended. Someone mentioned Homeworld in this thread. I bought the "white label edition" as i lost my DVD a couple of years ago. I was able to install the game, but could not start it. I complained and got another CD which did not word as well. Possible solution: No-cd-exe! But thats illegal in germany as well.

3. Its more comftable to use pirate ware. Im not at home quite often and don't want to carry a whole bunch of CDs with me if i am out of germany for a couple of months.

Of course none of these topics are applicable to Sins, but i must admit that i dont like Impulse. It looks like crap on my machine because my IE7 is messed up even though i never used it. And i dont have the time nor the will to deal with this problem, but as long i can start the games without flash player it's ok.

Wasn't trying to be an alarmist, and the internet is not truly anonymous.

I was just trying to point out that, yes you can police the entire internet. It can be done.

NeoDampiel, piracy does hurt the industry. If it didn't then why are publishers trying to protect thier investment with DRM? Greed? Its not that simple, they know it hurts customer confidence in the product and brand.

Games come with an upwards of $100,000,000 price tag to bring it from an idea to finished product. And that does not incude costs incured for failed attempts at ideas or anything that winds up on the cutting room floor.  

If your selling a game at $49.99-$59.99 range, you have to sell 1-2 million copies just to cover your production cost.

You also have to take into account money spent on advertising which is a gamble since there is a chance it will earn you nothing for your investment. 

You also may have to pay licensing fees, royalties and costs of outside services rendered. 

After all that your going to want some capital for investment in new and upcomming projects.

How much is going into someone's pocket? I may never know, but its not as much as you think it is.

$150 million in sales does not = $150 million in profit.

I also don't see your logic behind your argument. You said, buyer, seller and non-buyer. You should have said vendor, customer and non-paying customer.

Actually thats not as clear cut as you might think it is.  There's actually a lot of market research going on right now about how much piracy, and not just in games, all digital media like music and online books, affects the actual market share.  In a lot of cases it's being found that piracy increases exposure, and exposure means that people who wouldn't have bought the game otherwise get a pirated copy, try it, like it, and then go out and buy their own copy.  Much the same way that when you lend a book to a friend he might read it, like it, buy his own copy and then go look for other books by the same author.  I invite anyone who is interested to go check out the Baen books website and look at their free library, and the prime palaver posts by Eric Flint on the subject, it's by no means conclusive, but it gives a lot of insight.

 You can also check out what happen with PSP vs DS where PSP was a lot easier to pirate games than DS yet when it comes to games vs the number of units DS total killed PSP sales. More and more games went to DS because it was tougher to pirate. 

 I had someone over my house who played games and decided they liked them so much they go out and buy them..... no really.... they decided to break into my house and steal my PS3 and all my games. (even though i can't prove it I know who broke into my house.) 

 While I'm sure they are the few who may go out and buy a game after they had a pirate copy yet I seriously doubt the majority would. (this is the same as I returned MMO3 to EB I completely removed it for my PC but I doubt many would do the same. Thus EB had to stop the return policy as they loses profits) More likey they would go and  buy a another  game  that they can't pirate ( like console games) thus have two games for the price of one. For what I've read this is what happening with the PSP vs DS.

Could you name a couple please?

I would like to know why someone would buy something they allready have.

Hard copies of something is diffrent. Software is almost intangible.

The argument saying that non-buyers inflate the sales isn't a good one. Its only an attempt to validate the behavior of piracy.

If I aquired a copy of something that I didn't want, then why did I even get it? If I wanted it I should have purchased it.

If I didn't have the money to spend, well thats kinda to bad for me then.

Irony:  I was playing a pirated version of Sins for a while (1.02 was the patch when I got it), and just bought the legitimate version via Impulse.  Funny you should mention this right now.

Me?

Because it's morally correct?

Additionally:

By buying Sins, I rewarded the good folks over at Stardock for making a good game.  By buying Sins I helped pay for them to make more patches to improve content.  By buying Sins I helped them make more good games in the future.  By buying Sins I didn't give anyone a reason to slap more DRMs on things.

By buying Sins, online play is a lot less awkward/worriesome.  By buying Sins, updating is much more easy.  By buying Sins, I don't have to run Daemontools in the background?  By buying Sins I can download it to whatever computer I have on hand to run it, rather than a hilariously long torrent or the trouble of burning/loading from CD and then having to find an appropriate mix of patches to go from 1.00 to 1.15 (1.16 now, I guess?).

If I didn't want it, why would I pirate it, either?  My case has a number of extenuating circumstances (as noted in a previous post on this thread), but in the end, it all hinges on me wanting it anyway.

And if I didn't have the money to spend?  Why should that be to bad for me?  In that case specifically, there is little to no loss for the gaming industry, and gain for the pirater.  (Compared to the cases where they could have spent money, but wound up pirating it instead.)

Quite possibly.  I've been hunting for people to get Sins around here, and their knowledge of the game seems to consist of: "Yeah, I heard a lot of good buzz about that game - wasn't that a few years back, though?"

I'm not really part of the true gamer crowd, as is denoted by my only computer: a 4-year-old laptop.  I guess all the cool kids stay on the cutting edge, huh?

That doesn't explain all the people playing Starcraft here, though.

Not making a judgment call here, but by pirating it in the first place, you've already given them a reason to slap more DRMs on things. From what I've seen, publishers tend to look at the number of DLs on torrent sites to see how bad piracy actually is. By DLing the game, you already added to that number.

I am calling complete and utter bollox on this.  Video game stores (EB <dead>, Game, et al), Supermarkets which have sold video games (Tesco, ASDA, Sainsburys, etc) AND general entertainment department stores (Virgin, HMV, etc) have NOT accepted games for a full refund since the days of floppy disks.   They will exchange like for like (aka same game, same format) until the cows come home, but they will NOT refund.  It is corporate policy to do so.

You were exceptionally lucky to have been able to return MOO3 for a refund. I am assuming you don't live in the UK.

Keeping the disks seperate from the packaging has, again, been done since the days of floppy disks it's nothing new.  Because A) portable bulk earasers do exist (and people are evil shits...) Shoplifting.   Please note, shoplifters will make off with pretty much anything of value, be if booze, smokes, clothes and well you get the drift.    Keeping the merchendise in a locked drawer is also cheaper, you don't have to employ security people.

And if Sins2 has invasive DRM in it you will find me busy applying de-DRMing, none official patches to the games executable(s).  DRM isn't about curbing or even stopping piracy, I've yet to see a game's protection method stop piracy. 

DRM is about making sure the "law abiding" people only use your offering in the proscribed manner.

If true, Publishers are stupid... publicer need to understand why people pirate a game...

Have already explain it in these forum but my first sins version was a pirated one... a few month after, the game have hit the European shop and i have buy it...

Same thing for Entrenchment... was not able to buy it so i have first pirate it... now, i have buy it... in exchange of a French boxed version of Sins, someone have setup a paypal account for me and put some money on it... have now a legit Entrenchment version...

I have use pirated version in both case because i have wish the game... first time, i have wait the boxed version before buy it... for the expension, i was not wishing wait years for a boxed version...

Sure that a lot of people will not make the effort for find a method for buy Entrenchment... these peoples will continue use the pirated version and not buy it later when it will be in shop... Stardock make very good product, Stardock have a good support, Stardock take care of his customer... but Stardock suck when related to distribution of their product, specialy here in Europa...

OFF TOPIC : About European distributor... Kalypso have a new box... in the lower right corner, they wrote "N°1 des ventes aux USA" who mean "number one game in USA for sales"... Is there some numbers who proof it... I think that it is a lie... and lie are not good for the Stardock reputation...

Back to topic... a question for Stardock... I wish buy more version of Entrenchment for friend... can i buy them and just give to my friend the serial number that i receive via e-mail or some more complex procedure is needed... Beware that if a more complex procedure is needed, if it become too much complex, some of my friend will end by downloading a pirated version... For a boxed version, it was really simple but with online download, i have not find the right information about how to make it a gift...

Again off-topic... In the same style, being member and moderator of the 7DS forum, i wish organize some "competition"... related to modeling, texturing, coding challenge, etc... where the winner will receive a valid serial number for entrenchment... i wish buy myself the serial and send it via PM to the winner... is it possible ???

I completely agree. As I said, I wasn't making a judgment call. But if anyone looks at what publishers say about piracy, they almost invariably point to the number of seeders and leechers on torrent sites to justify why they 'must' use DRM. Adding to those numbers only gives them more justification in their minds.

No doubt EB return policy attracted gamers like me in the beginning that gave them an edge. But over time their return policy was abused more there was no profit to continue it.

One thing i pointed out several pages ago, but was 'poo pood' by the will o' the forums.  Was the fact the dodgy copies whiz out of pressing plants in China and Russia repleat in their clone of the box far faster than a P2P could dream of moving.   Of course I'm also aware that P2P figures are easier to get and by their visibility gives companies an easy target.  

Whilst I'm not using is as a justification for piracy, if you knew the stores would only swap your copy of MOO3 for another copy of MOO3 regardless of how long it took you to realise the game just wasn't for you (and that applies to online retailers as well) how inclined would you be to 'try before you buy'?  I mean if you knew you couldn't get your money back wouldn't that be temptation enough for some of the people on these forums to look to alternate methods of making sure they weren't, in effect, throwing their money away...

Your either a Buyer or a seller when it comes to goods being sold, A Vendor is a term used for someone you may frequenly buy from or sell too. End result is your either buying or selling. Now a non-buyer is someone who isn;'t planning on buying your product to begine with so why try and make up false numbers in regards to this.???

And Most forms of DRM are outragous. Keep it simple keep cost down, keep your buyers happy. If game is mainly played online, then don't bother with CD\DVD protection just have an installer with CD and have them create an onlinje account tied to that Key and be done with it, howver most companies don't understand that that works.

It worked for Most BF(i dislike EA in general becaus ethey thend to not care about their buyers but hey they published some good games and have destroyed alot games), it worked for SC, it work for lots of games, and thats the mainstay for most MMO's. yet why doens't everyone else realize such a simple thing(now one of the stupidIST things is say Company of heroes requiering you to be logged in to play SP campaigns WTF!! now prior to the release of OF it wasn't like that but noooo they went gaydumb and did something retarded, I didn't bother playing the campaign anymore, Cause most of teh time i play campaigns when my friends arn't online or my connection is down(maintenance) or i'm out of town and don't have net access.

the cost to make game price wise is overflatted.

1Million to make a game????? WTF!!!!!! yea when yoru spending money and new cars and upgrading computers and allowing vending machiens and toys around the office.

 now I'm a a Resseller and a Computer builder for COmpanies that work with CAD, Use High end Back Raided Servers and installing Networks for 2-100 Computers and blah blah blah blah blah, i know the cost shouldn't be near what they are probbaly spending(unless your a tard and are buying name Brand Dell and or god forbid your not buying Alienware{might as well slit your wrist now} your computing systems should be within reasonable means).

Now unless your paying your employes 75-100k(not including what owners and Investors want in return) per year yea your gonna run out of money fast. Not to mention it's Labor. Labor people!!!! WTF are you paying yoru employes???

Now heres my bitch about a game i JUST BOUGHT(Codename: Coldwar Panzer). I demo'd it thought it was okay, woulda like to try and Pirated it to see whats really going on becasue reviews where mixxed and if not bad. No Pirate. So i decided okay i'll buy it. Boy was that a Mistake the game played Better in the SP Demo and MP demo/beta then it actually did in retail. They almost completly took out the Camera system. I'm not stuck with a camera that can barely pull back and adjust, the Graphics where toned down to pixelation. And several of the units where pulled. Now WTF i just spent $39.00 on some POS that i was mislead on with the demo, I guess i should listen to reviews(however thats not always fair to the dev's and i'm not always in agreement with the Reviews). Now i can't take this game back. I can't get a refund. SO i just now gave my money to a worthless game.

How much do you think it cost to buy CDs\DVDs???(and i'm reffering to the Industry type not the consumer ones, you could use both you just need some damn Q&A afterwards) how much do you think it cost to print on them??? now a small ass box(cardboard paper PEOPLE) with almost nothing it it???

THere are more articles about how DRM is hurting games then anything else I've given links b4 and if your that hell bent on not beliveing facts because your a corperate suck-up and enjoy the doggy postion, use your brain and do us all a favor and check that link out http://lmgtfy.com/  and look up what we have been saying. i find that site usefull who are really lazzy looking and always demanding facts from others.

Whilat I agree with most of what you're saying i think £1mil is a dramatic under estimation of how much a game costs to make.  Flick through jobserve or dice or whereever you want for programmers (C, .net, DX, 3D), writers, artists (both 3D, conceptual).  Factor in hardware costs, beefy compile machines and renders, paying licenses for any technology your using that isn't yours, marketting budgets, costs of attending meetings with publishers and shipping off demo content to them.

Ohh and then you'd need support for those beefy machines, networking equipment, internet access and such.  Voice actors, muscians, QA, they'll all want to be paid.  Don't forget the managers, accountants and all the other 'not-a-dev' people.  I'd realistically add a 0 on to your figure, possibly swap the 1 for a 3 for anything approaching a AAA title for a large publisher.

That's from my experience of large (none game related) projects.  If you want to keep costs down you can cut the number of staff, this is true.  But you'll be slower to release and that can have dramatic effects on ROI projections.

"1Million to make a game????? WTF!!!!!! yea when yoru spending money and new cars and upgrading computers and allowing vending machiens and toys around the office."

Good luck doing any of those things when you want to employee talented workers