Thoughts about the Fallen

Well, they have not stated directly that the fallen are all evil, just that they have a simple attitude and are engineered to be more controlable for evil purposes.  Because they were created to be simple minded, they are quick to use magic or whatever means needed to do what is needed.  (reminds me of goblins from warhammer fantasy)   We have not actually had it confirmed that the fallen themselves are evil, just that was the intention of their creation.   I suspect that some of the fallen will be less than evil, highly xenophobic (pardon spelling) and quick to use magic and other sacrifices but not evil.

Its like the example 'drow' you had.   Not all drow are evil in the forgotten realm setting, just a vast majority.  And unlike drow, there may not be something that states 'if fallen then evil', so there may even be a whole faction of nicer guys.

actually you spelled "xenophobic" correctly.

And to be honest i too thought that maybe one faction of the Fallen could be more honorable with more virturous intentions. I'm reminded of the quote I read years ago that went ,

"Good, Evil. It matters not for the one who is victorious writes the history books."

Though I would have to disagree about all the Fallen being simpletons. Sure most where probably designed to be only soldiers; smart enough to use a weapon with some skill but stupid enough not ask questions. But then you would need someone with sufficient intelligence to take command of the said troops. So there likely Fallen created for specific tasks like intelligence gathering and warfare.

Evil, i agree, doubtful. At worst, some want to rule the known world or seek vengance for a perceived wrong or both. At best, they're just trying to make a living the way they can.

That is why I like them and of course plan to focus on them.

From the Lore section of this very site:

Of The Fallen

When the powers strove for dominance before the cataclysm, some felt that men were too random and too unpredictable to be of use to them. Some of these powers selected men of cunning, brutality and might. They created an “improved” or “idealized” version of men that came to be known as the Fallen. ...

So lets not think that the Fallen are all simpletons as this is clearly not the case

I did not mean simpleton or simple-minded as dumb.  I was more refering to frogboy's post

To me that stands for they follow the rules of 'keep it simple stupid'.   To me 'savage' also is a synonym for 'barbaric' which to me is also simple.   So while they are smart, they are straight forward and practical; Simple.

Its like the "Reavers" in the show "Firefly".   They aren't stupid, They manage to pilot spaceships very well, enough to almost catch what should be a smaller and more agile ship (using broken spaceships at that).  they just run on basic instincts.   I believe the guy changing into a reaver in the 3nd episode suggested something to that extent.

Man I LOVE Firefly, seriously my favourite tv show of all time!!! ..

I think simpleton is probably the wrong word to use for what you meant as it really only has negative connotations of ignorance and stupidity (quoting Dictionary.com):

sim⋅ple⋅ton

 –noun an ignorant, foolish, or silly person.

That's as maybe though, as what you were trying to express seems perfectly valid. I guess a better word to sum up the Fallen (based on Frogboy's quote) would be utilitarian, or simply pragmatic, maybe even ascetic or, as our friend above will enjoy... spartan.. ahem, given that they seem less concerned with personal comfort and well being and more with getting the job done as efficiently as possible. Man the more I talk about these guys the more I like them! AND they are more prone to use magic, which I would totally be if I lived in a world where magic actually existed

Edit: Gee I hope that didn't come across like I was being a douche about the word by quoting it in massive font, that's just how it copied across from the other site

nah, don't worry about it.  I cought exactly what you intended.   I get in trouble because of that sort of stuff, along with the fact that unless I'm making an effort to type the way I talk, I default to essay style wording which sometimes makes me come accross as being more emotional about something, about which I actually have litte care.

Yeah, to me it means simple minded.   which again to me doesn't mean dumb, but I will drop that since I think we are at an understanding.

I'm curious to learn more about how exactly magic works in this setting.   I mean, sure I'd like to say I'd be more prone to use magic, but I don't know of any consequences.  Perhaps magic seriously causes problems to one's psyche, or maybe it drains the life of the world around it.  That later explination would certainly give more reason to why the world(s) of Elemental are no longer habitable without the Channeler's help.

Actually, if magic innately drained life out of the world it'd be pretty strange/impossible to fix said damage with more of the same. (ie. channelers using magic)

I think the devastated state of the world is more the logical result of lots of super powerful beings lobbing lots of super powerful destructive magic around trying to kill eachother. Collateral damage is so much fun.

Also, I'd like there to be more sophisticated Fallen in addition to the barbarian type (who are fun too). Kind of like the Nietschean (sp?) superman: strong, highly intelligent and without any sense of morality "holding him back". ("practical" tends to mean "immoral" if defined by the baddies) 

I'd very much like to see one of the Fallen factions be all about overcoming their roots as a people made to be weapons and working hard to control their natural violence rather than revel in it. I'm actually hoping that both humans and Fallen each have an 'internal' rivalry in the base factions as well as the larger human-Fallen divide. With six factions each, I think there's plenty of room for ethical and cultural variety for both species.

You're right GW, if there's going to be two "races" and six factions each and their only real difference is in appearance and the like would make the not really worth playing (A thing we know Stardock would never do). Of course they would make the six Fallen factions radically different, examples...

WARNING another set of analogies are coming;

 One could be like X-mens' Wolverine: tough, direct, and insanely intelligent who are just trying to overcome their past in hopes of a brighter future. While their polar opposite could be akin to Sabertooth or Kratos in that they totally imbrace their darker tendencies and just want to watch the world burn. Another could have Magneto's philosophy in that in order for them to survive they would need to remove those who wish them dead. While another could have a Darth Vader complex, doing morally questionable things for the greater good. Of course, you gotta have one like Edmund Dantes in The Count of Monte Cristo for they have been victimized, whether it really happened or not, and have been stewing over it long enough not only to desire to destroy their enemies but everything they hold dear.

 That's all I got.

Oh, sorry about misinterpreting what you meant about the Fallen being simple, Landisaurus. I agree they should simple in the way of being practical not simple like the ogres in the Gummi Bears cartoons. While they would provide a lot of comic relief, I for one would get little peeved if every one of my commands was cheerfully answered with, "Okay, Dukey"

The one thing I want for the Fallen:  Horns.  magnificant horns.

I don't see them as stupid, just arrogant and reactionary.

maybe, maybe not.    You can't make nothing of something.  If using magic simply changed its form, then magic that might has been drained from the world, might be able to be channeled back in.  In theory, if magic is put back in faster than it is taken out again you can heal the world and still benifit from having magic available.    Its like having a cake and eat it too, if we want over-used sayings.

It would be like balancing a check book, you don't want to run out of money, but you don't want to not-spend it either.

Bad analogy, because you're not going to spend your money in order to balance your check book. At least I hope not, or you've got some major financial troubles coming up!

It's not necessarily a bad analogy at all. No, you wouldn't spend money just for the sake of balancing your checkbook, but he has a point in that the point of balancing your checkbook is to manage your spending in a sustainable manner,  not to eliminate spending altogether. Just as in real life, you will set aside some money to invest in areas that may provide future yields and may need to spend regularly in order to maintain what you already have.

IIRD there's a DnD setting called Darksun in which the use of magic drains the life energy of plants and animals, potentially creating an area where plants simply can't grow. This isn't entirely a deterrent to magic as much as it is making magic a trade-off. On the one hand, magic is as powerful in Darksun as in ordinary DnD. On the other hand, excessive use of magic in a given area will not endear you to the local population. There are even organizations dedicated to ensuring that the practice of magic does not destroy the environment. There are also wackos so devoted to increasing their own power that they'll turn a jungle into a desert just to power a single spell if that's what it takes to get the job done. It's definitely a balancing act, and it would be an interesting way to implement and limit magic.

But we've been told that our channelers will have to expend their essence in order to restore life to the world. If using magic or essence drains life, how could you drain life in order to give it? Unless you're draining life from some other region, but that's not quite the impression I get...

Basically, we know that magic will be the mechanism used to restore life to the ruined world of Elemental; but if the mere use of magic drains life from the world then, well, there's a problem...

I love dark sun, for the record.    I played darksun all the time around the same time as master of magic.  In fact, I have a pretty bad Dark Sun PC game that I bought at the exact same time as master of magic.  I bot both at a computer game sale when, I remember picking them both out of the bin thinking that dark sun was going to be the best one with master of magic being the only other one that didn't look bad.   (I couldn't get past the 1st level which was like a combat pit or something.  I think its the whole game.   I have not played it since I was little, maybe I should find it and try to dos-box it)

Well that is a good point.    The stuff channelers use is specifically called 'essence', where the stuff that was in the crystals ("some call magic") has not been called essence in anything I can find yet.  Perhaps they are not the same thing at all, which explain why you have finite essence, but can get more mana from the crystal shards and other generators.