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Sova, Halcyon, Skirantra - Do Capital Carriers suck or what?

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Sova, Halcyon, Skirantra - Do Capital Carriers suck or what?

Light carriers need a nerf, Cap Carriers a buff.

from Sins Forums

In my multiplayer games, I rarely if ever see anyone build a Capital Carrier for the simple fact everyone as in EVERYONE loves spamming light carriers.

In these spammer's mind they think: "Why would I get an expansive capital ship that I need to lv. up to make any use of, when I could get 6 light carriers for the price of 1 Sova?" 

They are right. Simply next to the light carrier these things are too weak. Honestly, since I only have a lot of experience with TEC, the Sova embargo is very unrealistic (you think he just gonna let you sit there?) to use every game effectively and their HP and shields are very weak compared to the Kol. 

This just highlights how easily spammable light carriers have become and they really definately need a nerf. They made the cap ships useless. 

To make these cap ships useful I advocate.

-Let them start with 4 Strike Craft and then upgradable by leveling up to 10 strike wings. 

-Give them a built in Flak turret (3 or 4) and the Flak burst ability. (They will get focused fired on by the light carrier spammers)

-Increase the build time for strike craft for all ships (general balance so SC are not instantly replacable.)

Light Carrier spam have come to ruin this game they need:

-Slight nerf in sheilds and hull points + a range limit of only 3/4 of the gravity well for its flight wings. Right now there is nothing that can prevent Carriers from sitting at the VERY VERY EXTREME edge of the well and jumping out at the first sign of trouble. 

I don't want to nerf the Light Carrier to Oblivion I use them myself, but it is simply way too effective and ruins this game because it is un-counterable (Flak is useless, and SC are instantly replacable) and invulerable if used right. 

Who is with me? 

176,448 views 57 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting S_Holmes, reply 24

Quoting Ryat, reply 23
Quoting S_Holmes, reply 22Just to make a quick correction to some bad math in the OP.  The Sova costs 3000 credits.  The TEC carriers cost 835.  So you can have about 3.5 for the price of a Sova, not six.

That equals 7 sc from carriers(assuming u can build a half cc ) to the six that Sova can carry.

 

Actually, just ignore my last post, since it's irrelevent.  Comparing light carriers to capital carriers is comparing apples to oranges - it can't be done.  You can compare the Sova to the Halcyon or Skiranta (or even to other capital ships), and you can compare the light carriers of each race, but you can't compare capitals to cruisers (well, you can, but nothing useful will come of it).

Yes, they both carry strikecraft, but that's where the discussion ends.  Economically speaking, you are asking people to compare 3-4 unarmed, moderately armoured/shielded cruiser-type ships to a single, armed, heavily armoured/shielded capital ship.  The number of strikecraft you'll get is all you can talk about - 6-8 with the light carriers, 2-3 (starting at lvl1) with the capital ship.  But then how do you reconcile the heavier protection and weaponry of the capital ship?  Is it irrelevent?  It's not, of course, but is the damage that can be produced by the ship's guns and the added hitpoints/armour/shield over the course of the game worth the extra credits that could have been spent on extra strike craft instead?  Damage and hitpoints that increase over time with upgrades and levels?  There's no system for making a viable comparrison, especially when you realize that you can start with one capital ship for free, while the light carriers must be paid for, not just by themselves, but after an initial investment of Military Labs and the research to be able to build them at all.

The same thing occurs if you look at them both strategically.  In terms of grand strategy and fleet tactics, they're both designed to fill different rolls.  The light carriers sole purpose is to cheaply fill a grav-well with swarms of strike craft to do with as you see fit.  A capital ship's role is much more complex.  Being armed and generally well protected, they can lead fleet into battle directly, inflicting damage with both their strike craft and onboard weapon systems.  They also have a complement of abilities (some tactical, some strategic) that can shape how a battle plays out.  Also, light carriers can be taken apart one at a time, whereas a capital ship must be completely destroyed before it's strike craft can be taken out permanently (though you lose a much greater investment in time and money losing one capital ship over 3 or 4 light carriers). Just as with the above example, there's no way to compare these complex variables in any meaningful fashion that players can use to make informed decisions about how to play the game.

What's better - 4 Percherons or a level 1 Sova?  Why?  How about 4 Percherons and a level 10 Sova?

Even that falls apart when you take into account that you're building other types of ships too.  So what's better - A level 1 Sova and ten Cobalts, or seven Percherons?  Again, why?  How about that Sova and 5 flak frigates against those same seven Percherons?  Or four Percherons and ten Javelins against a level 3 Sova and seven Hoshinkos?

Now what you can do is talk about what you prefer to build and play, because personal play style is a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion that can provide useful information for players, letting them consider new tactics and strategies that may not have occured to them.  That's a meta-game, and that's healthy.  But you can't start saying that one strategy or ship or race is definatively better than one or the other without a lot of proof to back you up - proof which rarely (if ever) presents itself in these types of threads.  I may not post a lot on these forums, but I read them everyday, and the huge amount of disagreement over just what constitutes the 'best' strategy to run, or the 'best' ships to build, or the 'best' race to play, demonstrates to me that there isn't a 'best' anything.

So you're advocating we cahnge nothing and let the Sova and the Vasari one stay limited in use and not very competitive? 

Honestly, I'd prefer to see the capital carriers see more prominance than the light carriers that are spammed like hell.

Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top

Well, capitals suck in general, sadly.  They are too expensive, don't have capital-level firepower, and mitigation won't protect your massive investment from getting blown to bits in the first wave.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting CreditSuisse, reply 1
So you're advocating we cahnge nothing and let the Sova and the Vasari one stay limited in use and not very competitive?

Not at all.  All I'm saying is that you cannot advocate that change is necessary without proof.  Just because some of the community doesn't believe that the capital carriers (or capital ships in general) are worthwhile investments doesn't mean that they are not a valuable part of the game as they are.  Until more copies of game recordings are posted, and more data from games (of all types, single and multiplayer) are made available, we have nothing but conjecture and theory.

 

Sins is still a very young game, and in the short time it's been available, there have been numerous patches in addtion to the current new mini-expansion.  The game is in a continual state of flux and it needs a chance to settle down.

Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top

Each cap has their own unique roll.  Adjust them so they all have high dps makes the game boring.  If you dont know how to use carrier caps then you really need to learn the abilities of each one. 

Reply #55 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting jeremyshaw, reply 21
...

Pulling off of this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer

There are 48 fighters

12 bombers

12 boarding craft.

later on, 12 or more fighters would be replaced by interceptors.

My life... all I believe in... is over.

Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top

On the Halcyon with Telekenetic Push...

I tried it tonight.  Played Avent against some dude's TEC.  Anyway, I scouted him for a while and built up the best fleet I could to take him.  He had his grav well ringed with hangers, plus a starbase with hangers, plus a ton of light carriers and lrms.  I have learned too many times that I cannot put lf inside a grav well to take out carriers if there are tons of lrms present, so my only other alternative was a ton of carriers myself (with some flak thrown in), and a ton of heavy cruisers. 

But here's where it gets interesting.  I decided to try all this talk about the "awesome" capships, especially in the role of obtaining air superiority.  So I purchased not one but two Halcyons, with the main ability being telekentic push.  I actually bought both caps up to level 3, and both caps accompanied my level 6 mothership into his grav well.

Anyway, telekentic push (from two level 3 carriers, both of which leveled to 4 while in his grav well) didn't do jack shit.  Nada.  Naught.  Nil.  None.  Zero.  Zilch.  Zippo.  Zip.  Oh, I saw it push his strikecraft away, but they just came right back after the ability was finished, and they didn't die.  I was never able to get air superioity in his well, never.  Furthermore, all my sucky caps died - yup, all three.  What did I do?  Like a fool, I went and built them again, just to make damn well sure that I tested what all these pros keep flapping their gums about - "use a Kortul with jam weapons, use a Kol with flak burst, use a Halcyon with telekenetic push, blah blah blah blah blah!"  So built them again, purchased to level 3, sent them in again, same result.

Look, the last thing I want is for some uber-overpowered capship to come into the midst of my 100 carriers, hit one stupid ability, and have all 200 strikecraft of mine bite the dust while he laughs.  That would totally suck.  But what's with all this gumflapping about the anti-strikecraft abilities of these capships?  I tell you this, that will be the last Halcyon with telekenetic push I ever build.

The game ended up minidumping, but if the replay works I would be happy to provide screenshots.  Quite amusing, actually, LOL.

Reply #57 from Stardock Forums Top

push wounnt kill SC just damage them

the best stategy for advent is have 15-20 defense vessals with the halycons in a tight fleet and have energy cooldown while leaving push on autocast

also use a lot of illummys because they can atk muiltiple targets and use shadow clone jutsu

oh and you prolly want moar than 3 caps if they have planet defenses AND a starbase AND a defending fleet unless you had a huge ass fleet with sufficiant supporting ships (ie guardians and subjegators) then it was a sure fire loss from the start