Airship_Artillery

A thought to balance carriers

A thought to balance carriers

(for vanilla Sins)

If I recall, I've been hearing that carriers are slightly overpowered if spammed.  If this statement is true, then I was thinking that instead of nerfing the carriers in some way, why not buff the flaks?

However, the buff won't be a straight up buff.  That would make strike craft useless in the early stages, when it isn't TOO much of a problem.  Instead, I think a couple of flak only researches could go a long way for each side.  Something to increase firepower and range.  Perhaps it would be best to have the first research with 2 or 3 military labs, then as the game goes on, subsequent researches enable as more labs are built.

I don't know if they are THAT much of a problem, but if the strike craft are, then this might be an effective solution.

Just my thoughts, Airship_Artillery.

29,181 views 35 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting -Ue_Carbon, reply 23
So after reading this topic and many others...There are 2 schools of thought here.

A- Buff Flak

B- Nerf Carriers

 

Both have some great ideas and vaild points. I think we can all agree that the ability of the carrier field SC and keep those squard up and running without strong a strong counter. Maybe the best way to handle this is to not only buff flax and nerf carrier but do both.

If we give Flax a increased damage vs Fighters to 120% and Bombers to 90%. That would allow better responce from Flax to handle both bomber and fighters. Giving them the ability to make dents in squads without being over powered against anything else. Now with this increase we changed how carriers field their SC. While the SC are in combat their squads can not be replace. To replace your SC lost during combat would required the Carriers to recall their squads if any are left to dock and remained docked till squads are at full strength and/or till they are launched.

If both these are implimented the it allows for players to still use both Flax and Carrier without destroying any tactics all ready in play. It also curves the current Carrier spam by allowing a player, who uses flax and such correctly, a break from the SC tide. Requiring and allowing both sides to regroup and plan their next move.

These 2 simple things are all that is needed.

+ 1 I give Karma k1  

Buffing Flak doesn't solve the problem of instantly replacable strike craft, that would be a carrier nerf. 

Reply #27 Top

Yes it does.  You don't know how the old flak worked to a point no one used carriers.  You couldn't replenish strikecraft fast enough, they would die after 1 pass. And I don't mean a craft, I mean whole squadrons.

Reply #28 Top

wow...I really didn't think this topic would get so popular.  I guess no one likes the idea of giving flaks researches.  I do like the ideas that are presented at the moment though...keep 'em coming!

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Astax, reply 2
Yes it does.  You don't know how the old flak worked to a point no one used carriers.  You couldn't replenish strikecraft fast enough, they would die after 1 pass. And I don't mean a craft, I mean whole squadrons.

No one is arguing for that massive of a Flak buff to render strike Craft useless. SC should still rape and hard counter Light Frigate spam. Just not rape... everything :S  

And just buffing flak is not a very elegant solution. It'll be much better to slightly buff Flak (10%) then nerf Light Carriers to force them to use antimatter/resources to replace Strike Craft while at the same time buffing Capital Ship Carriers (Sova, etc) by giving them more SC to start with and elite SC with 20% more hp/attack as the Cap. levels up. 

Remember we don't want to nerf strike craft, we want to nerf the LIGHT CARRIER (which is spammed like hell) and make Strike Craft counterable, we're not reducing Strike Craft hp/attack or anything. The Light Carrier currently has more hp/sheilds than a Kiodiak melee close up heavy cruiser. 

Reply #30 Top

Quoting CreditSuisse, reply 4
Remember we don't want to nerf strike craft, we want to nerf the LIGHT CARRIER (which is spammed like hell) and make Strike Craft counterable, we're not reducing Strike Craft hp/attack or anything. The Light Carrier currently has more hp/sheilds than a Kiodiak melee close up heavy cruiser. 

 

Three caveats to that:

1> While the Light Carrier might have more listed HP/shields than a Kodiak, it's in a different armor category.  Carriers are "Heavy" armor, Kodiaks are "Very Heavy".  This gives them different effectivenesses against various attack types, irrespective of the listed amounts.  For instance, Bombers deal twice as much damage to VH armor as to Heavy (100% vs 50%), but on the other hand, the Basic Assault class of ship (the weenie light frigates you start with) do 150% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  Likewise, the specialty cruiser ships (repair ships, disabling ships, etc.) and siege vessels do 125% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  The two armor types are completely identical against everything other than those I mentioned above.

So, while the carriers might be listed as having more raw shields and HP than a kodiak, their survivability is much lower when faced with many types of frigates and cruisers, and a carrier can't exactly outrun a light frigate.

2> It's not just the spamming of carriers that's the problem; it's that, like torpedo cruisers, they're effectively a standoff weapon that can wipe out all of a well's static defenses, and the only way to stop them is to keep a fleet on hand to chase after them, and even that's not a great solution as they can warp out when you get close.  This wasn't so bad in vanilla sins, where your defenses depended on mobile fleets, but with the greater emphasis on static defenses in Entrenchment, it's a bigger deal now.  Currently, it's impossible to create a bomber-proof static defense that would force an opponent to bring his fleet into range of your guns.  You can come close by loading up your SB with hangars, but even that's a losing battle; 14-20 squadrons sounds like a lot, but if an incoming fleet has twenty carriers, you'll be outgunned.

3> The other problem is that currently, the only effective counters to massed strikecraft are either to use your own masses of fighters (which only exacerbates the problem), or to use large numbers of dedicated anti-fighter ships and abilities, which are a huge resource sink if your opponent doesn't use strikecraft.

 

So here's what I'd like to see:

1> A buffing of the flak vessels, as mentioned before, in a way that would make them more effective against strike craft without increasing their effectiveness against other ships.  Not only would this make fleets a bit safer from strikecraft, but it'd encourage people to keep "reaction" forces of a handful of flaks that could get to threatened systems quickly.  If these reaction forces can reinforce a starbase to the point where it can't be easily hurt by strikecraft, then an invader will need an actual fleet for the job.  (Note I said EASILY hurt; if a starbase has twelve points of armor and a large hull regeneration, and maybe a deflector shield or something, it doesn't take much protection to reach the point where it's not losing HP over time.)

2> A buffing of starbase anti-SC ability.  The idea I had last night was this:

Each starbase has three weapons: one it starts with, and two you buy upgrades for.  All three have comparable damage ratings.  Take the Vasari as the example here; they start with some basic pulse guns, then add disintegration rays (good against structures, okay against ships), and finally long-range phase missile batteries.

Convert the middle weapon into something that can be used against strikecraft.  The big purple disintegration rays the Vasari have would be great for this; they LOOK like something that'd be an AoE attack.  After all, if you're being attacked by killer bees, an assault rifle wouldn't help much, but a flamethrower would.  So, make that weapon effective against strike craft (more targets, less damage per target) and change its targeting priority (structures first, strikecraft second, ships last).  Do the same for all of the races.  If the middle weapon upgrade (which practically everyone will buy for their bases anyway) can act as a decent anti-strikecraft weapon, then a fully-upgraded base will be able to defend itself from carrier raiders pretty well, and without the need to buy a dedicated anti-strikecraft upgrade that would be useless in other situations.  Unless they want to bring in a HUGE fleet of carriers, your opponent won't be able to just park at the edge of the gravity well and whittle you down with swarms of strikecraft.

3> Over time, I'd like to see a design shift to more well-rounded vessels, instead of the overspecialized frigates (and occasionally cruisers) we have now.  The Advent carriers were a good example of this; they went from being pure carriers to occasional minelayers in Entrenchment.  Give each vessel an activated ability that lets it fill some other role, and you go a long way towards keeping the strategy interesting.  (If the Vasari siege ships could fire a long-range anti-structure torpedo, even if it was nowhere close to the terran torpedo ships, then many of the complaints about the Vasari anti-SB weakness go away.)  Likewise, if you give flak vessels some other useful role to fill, then people will be more inclined to have one on hand, and this indirectly reduces the appeal of strikecraft; in Entrenchment they make good minesweepers, but there needs to be more.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Spatzimaus, reply 5
1> While the Light Carrier might have more listed HP/shields than a Kodiak, it's in a different armor category.  Carriers are "Heavy" armor, Kodiaks are "Very Heavy".  This gives them different effectivenesses against various attack types, irrespective of the listed amounts.  For instance, Bombers deal twice as much damage to VH armor as to Heavy (100% vs 50%), but on the other hand, the Basic Assault class of ship (the weenie light frigates you start with) do 150% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  Likewise, the specialty cruiser ships (repair ships, disabling ships, etc.) and siege vessels do 125% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  The two armor types are completely identical against everything other than those I mentioned above.

 

even if it is under the "heavy armor" class IT SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE HP AND SHEILD THAN A KODIAK IT IS NOT RIGHT the HC is supposed to be the big powerful ship that can handle everything

Reply #32 Top

Quoting ravok2789, reply 6

Quoting Spatzimaus, reply 51> While the Light Carrier might have more listed HP/shields than a Kodiak, it's in a different armor category.  Carriers are "Heavy" armor, Kodiaks are "Very Heavy".  This gives them different effectivenesses against various attack types, irrespective of the listed amounts.  For instance, Bombers deal twice as much damage to VH armor as to Heavy (100% vs 50%), but on the other hand, the Basic Assault class of ship (the weenie light frigates you start with) do 150% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  Likewise, the specialty cruiser ships (repair ships, disabling ships, etc.) and siege vessels do 125% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  The two armor types are completely identical against everything other than those I mentioned above.

 

even if it is under the "heavy armor" class IT SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE HP AND SHEILD THAN A KODIAK IT IS NOT RIGHT the HC is supposed to be the big powerful ship that can handle everything

lol, not very elegantly said, but all very true. :D  

Light Carriers should not have that massive of hp and shields despite WHAT their armor is. Considering the Kiodiak is 2 Military Labs up the tech tree and more expensive to research. 

Reply #33 Top

That is true but Kodiaks are a lot more durable and Include weapons of their own to defend themselves that are quite a bit more damaging than 2 squadrons of strike craft. Not to mention no matter how much you upgrade defensive wise the kodiak will always be superior to the carrier. Its not a matter of how many hull points and shield points you have its a matter of how much punishment they can handle.

In a one on one fight a carrier and a kodiak are pretty even thats only if the kodiak has its ability that allows it to rapidly close the distance between it and the carrier.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting CreditSuisse, reply 7

Quoting ravok2789, reply 6
Quoting Spatzimaus, reply 51> While the Light Carrier might have more listed HP/shields than a Kodiak, it's in a different armor category.  Carriers are "Heavy" armor, Kodiaks are "Very Heavy".  This gives them different effectivenesses against various attack types, irrespective of the listed amounts.  For instance, Bombers deal twice as much damage to VH armor as to Heavy (100% vs 50%), but on the other hand, the Basic Assault class of ship (the weenie light frigates you start with) do 150% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  Likewise, the specialty cruiser ships (repair ships, disabling ships, etc.) and siege vessels do 125% to Heavy and only 50% to VH.  The two armor types are completely identical against everything other than those I mentioned above.

 

even if it is under the "heavy armor" class IT SHOULD NOT HAVE MORE HP AND SHEILD THAN A KODIAK IT IS NOT RIGHT the HC is supposed to be the big powerful ship that can handle everything
lol, not very elegantly said, but all very true.  

Light Carriers should not have that massive of hp and shields despite WHAT their armor is. Considering the Kiodiak is 2 Military Labs up the tech tree and more expensive to research. 

:grin:

Reply #35 Top

Quoting spiralblitz, reply 8
That is true but Kodiaks are a lot more durable and Include weapons of their own to defend themselves that are quite a bit more damaging than 2 squadrons of strike craft. Not to mention no matter how much you upgrade defensive wise the kodiak will always be superior to the carrier. Its not a matter of how many hull points and shield points you have its a matter of how much punishment they can handle.

In a one on one fight a carrier and a kodiak are pretty even thats only if the kodiak has its ability that allows it to rapidly close the distance between it and the carrier.

No. 1 Kiodiaks are higher up in the research tree.

No. 2, the intercept ability (the speed boost for Kiodiaks) are even HIGHER up in the tree than the Kiodiaks.

No. 3, the Kiodiak is a mini-battleship, its a MELEE unit, regardless of armor type there is no justification of a carrier having as much shields hp as a MELEE UNIT.

No. 4, you mentioned a Kiodiak vs. a Carrier = pretty even. Why should it be even? A Melee heavy close-up unit can't beat a support craft with no ship weapons of its own? how does this even make sense.

Furthermore with more numbers, Carriers get exponential more powerful. 4 Kiodiaks might be able to fight 4 Carriers (like you said, pretty evenly) but 20 Kiodiaks will lose against 20 Carriers, and that's assuming the Carrier spammer doesn't have HCs of his own, which he usually does.

Kiodiaks = do not counter carriers, even though they should if they managed to get that close. x_x