Tell me what you think about Don't Ask, Don't Tell

... and the possibility that it could go away

from JoeUser Forums

One of the items in the news lately is on the possibility that new President Obama may push strongly for the repeal or elimination of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell law that allows Gays to serve in the military but requires them to hide their sexual orientation and dismisses them from service if they do let their orientation be known.

Reportedly Obama will proceed somewhat more cautiously and slowly than did the last Democrat President of the United States, William Jefferson Clinton.  Clinton pushed hard -- despite heavy objection from the military services -- for allowing openly gay individuals to serve without restriction.  Unfortunately he caused a firestorm of controversy given that the military tends to be much more conservative than the U.S. populace would be.  Military leaders have to concern themselves that by having gay troops openly serve they could wind up with problems from others that bring their biases and bigotry into service with them.  Troops that don't wish to serve with gay persons could flee the military or could make trouble with gay troops that wish to serve with either causing disruptions and distractions to troop cohesion, problems that could lead to disastrous consequences in the heat of active military conflict.

Over 15 years have passed since Don't Ask, Don't Tell became the law of the land and the rules have changed along the way, but the question is just how much?  Should gay persons be allowed to serve openly?  Should the law be changed to Don't Ask, but don't boot if they do tell?

If the law is changed, will it harm our military readiness or will the benefits outweigh the potential costs?  You all tell me please.  I may share more of my thoughts on the topic over the course of the discussion, but in reality I'm more interested -- at least currently -- in what others think.

politics
26,715 views 54 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

More power to him!

It works in the Israeli army, I don't see why it is a problem for the American army.

The purpose of the army is to fight, not to be a bastion of traditional sexuality.

 

Reply #2 from PolMach Forums Top

I think it should stay in place. The military unit needs unity and throwing in something that could make other memebers of the unit not comphy with could cause issues....

 

On top of that... going into the navy where your in tight quarters months on end with others....this really is not a good idea either... I mean women are very limited on what they can do in the navy... I dont even know if one can serve on a sub....

 

Why cant they just leave well enough alone?Yet another step to what britan is ... they are now teaching how "gayness" feels good to grade schoolers

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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

Sex is not an appropriate topic in the workplace, for gay or straight individuals. 

Don't ask, don't tell is replacing an implicit expectation in the workplace with an explicit one.

 

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

To quote Bill Hicks:

 

"Anyone.....SssssTUPID enough to want to be in the military......should be allowed in."

 

I'm in it (aka stupid enough), so I can say that.

 

To really address the question, fear of gays in the military is just that.  Fear.  Fear has no place in policy making.  Let gays in, lettem do what they want in their off time.  They, like everyone else, will either do their jobs or they won't - what they do with their genitals in between is completely irrelevant.  

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

On top of that... going into the navy where your in tight quarters months on end with others....this really is not a good idea either... I mean women are very limited on what they can do in the navy... I dont even know if one can serve on a sub....
End of quote

 

Ignorant argument.  I've been on plenty of ships...no one cares, dude.  You should get over it.

Reply #6 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting OckhamsRazor, reply 5

On top of that... going into the navy where your in tight quarters months on end with others....this really is not a good idea either... I mean women are very limited on what they can do in the navy... I dont even know if one can serve on a sub....
 

Ignorant argument.  I've been on plenty of ships...no one cares, dude.  You should get over it.
End of OckhamsRazor's quote

hey I dont give 2 hoots what people do in their spare time. If they wanna be gay...be gay but do force others to accpet it and dont force it onto my kids. People that are pro gay are forcing people to accept it...

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

people that are pro gay are forcing people to accept it...
End of quote

I don't know, I hear this argument about forcing us to do a lot of things but I have to question that word "forcing". I think we throw that word around a tab bit to much. No one can force me to accept anything, not even the Gov't. They can pass laws all they want, wont stop me from disagreeing or having a different opinion about something. I don't have issues with gay people, I have some who are friends on mine. They can be quite nice, but I always make sure to make it known that I will not tolerate being hit on if it's clear I am not gay.

I think if gays want to serve, that's fine. But they should learn respect and not do gay things around other people who are not such as staring at other mens privates while showering or when naked and not touching others in a manner which can lead to fights. Just be another person, nothing more, nothing less.

Reply #8 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting CharlesCS, reply 7

people that are pro gay are forcing people to accept it...
I don't know, I hear this argument about forcing us to do a lot of things but I have to question that word "forcing". I think we throw that word around a tab bit to much. No one can force me to accept anything, not even the Gov't. They can pass laws all they want, wont stop me from disagreeing or having a different opinion about something. I don't have issues with gay people, I have some who are friends on mine. They can be quite nice, but I always make sure to make it known that I will not tolerate being hit on if it's clear I am not gay.

I think if gays want to serve, that's fine. But they should learn respect and not do gay things around other people who are not such as staring at other mens privates while showering or when naked and not touching others in a manner which can lead to fights. Just be another person, nothing more, nothing less.
End of CharlesCS's quote

 

Well see this is where the slippery slop starts. I view the military as like any other job to be honest and should be covered under the same rules. If I see 2 guys playing swords, that makes me Uncomphy ( not that I am not okay with you being gay , but do it on your time, ) would these people that are not into this be covered as feeling such a way? or would they get the thumb and get told deal with it? I think it will be the later.

 

ANd yes you are forced to accpet many things Charles.... Its either you do it or deal with the consequesnes (sp?)

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

People that are pro gay are forcing people to accept it...

End of quote

Some of my colleagues are straight. And they force me to accept it.

A daft argument, isn't it?

 

Reply #10 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 9


People that are pro gay are forcing people to accept it...



Some of my colleagues are straight. And they force me to accept it.

A daft argument, isn't it?

 
End of Leauki's quote

Good point but its not like they force you to be striaght....if they do how do they force that on you? if they say something like that at work then your more then welcome to take that up with your bosses because that is harrasment. But if they do it out in public.... and you dont like it or feel its "forced" on you then time to get new friends.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 3


Sex is not an appropriate topic in the workplace, for gay or straight individuals. 
Don't ask, don't tell is replacing an implicit expectation in the workplace with an explicit one.
 

End of Tova7's quote

 

Which I agree with... except they should also have straight people not talking about sex in the workplace.  I really don't care too much about when people talk about sex except when they push it too far.  And my "too far" is probably a lot further afield than most people.  To be honest, I've been a lot more alarmed or offended when a straight man has talked about his sex life than anyone else despite gender or orientation.  

The intention there was probably to harrass me even though it wasn't directed at me specifically.  I was supposed to be intimidated.

And now, welcome to the murky waters of sexual harrassment.

Reply #12 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting momijiki, reply 11

Tova7comment 3

Sex is not an appropriate topic in the workplace, for gay or straight individuals. 
Don't ask, don't tell is replacing an implicit expectation in the workplace with an explicit one.
 


 

Which I agree with... except they should also have straight people not talking about sex in the workplace.  I really don't care too much about when people talk about sex except when they push it too far.  And my "too far" is probably a lot further afield than most people.  To be honest, I've been a lot more alarmed or offended when a straight man has talked about his sex life than anyone else despite gender or orientation.  

The intention there was probably to harrass me even though it wasn't directed at me specifically.  I was supposed to be intimidated.

And now, welcome to the murky waters of sexual harrassment.
End of momijiki's quote

 

exactly... it opens the door to a whole heck of alot of ugly. ANd to be honest ANY peep from a co worker about stuff like this CAN be punishable up to termination. Ive seen people get caned for reaching for that itch.... they were walked out withen the hour and never allowed back. Was that sexual harrasement? in my or your eyes maybe not, but... in the eyes of another person it could make them not comphy so therefor bye bye see you in the UI line.

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

I don't think a gay person will be less loyal to their country, otherwise they wouldn't become a part of the armed foces.  It isn't a good policy in my opinion.

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

I dunno. I've never been in the military so I don't feel qualified to say but I do know a couple of openly gay cops and they seem to not have any big issues and do alright on the job.

(a friend of mine in the Navy told me once there's an old joke about submariners: 100 men go out and 50 couples come back, lol.)

Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

The rule served its purpose. It allowed gay people in the military, and it allowed the military a period of adjustment. There are openly gay people in the military right now, and the military is doing just fine.

Conservatives who are afraid that Obama is getting ready to dismantle America might want to worry about real things instead of what people are putting in their orifices.

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

Good point but its not like they force you to be striaght....if they do how do they force that on you?

End of quote

They don't force me to be gay either.

Turns out people talk about their relationships (or their adventures). Some people talk about encounters with members of the opposite sex, some talk about encounters with members of the same sex. Neither force anything on me. (And I'd rather not listen to ANY of their stories anyway.)

 

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Humbordt said:

The rule served its purpose. It allowed gay people in the military, and it allowed the military a period of adjustment. There are openly gay people in the military right now, and the military is doing just fine.


Conservatives who are afraid that Obama is getting ready to dismantle America might want to worry about real things instead of what people are putting in their orifices.

End of quote

Very insightful comments.  I think this might be just the point I would have made, though I disagree slightly about 'There are openly gay people in the military right now'.  Unfortunately for those individuals, and perhaps for the military as a whole, any openly gay individual is subject to being discharged if the military is aware of their status.

Over time I have somewhat warmed to the idea of allowing openly gay individuals to serve.  Realistically, I don't care what anyone's sexual orientation is, provided it isn't being pushed upon me.  Meaning, if you are gay and are don't go around trumpeting your sexual adventures and conquests I don't care.  However, if you go around telling everyone how about what you did last night, how many times, and with who, then you are being incredibly annoying and you are disturbing my calm.  That said, I feel much the same way about heterosexual individuals that are promiscuous and who advertise their adventures repeatedly.  I don't need to know, and don't want to know what you've done and with who.  I don't share and don't want to hear from those that do.

Where I expect the military will wind up is in a similar place.  All service members will be expected to maintain the Don't Tell status but there will no longer be punishment for those that have their status made known.

Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top

Leakui said:

Turns out people talk about their relationships (or their adventures). Some people talk about encounters with members of the opposite sex, some talk about encounters with members of the same sex. Neither force anything on me. (And I'd rather not listen to ANY of their stories anyway.)
End of quote

Again (as I've said directly above), this I agree with.  I could definitely see the military changing the rules such that talking about sexual encounters would be considered sexual harrassment or behavior unbecoming and could result in much lower penalties (loss of rank, etc.) but still not preclude anyone from serving.

Reply #19 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 16


Good point but its not like they force you to be striaght....if they do how do they force that on you?



They don't force me to be gay either.

Turns out people talk about their relationships (or their adventures). Some people talk about encounters with members of the opposite sex, some talk about encounters with members of the same sex. Neither force anything on me. (And I'd rather not listen to ANY of their stories anyway.)

 
End of Leauki's quote

 

Dude... your missing the point... ANY talk like that can be harrasment.... ANYTHING. If it does not have to do with the job itself you can march right into your HR department and file a claim ... its as simple as that. Stop trying to justify it by saying that "well they can do it" because this is NOT true.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Dude... your missing the point... ANY talk like that can be harrasment.... ANYTHING. If it does not have to do with the job itself you can march right into your HR department and file a claim ... its as simple as that. Stop trying to justify it by saying that "well they can do it" because this is NOT true.

End of quote

What's the matter with you?

What "point"? What are you talking about?

Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top

I don't give a damn if a person is gay. In the military sex shouldn't be an issue but it often is unfortunately. I think it's part of a larger agenda by gay activists to make their life style seem as natural as apple pie and baseball. The question is is it natural? I guess populations would decrease if it were. So to many it will never be accepted. I think the current policy actually helps gays (well maybe not the guy that wants to wear his party dress on liberty) and helps them avoid the many pitfalls heterosexuals have now in the military. We have enough issues with cultural diversity, do we need sexual diversity too. IMO the world (especially the US) is to PC now.

i don't doubt anyones patriotism because they are gay but let me put it this way: When I joined the military at 17 I was eager and wanted to go, if they had told me I would get to see plenty of girls naked in the shower everyday (even though there was no guarantee that I'd get laid) I'd have said "where do I sign" if I could even join because every horny young man would be trying to get in. Communal showers in the military are going away, but still exist. So I ask both men and women this question would you like a stranger of the opposite sex to have the ability to watch you under these conditions? Now just because the feelings are opposite and the equipment is the same as yours would it make a difference? If your comfortable the first way, the second won't make a difference. The same could hold true for shy homosexuals too.

Oh BTW, and if you think same sex rape doesn't happen in the military, you;d be quite wrong. While not common man on woman violence (which is low but still unacceptable) I'm sure the figures would increase (date rapes and the like) because people won't have to worry about their careers while their trying to get their unsuspecting victim drunk. It happens to women, who often don't report the man, because they can't remember if they consented or not, or just want to forget the whole thing. Just a prediction on my part, based on human nature.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

So I ask both men and women this question would you like a stranger of the opposite sex to have the ability to watch you under these conditions? 

End of quote

Opposite? Not a problem.

Same? No!

But maybe I'm weird.

I'm in a Badminton club and used to play Badminton weekends for a while. I only played with girls.

I had three reasons.

1. I win against girls in Badminton.

2. I do not want to watch another man hop around trying to strike a shuttlecock.

3. The club is a Protestant rich people's club and the man's shower room is one big communal shower and I didn't want to take showers with other men.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Which I agree with... except they should also have straight people not talking about sex in the workplace
End of quote

Oh believe me they do.  I was the only female in a squadron of over 500 men.  I can't tell you how many briefings we were forced to sit through explaining the implicit policy of keeping sexual conversation/topics/behavior out of the workplace.  And that was a long time before don't ask don't tell.

Don't ask don't tell in the military..applies as much to heterosexuals as it does to homos.

Reply #24 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 20


Dude... your missing the point... ANY talk like that can be harrasment.... ANYTHING. If it does not have to do with the job itself you can march right into your HR department and file a claim ... its as simple as that. Stop trying to justify it by saying that "well they can do it" because this is NOT true.



What's the matter with you?

What "point"? What are you talking about?
End of Leauki's quote

 

your the one rambling on about how your co workers "force" you to listen to their sex lives and be heteral sexual... if that does not sit well with you then report it... its a two way street

Reply #25 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 23

Which I agree with... except they should also have straight people not talking about sex in the workplace
Oh believe me they do.  I was the only female in a squadron of over 500 men.  I can't tell you how many briefings we were forced to sit through explaining the implicit policy of keeping sexual conversation/topics/behavior out of the workplace.  And that was a long time before don't ask don't tell.

Don't ask don't tell in the military..applies as much to heterosexuals as it does to homos.
End of Tova7's quote

 

see thats the point... but the "gays" want to make sure its known they are gay.... even in the workplace it seems. Can you imagine the first sexual harrasment lawsuit filled from a man that was harrased by another man? the guy that filed would get Burned at the stake and labled as a "gay hater"

 

Like I said its a slippery slop and to be honest I really dont want to start down this path... give it some more time I say when things are a bit "looser" like 10 or so years and we can revisit it when this may be more accpetable...

 

"my god this place needs a spell checker!"