@ jpmurph1. I do not like Bush, either, While I do not live in the US and have never met him in person, every time I saw him on TV the was something about his demeanor, body language, whatever, that never sat right with me, and he decided to invade Iraq all my suspicions/feelings were proven correct. He surely was someone I could never like, trust or respect, and I certainly would never defend him if/when I believed him to be in the wrong. However, dislike him as I do, I have to agree with WOM here, Bush is in no way responsible for the economic woes facing the US and the rest of the World. He may have contributed to them through inaction whenit was required, and he may have contributed by openly supporting a capitalist/open market economy, but he certainly is not 100% responsible for the crash.

There were a number of factors involved, and primarily corporate greed was the driving factor. Bush could and should have stepped in to quash that, but he was not inclined to do so because the corporate world provided him a power base, funds and access to resources: ie, materials to go to war, etc.  That was his failing in this whole sorry mess... failure to reign in the greed when it was within his means to do so.  Blame Bush for that by all means, but he did not set the wheels in motion.  Those were set in motion decades ago and nobody has since bothered to apply the brakes.  Bush inherited those wheels, as has Obama, and they will continue to turn all the while the American people support/tolerate a society that puts profit first, war second and people last every time. 

Hopefully the people will support Obama to apply the brake and turn US society around before it goes the way of the Roman Empire.  Yes, the Roman Empire was Capitalist and Imperialist, and it fell into decay because the upper echelon was too busy looking out for its own interests and neglected those below them... those who built and maintained their infrastruture, those who gathered their food and resources, those who fought their wars, and when you neglect your subordinates long enough they will rebel, refuse to work and allow everything to falls into decay.  That is the fate of the US if it does not adjust its social thinking and put an end to capitalist greed.  It won't happen?  While Al Qaeda remains a threat, there are people who openly advocate revolution to change things, and if enough of them get together, and are pissed off enough, the threat will come from within, just as it did in Rome.  It may not happen right now, but it certainly deserves serious thought.

@ wulfn1: First off I'd like to wish you better luck with your son. Responsibility is a tough lesson at any age and being a parent I am so grateful mine didn't go that route because it certainly could have happened. I'll hold a good thought that his path will be easier in the future. Also, try not to take all the guilt on your shoulders, wulfie (if I may call you that?). He grew up with many sources of input and for the young it's tough...the judgement ceters in the frontal cortex/lobes don't hook up and form the required pathways until age 21-23.

I'm not sure that was the aim of the 'bail out'. I truly believe it was to prevent catastrophe: I don't think we'd be better off had it not been done. In fact, I believe we'd be worse off. I want an accounting. The IRS demands that of all of us, and I demand it of my government.

Bravo!

I too have such hope in my heart for all of us. What an extraordinary man stands at the head of our Government.

I've just read his autobiography and I highly recommend it. Our children and children all over the world (as well as adults) should.

A speech by Sir Winston Churchill comes to mind. It was given at The Harrow School on October 29, 1941 (dark days indeed, dwarfing our own today):

"You cannot tell from appearances how things will go. Sometimes imagination makes things out far worse than they are; yet without imagination not much can be done. Those people who are imaginative see many more dangers than perhaps exist; certainly many more than will happen; but then they must also pray to be given that extra courage to carry this far-reaching imagination. But for everyone, surely, what we have gone through in this period - I am addressing myself to the School - surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. "

Take courage. Take faith. Be of strong heart. He who stood by us in darker days and more desperate hours since the beginning of time stands with us now as then.

 

lol lets see if I do it right this time!!

@wulfn1:

Any lack of accountability will have a detrimental effect. I agree. See my reply this thread #63.

Absolutely agree with you re the future as well. As for the past? I demand full accountability from H. Paulson. Not one iota less. That he was allowed to say he wouldn't reveal where the money went? I would have the FBI pay him a "Blago Visit" at home and frog march him straight to jail.

Betcha he'd answer questions pronto.

Well here is some good news on the economic front, Barack Obama is set to introduce regulations on banks, lending a borrowing, etc.  Hopefully this will restore some stability and confidence in the banking/financial sectors.

However, while the future should be paramount in all our thoughts, particularly in those of governments and the business sector, the past should not be forgotten,,, and certainly not left unattended....

The reason I say it can not be left unattended is that there are monies in the pockets of those who did not come by them honestly or deservingly, and these monies need to be returned to the rightful owners... those who were cheated, conned and left near destitute or worse.  Furthermore, bad pennies have a nasty habit of reappearing, so to prevent these unscrupulous bastards rearing their ugly heads in financial circles a little farther down the track, to wreak more havoc, they need to be rounded up, prosecuted and jailed.  A balaclavaed bank robber is dealt with severely in the judicial system, and so should these so-called bankers and financiers, because what they have done is tantamount to bank robbery. 

They may be/were bank employees, and they may not have performed armed holdups, but customers and investors monies were stolen just the same, and the fact that it came from 'within' makes it even more insidious.  These people are/were in a position of trust, and were given the trust to protect customers' funds, and this makes them worse than the armed robber because they betrayed that trust.

So yes, Doc, drag H. Paulson over the coals and make him divulge where the money went.  I'm not normally a violent man, but I'd haul his arse off to Guantanamo and bitch slap the bastard until he told me what I want/need to know... and all his cohorts, I'm that angered at what they've done..

I'd also outlaw executive bonuses for bankers as well... and make it retrospective because, looking at the state of financial affairs now, those already paid bonuses were neither earned or deserved.  Nor, given their more than generous salaries, were they needed.  No, it was just more of the same, corporate excesses and greed... and that has to stop if this world is to get back on its feet financially.

The headline to this on yahoo 7 here in Oz was "Cheap and Nasty"

Looks to me like Fuld knew he hadn't come by this mansion honestly and signed it over to his wife to protect the ill-gotten asset.  I sincerely hope the administraotors responsible for investigating and dealing with the bank scum are empowered under law to sieze it anyhow... and should it proven to have been acquired via illicit dealings/proceeds, so it should be, despite the 'sale' to his wife.  In fact, charge her with complicity and being an accessory in the commission of a crime.... cos there's no way on earth she didn't know.

I'll just answer the question in the subject; No!

I just found the following on a finance page at yahoo7.  While the comment comes from a forum type discussion, it does make for some interesting reading.... more here

"In short, the majority of the money lent out by banks is literally created from nothing."

If you think that's bad, have a look at the derivatives trades around the world by the various banks(investment banks are the worst). Basically there are hundreds of trillions of dollars in bets, ranging from commodities and currencies to interest rates. JP Morgan has asset backing of 4% over it's derivative bets i.e for every $100 bet, they have $4 in assets - so the other $96 is basically fictional(then think about that per $100 trillion - $96 trillion of fictional money). Now these bets are hedged in various ways with the idea being that one cancels the other out with a thin slice in the middle collected by the bank(not so thin when you start talking trillions)."

Nasty stuff, that, financial institutions lending money that exists only on paper.  In other words, they're charging interest on monies they never actually had to lend to begin with. 

If my opinion of bastard bankers was pretty low before, it has just taken one hell of a nosedive.

Did anyone get a good look at CitiCorps new $50M corporate jet, bought with bail out funds.  And what's better yet, it isn't even American made.  Who runs this country?  When you find the truth, let me know.

LOL...I was going to post that! Also, CitiCorp deserves a MAJOR drubbing. Tell ya about it later, mate.

BTW, it's the Insurance Co.'s...but I somehow doubt that's news.

They should just take every corporate banker, insurance company CEO or any other related low lives that have squandered bailout monies, dress them in pink tu-tu's and lock them up in San Quentin's general population yard.  We've had to pay out the nose, now they can pay out the ............!  Until this country starts wearing boxers instead of pink panties we'll never fix squat.  Sorry for my plain, rough, working man's vocabulary.

I just told my husband we need to bring back tar and feathering just for this one occasion.



 Boxers?!!  I think this country needs to go commando, let some air circulate and sunshine hit some places that have remained dark for too long.  (Pink panties, indeed....Ed, they just aren't as comfortable as they sound!)

Damned disgraceful at best... but more like downright criminal is what fits this travesty best.  It seems there is no level to which these low-life bastards won't stoop, even when the World is falling into financial decay, and they need to be stopped sooner, not later.  If I were Barack Obama, I'd be demanding every red cent of that bailout money back, because it's obviously going to lurks, perks, excesses and undeserved bonuses, etc... NOT where it was intended.  If some of these banks fall, so be it... people should be withdrawing all their money before they do, and the gov't can/should protect deposited funds for those who can't or don't.

For far too long these corporate figures have been living beyond their means... beyond any reasonable means... to unforgivable excesses more accurately describes it, and this greed must be stopped before it bleeds everyone and everything dry.  I mean, realistically, who needs a $50M personal jet; and a $30M luxury yacht; and a $25M mansion; and a Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Maserati and Ferrari... and $200 +M in cash?  If these corporate high rollers had earned all this honestly, you'd say "good luck to them", but for the most part, they have accumulated these things through dishonesty, deceit, fraud, embezzlement and greed... they are neither earned or deserved.  Frankly, it should all be confiscated and returned to the rightful owners - those companies/owners who were more or less blackmailed ("I/we won't work for you if you don'y pay up) into funding these excesses - or redistributed where they can do the most good.

The power to enable this is in the hands of the people - ie, boycotting goods that support it; withdrawing deposited funds; offloading shares back to the companies, and forcing elected representatives to act against it - but it won't happen if people continue to accept it and sit on their hands.  The time to act is NOW, or it will be too late... a depression will descend upon us.

 

Just for you starkers    

There's no need to apologise for or excuse your "working man's volcabulary"... it speaks volumes and makes public just how ordinary folk feel about these corporate excesses killing off decency and any hope we have of returning to economic mormality. If anything, Ed, you were rather conservative in your choice of words.  I, and I'm sure quite a few others, have much stronger language which would apply, but we have some modicum of decency and will not stoop to their levels of immoral indecency.

I'm in a similar boat to you, Ed, so yeah, man, I hear ya... loud and clear.

What, just the ONCE???   There is far too much corporate greed and corruption for a one-off tar and feathering.  More would be needed... MUCH more!  However, reducing them to less than what they expect us to live on would be more appropriate... and a prison cell without all the mod-cons to which they've become accustomed would fit the bill just nicely.  I'm not an advocate of violence or over-the-top retribution, because then we are not separated from the animals, so an appropriate prison term is sufficient for me.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head here, Karen!  Their tiny corporate brains haven't been getting enough air or sunshine, so yeah, "commando"  would be good, but me thinks they could do to go hobo for a while... you know, where ventilation is excellent cos everything has holes in it.

More US jobs to go.  The 2,110 job loses at Caterpillar are on top of 20,000 permanent job cuts already announced by the company.

And what the banks/bankers did to contribute is NOT criminal??????

This is why the bankers are responsible for the financial crisis, and have in fact exacerbated it.....

"President Barack Obama on Thursday called it "shameful" that Wall Street workers received more than $US18 billion ($A27.61 billion) in bonuses in 2008 while their firms were receiving taxpayer help."

I'm sure the US taxpaying public did not intend for bailout funds intended to save banks from total collapse to go in bonuses to the tune of US$18 billion.  That's almost USD$20b out of the $450b already spent on bailing out the banks... banks being the operative word here.  The bailout was intended to prop up banks, NOT line the individual pockets of greedy and already wealthy bankers.

See more here..

Because we already know that people are not greedy. Specially not in bad times...

 

And that cat looks like the cat that WILL approve your loan... And send someone to break your fingers if you don't pay up before half the time the loan is due.

Lets print up more money to cover this round of bailout/stimulis package.  I see $300 million for rubbers, guess that qualifies as stimulis.  And yes, these idiots that run these companies should cut back and quit wasting money and getting bonuses.  And yes, there should be accountability for the money they get.  But lets cut the pork out of this batch of money we don't have.  We can't keep printing money we don't have as that making our money so cheal that it will hurt us in the long run.

Words are weak unless Obama has the nads to actually do something to these leeches for the American public to see.  How many times about how many items have we seen totally disappear the second the media drops the story.  So let's not forget another of the prime drivers behind the mess in this country and in fact the world, THE MEDIA.

(Remember, people should not fear their government, but the government should fear it's people.) Paraphrased from unknown source.

No mick, he sends THIS guy after you.

Do we really print more money...does paper money mean anything?  Isn't it all pretty much just the moving of numbers from one bank's computer to the other bank's computer?  I haven't seen actual paper money in months.  Between direct deposit and debit card, there is no need for me to handle cash -- it's just computer transactions of a running talley of numbers.  I'm pretty sure that's how it is with most people, so why even bother with the printing part?  Printing is just an unnecessary expense when it comes to commerce and business transactions.  Let's cut that out. 

When a cashless society goes broke, what happens then?

Part of the problem is that we have become or are becoming a cashless society.... accountibility goes out the window when banks can play with electronic money; can loan when they do not actually have the cash reserves, and can reap interest on monies they never had to lend in the first place.  In other words, the banks profit on non-existent monies... by virtue of the fact they say they loaned them.

So what happens when cashless banks go broke... recession, unemployment and the GDP goes down the toilet.  The banks should never have been allowed to hedge bets/lend on funds they didn't have... not ever, and the sooner governments, banks and corporations realise that economies will always go guts up when based on electronic funds/transfers, stocks/shares and prining money willy-nilly without having the reserves/resources to back it, the better.

I predicted this recession 15 - 20 years ago, and so should the World's economists, because there is no such thing as a fast buck and the only way to make one is to earn it honestly.... something the corporate world has lost touch with because of greed.