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The Birth of The Whore

The Birth of The Whore

The Whore of Babylon

Does the name Nimrod ring a bell? 

Nimrod was a mighty hunter, of men's souls the saying goes, living after the days of Noah and the great flood.  You can find the biblical story in Genesis 11 but there is also much more written outside the pages of the bible and quite easily attainable.  Nimrod was a leader, one who established his own kingdom, its chief city being Babel or Babylon.  His goal was to unify the people to follow his lead in a revolt against God as they attempted to build a tower of worship to the sun. 

Of course, God stepped in, confused their language and the people scattered settling around the globe as He intended in the first place. 

According to ancient writings the wife of Nimrod was Semiramis.  She later became known as the "queen of heaven."  The story is told that after her husband died, he became a sun god and she later became impregnated by a sunbeam carrying her late husband's sperm.  This, of course, would be considered a counterfeit miraculous birth.  Her son's name was Tammuz.   When he was a young man he was killed by a wild boar while out hunting.

She mourned his death for many days and miraculously he was resurrected (now a counterfeit resurrection).  When he was resurrected he was resurrected as Nimrod in the flesh.  Sound familiar?   This became the beginning of a counterfeit religious pagan system and can be verified easily enough.  Just google any of the names involved and you will see the writings behind it. 

The Harlot is not just a harlot now.  She has now given birth and has become the mother of Harlots to many other pagan religions started right here with the family of Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz manifesting itself in many other false mother/child religious systems throughout all history. 

In Egypt we had the mother/son of Iris and Osiris

In Assyria we had the mother/son of Ishtar and Bacchus

In India we had the mother/son of Isi and Iswara

In Asia we had the mother/son of Cybele and Deoius

In Greece we had the mother/son of Aphrodite and Eros

And in Rome we had the mother/son of Venus and Cupid.

Cupid?  Yes, the cute little angel with the arrows we celebrate on Valentine's Day.   The names and places may have changed but it's all the same mother and son worship that started with the family of Nimrod.  Sounds innocent especially when you think of Cupid who is associated with love.   Cupid is none other than Nimrod resurrected and is always seen with a bow and arrow.  Remember Nimrod was a mighty hunter of what?  Men's souls. 

This story is not just a cute little story that has no merit behind it.  We see the history of all this inside and outside the bible.  When the Jews were in Babylonian captivity Jeremiah admonished the Jews for worshipping the "queen of heaven."  He said this to them

"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to other gods that they may provoke me to anger." 

The prophet Ezekiel during this same time period recorded his vision writing this:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north and behold there sat women weeping for Tammuz.  Then said he to me, Have you seen this, O son of man? turn you yet again and you shall see greater abominations than these."  Ezek 8:14-15

The Jews had prostituted themselves away from God by such worship.  In the Temple of God itself they were found worshipping Tammuz the son of Semiramis.  The Jews were warned repeatedly to stop and turn back to God by Jeremiah yet they did not heed the Prophet's words.   They  were eventually exiled to Babylon even as Jeremiah wept over his homeland knowing their outcome.  Their temple was smashed and the altar ruined. 

So in effect God gave them what they wanted.  He gave them captivity in a land of idolatry for seventy years.   The principle of reaping and sowing was in full swing.  We always reap more than what we sow and we always reap after a measurable amount of time after we sow.  It may not be right away but it will eventually come to fruition. 

This exile seems to have worked because after the Jews returned from Babylon, idolatry has not been a problem since for the Jewish people. 

The Catholic church has drunk deeply and eagerly from the golden cup that Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots clutched in her hand.  The Reformers who recognized this lost their very lives trying to disassociate and break with Rome's idolatrous practices with the same mother/child worship perpetuated by their own Mother Church. 

All over the globe we can still see the shrines to "Mary, Queen of Heaven" and her son.  The Reformers mistakenly believed that Rome was the Mother of harlots spoken by John in his book of Revelation, but who could blame them?  It's written that the Harlot is drunken with the blood of the saints.  As these Reformers (saints) went to their stakes kindled by the pages of their bibles and set ablaze by the RCC they had no idea that Rome was just another harlot in a long line born to the Mother of Harlots. 

The Mother Harlot got her beginnings way back at the foot of the Tower of Babel and those who drank from her cup were scattered all over the world.  Every religion, every idolatrous observance and every attempt of man-made worship can be traced back to Babylon, the Harlot's birthplace.  She was well matured before Rome ever came on the scene and even now continues to "sit on many waters." 

The RCC, is not by far, the only religion who has succumbed to the seduction of the Harlot.  Many cults, Buddhism, Shintoism, Protestantism, Muhammadanism, and all the other thousands of religions have taken more than a little sip of her perpetual overflowing cup.  They have become intoxicated.  This intoxication is brought about by her persecution of the bride of Christ.  She plays the jealous woman.  Her anger is kindled against the true love of God and so she persecutes those that make up His bride. 

Yes, this Harlot is a jealous woman.  She represents all false religion throughout history and is still active in the persecution of all those who love God and are faithful to Him. 

Throughout all of history God's people have always been persecuted by false religion coupled with godless government   We are fast approaching the time that will peak in what is called by Jesus as the "great tribulation" in which the Harlot (false religious system) rides the beast (godless government) and comes after God's elect in such a way that Christ even said himself "Except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved."  Matt 24. 

 

"My people, go you out of the midst of her."  Jeremiah 51:45

"Come out of her, my people."  Revelation 18:4

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

38,309 views 89 replies
Reply #51 Top

Quoting KFC, reply 50
HE ALWAYS WAS.

Alpha and Omega.

:sun: 

Reply #52 Top

She DID NOT give birth to God.

This proves your underlying Nestorianism.

She DID NOT give birth to God. She gave birth to HER SON Jesus who was 100% man.

In your effort to escape honoring Mary's status as the Mother of God, you acknowledge only Jesus' human nature and therefore fall into the Nestorius' error.

When the Blessed VIrgin Mary gave birth to Jesus, He was 100% God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. It is a person who is conceived and born, not a nature. What Person was born of Mary? A Divine Person only, not a human person, but a Divine Person who took on a human nature. 

HE ALWAYS WAS.

Yes He always was. That's why I said

Here’s the mystery. In Jesus Christ there are two natures—human and divine--- and these natures are united without confusion in one divine Person---the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, in what is called the hypostatic union. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is a Divine Person, that is, God, then Mary is rightly called the “Mother of God”.

To say that Christ was a human person is to deny the hypostatic union. I can't help it if you are confused about the distinction between person and nature but by now you should be able to perceive the contradiction inherent in your position. 

Lula posts:

Listen to this beautiful song about my Blessed Mother Mary…she gave birth to God, the Emmanuel with us, and the Word made flesh…. “and when you kiss your little baby, you’ve kissed the face of God” is one of the lines...

KFC posts:

she gave birth to God, t

and this statement again, shows the adoration and idolatry surrounding Mary.

It would be a mortal sin for Catholics to adore the Blessed Virgin Mary and put her above God. We don't do that.

In order to attack Catholic doctrine, Protestants make this claim, but it's false and doesn't stick.  

This is plain and simple theological and Biblical truth. No adoration, no idolatry surrounding Mary in saying this.

I gave two Biblical citations which you cut from the quote!

Mary gave birth to Jesus who is God. Mary gave birth to "Emmanuel with us" who is God and Mary gave birth to "the Word made flesh" who is God.

St.Luke 1:35 says She gave birth to God. "And the angel answering said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also, the HOLY which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Reply #53 Top

Interesting convo ladies.  People have been arguing this since the Bible became more available to the masses.

Lula,

How would if affect your faith or ideas about salvation (if at all) if for the rest of your life, you never mentioned Mary in prayer or in service?  Would that be a sin?  Can Catholics who never mention Mary in prayer still be Catholic?

How odd would it be to enter a Catholic church that had no statues of Mary, made no reference to her in prayer?

Just curious. I think the answer is important though.  In my experience, those things which we "can't live without" tend to be what we really worship, no matter if we think we don't.

(And glad to see you are chipper as ever!)

Reply #54 Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 51
Alpha and Omega.

Thank you!  Perfect!

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
This proves your underlying Nestorianism.

oh, so now I get a title?  

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
In your effort to escape honoring Mary's status as the Mother of God, you acknowledge only Jesus' human nature and therefore fall into the Nestorius' error.

No, I never said HE wasn't deity.  I said she did NOT give birth to his deity.  He ALWAYS WAS.  She gave birth to his humanity.  Big Diff.  She was a vessel who carried him into this world as a human.  Somebody had to do it.  She was chosen.   

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
Since Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is a Divine Person, that is, God, then Mary is rightly called the “Mother of God”.

Saying so elevates her to a place she was never ever put in scripture.  Show me in scripture where she's called the MOTHER of GOD.   Anywhere?  Just ONE scripture.  

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
St.Luke 1:35 says She gave birth to God. "And the angel answering said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also, the HOLY which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Do you see where you're saying one thing but the scripture is saying another?  It doesn't say she gave birth to God.  Does it? You're saying so but the scripture is NOT.    Read it carefully.  I know you're smarter than you're letting on.   

It says.. "he SHALL be called the Son of God." That DOES NOT say she gave birth to God.  So when did that happen?  For help you may want to check Psalm 2 (instead of your RCC dogma)  which reads...   "you are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father."  V7b

When was that?  

hint.  it involved water and a dove.  

Now to clarify.  Mary DID NOT give birth to God.  The RCC DOES elevate Mary.  Isn't there pictures and images all over  the RCC where it shows Mary towering OVER her son?  Isn't that elevation depicted?  

 

 

 

 

Reply #55 Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 53
In my experience, those things which we "can't live without" tend to be what we really worship, no matter if we think we don't.

great!  So now I'm really worrying about chocolate.  

 

Reply #56 Top

also...found out something about 1:35 where is says "Son of God"  It is NOT found in many manuscripts.  So it's actually a questionable insert to say the least and something a doctrine should NOT be built around.  

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
It would be a mortal sin for Catholics to adore the Blessed Virgin Mary and put her above God. We don't do that.

Can you show me exactly where it says in the RCC catechism that it's a mortal sin for Catholics to adore her?  

Because I can show you right on the Vatican website itself  where it lists her as "co-redeemer."  

Sounds pretty elevated to me.  

 

Reply #57 Top

oh and something else, like I said before so much I could say...

 

Jesus had this very same argument I'm having with you.  Only he had it with the Pharisees.  You can find it in Matt 22:41-46

 

"While the Pharsees were gathered together Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ?  Whose son is he?  The son of David, they replied.  He said to them, "How is it then that David speaking by the Spirit calls him Lord?  For he says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."  (quoting Psalm 110) If then David calls him Lord, how can He be his son?"

No one cold say a word in reply and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."  

 

It's EXACTLY what I'm saying to you.   It's the SAME EXACT argument.  

 

Reply #58 Top

Quoting KFC, reply 54
This proves your underlying Nestorianism.

Quoting KFC, reply 54
oh, so now I get a title?

Yup. You talk just like Nestorius did. Repeating the same heresy.  http://carm.org/nestorianism or http://theresurgence.com/2011/01/19/nestorius-know-your-heretics 

 

Quoting KFC, reply 54
I said she did NOT give birth to his deity.

Then read St.Luke 1:35 again "...The HOLY which shall be born of thee...."

Quoting KFC, reply 55
St.Luke 1:35 says She gave birth to God. "And the angel answering said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also, the HOLY which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

"...The HOLY which shall be born of thee.." is Jesus, True God and True Man at the same time from the moment of His conception. Mary held God in her womb and when she kissed Him, she kissed the face of God.

Quoting KFC, reply 54
Do you see where you're saying one thing but the scripture is saying another? It doesn't say she gave birth to God. Does it? You're saying so but the scripture is NOT.

Yes, St.Luke 1:35 teaches Mary gave birth to God.Who is "the HOLY" if not God? The Son of God is Jesus the Second

Person of the Blessed Trinity...Jesus is God who always was and will be..the Alpha and the Omega.

Quoting KFC, reply 56
Can you show me exactly where it says in the RCC catechism that it's a mortal sin for Catholics to adore her?

It goes to the First Commandment of God....Catholics must adore and worship only the One and True God.  It's a mortal sin for Catholics to adore or worship any human.

 

Reply #59 Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
Here’s the mystery. In Jesus Christ there are two natures—human and divine--- and these natures are united without confusion in one divine Person---the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, in what is called the hypostatic union. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is a Divine Person, that is, God, then Mary is rightly called the “Mother of God”.

Quoting KFC, reply 54
Saying so elevates her to a place she was never ever put in scripture. Show me in scripture where she's called the MOTHER of GOD. Anywhere? Just ONE scripture.

In St.Luke 1:43 when Mary visits her cousin Elizabeth, Elizabeth greets her, saying,

'ANd it came to pass when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?"

It's right there...Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost recognizes that Mary is the Mother of God.

As for me, Mary is the Mother of My Lord God too. Is she the Mother of your Lord God?

 

Reply #60 Top

Hello Tova,

Quoting Tova7, reply 53
How would if affect your faith or ideas about salvation (if at all) if for the rest of your life, you never mentioned Mary in prayer or in service?

It would be impossible to never mention the Blessed Mother in prayer for she is a vital part of the true Christian religion. One of Christianity's main doctrines is the Incarnation (which means the Eternal, Almighty, Infinite, Son of God took upon Himself a human nature. Without ceasing to be God , the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity became man at the same time). 

By virtue of the Incarnation, Jesus Christ came to earth and was born of the Virgin Mary. You think of Christ, you think of Mary, and you think of Mary, you think of Christ.

 

 

 

Reply #61 Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 60
By virtue of the Incarnation, Jesus Christ came to earth and was born of the Virgin Mary. You think of Christ, you think of Mary, and you think of Mary, you think of Christ.

Lula, I appreciate your perspective.  Thank you.

When I think of Christ though, I tend to focus on my relationship with Him, not his Mama.

Mary was blessed.  To be sure.  Blessed among women.

But she wasn't sinless or perfect.  If she was, Christ need never to have come.  Mary could have died for our sins.  God needed just one spotless lamb to atone for our sin.  Not two. 

There is no mention of the passover lamb's mother in any of the first rituals (foreshadowing activities) God commanded of the Jews.  Jesus, the passover lamb, is sufficient.  

Honestly, the whole trinity is so much to wrap my head around...I couldn't imagine throwing in Mary and trying to make it fit with what I know about scripture. 

There is only one true God.  He alone deserves our worship and prayers.  Anything else, at least in my mind, is idolatry. 

But I do understand why you believe the way you do, and millions like you.  



Reply #62 Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 60
By virtue of the Incarnation, Jesus Christ came to earth and was born of the Virgin Mary. You think of Christ, you think of Mary, and you think of Mary, you think of Christ.

no, this isn't right Lula.  

When I think of Christ I think of no one else.  No one else died for my sins but HIM.  He stands alone.  Only HE is God incarnate.

He is not to be linked with any other human (including his mother).  Even HE said himself for us to forsake mother and father for His sake.  

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 60
It would be impossible to never mention the Blessed Mother in prayer for she is a vital part of the true Christian religion.

But this is NOT biblical Lula.  Not at all.  Christ taught us to pray.  To pray to his mother is to ignore His own instruction.  

She IS NOT a vital part of the true Christian religion.  Even Paul himself who wrote almost the whole new testament said he was the chief of all sinners.  He was the least of all the Apostles.  He desired no attention for himself.  

He played an extraordinary part of the Christian faith as did all the OT and NT characters we read about.  But when it all comes down to it, they were all willing to put themselves aside as nobodies to give glory to the King of Kings.  

Your focus is off.  It should ONLY be on Christ and His finished work on the cross.  Anything else is an obstacle that Satan is using to put in your way.  

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 58
It goes to the First Commandment of God....Catholics must adore and worship only the One and True God.  It's a mortal sin for Catholics to adore or worship any human.

where does it say this?  You still haven't shown me.  I want to see this on the Vatican See.

You're saying one thing here but saying another every single time you discuss Mary.   You have already told us that you adore her and your words show that you do worship her when you elevate her position.  To pray to anyone other than God himself is to worship another.   Doesn't matter if you "say" you are NOT worshiping her.  Your actions speak louder.

 

 

 

Reply #63 Top

Quoting KFC, reply 32
They pray to her using the rosary. This is ALL PAGAN and violates scripture. Every time you pray to the father it's 10x to Mary. She gets the majority of the prayers yet Christ taught us how to pray in Matt 6. Nothing like this.

Yes, many Catholics, me included, have a great affection for praying the Holy Rosary. It’s made up of 15 decades for praying the Angelic Salutation, that is, the Hail Mary, equal in number to the 150 Psalms. “The Our Father” prayer precedes each decade.

We begin with a preparatory prayer: O God, Whose only begotten Son, by His life death and Resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life! Grant, we beseech Thee, that by meditating on these mysteries of the most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain, and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Each decade is dedicated to and prayed in honor of one of the 15 Holy Mysteries, that is, some holy event in the life of Our Lord or His Blessed Mother Mary. The practice is to say the prayers while meditating on the Joyful, Sorrowful or Glorious Mysteries. Here they are:

JOYFUL MYSTERIES: The Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin. St.Luke 1:26-38. The Visitation of the Blessed Virgin to St. Elizabeth, St.Luke 1:39-45.   The Incarnation of the birth of Jesus, St.Luke 2:1-7, 10-11    The Presentation of  Jesus at the Temple, St. Luke 2:22-38  Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple, St.Luke 2:41-51.

SORROWFUL MYSTERIES: The Agony of Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane, St. Luke 22:39,41,44,47-48   The Scourging at the Pillar, St.John 19:1; Is. 53:5  Crowning of Jesus with Thorns and Mocked by Soldiers,  St.Matt. 27: 27-31   Jesus is Condemned and Takes up the Cross, St.Mark 15:6-15; St.John 19:15-17  The Crucifixion and Death of Jesus, St.Luke 23: 44-47.  

GLORIOUS MYSTERIES: The Resurrection, St.Matt. 28:1-10   Ascension of Jesus, Acts 1:6-12   Pentecost. Descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles, Acts 2:1-6  The Assumption of Mary into Heaven, Judith 13:18; Eccl. 24:14, 16, 24  Crowning of the Blessed Virgin in Heaven, Apoc. 12:1.

Quoting KFC, reply 32
This is ALL PAGAN and violates scripture.

Wrong again, KFC. This pagan charge just doesn’t stick. No way is praying the Holy Rosary pagan or a violation of Scripture.

The prayers embodied in the Holy Rosary were composed by Christ Himself in the case of “the Our Father”, and by the Angel Gabriel, St. Elizabeth and the Council of Ephesus in “the Hail Mary”.

We are in very good company with those prayers.

To know and pray the Rosary is to love prayer and meditating on the life, death and passion of Jesus Christ. Ignorance of its blessedness has caused Catholics to be scoffed at such as you have done here. To that, here is a short tale from John J. O’Brien’s, Tablet that’s worth repeating.

“I was riding in the subway and as two nuns left the train their Rosaries made a clinking noise. A man, thinking he made a joke, said to his companion, the beads sounded like skid chains. Both laughed.

A woman sitting at the side of these men quickly spoke up saying, you’re right. They are skid chains which keep all who wear them from skidding down the slippery paths of life into hell and damnation, and each link on the chain binds them to Heaven and God. What that more would use them, for we’d have less moral degenerates.”   

 

Reply #64 Top

double post

 

 

Reply #65 Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 53
How would if affect your faith or ideas about salvation (if at all) if for the rest of your life, you never mentioned Mary in prayer or in service? Would that be a sin? Can Catholics who never mention Mary in prayer still be Catholic?

Prayer is an important part of Catholicism  and while Catholics are encouraged to pray the Holy Rosary, we are never told we “must” pray it. So, it is not a sin if one does not pray “the Hail Mary” prayer which is:

"Hail, Mary, full of grace! The Lord is with thee: Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

Note, the first 2 parts are Scripture....St.Luke 1:28, 39. 

"Hail, Mary, full of grace! The Lord is with thee: was composed by the Angel Gabriel when he came to tell the Blessed Virgin she was selected to be the Mother of God.

 “The Lord is with thee”, by God’s grace and favor, the Blessed Virgin Mary is the one He chose from eternity. God is with all of us, but He was with her in a very special manner. She is the perfect woman in the mind of God.

"Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus" was said by Mary's cousin Elizabeth, mother of St. John the Baptist.  "Blessed" because of all the women Mary was chosen to be the mother of His Son and Our Redeemer and "blessed" is that Son Himself. Ever notice that? When we recite this part of the prayer, we bend our head in reverence when we say the name, Jesus.

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." This last part was composed  in 430 at the Council of Ephesus when the Church condemned the Nestorian heresy that insisted the Blessed Virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus the man, but not the Mother of God.  

Yes,  we Catholics legitimately call Mary, the Mother of God. The Council infallibly declared that Christ is only one Divine Person—the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. This Divine Person took our human nature and joined it to His own Divine nature so that He possesses two natures. St.John 1:1-3, 14. But those natures don’t constitute two different persons, rather they belong to one and the same Person, the divine Son of God. And these two natures cannot and were not ever be separated.

In this light, the Church concluded that not only is it correct to call Mary, the Mother of God; it’s important to do so. Mary conceived and bore in her womb the one Person, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh. If we deny that she is the Mother of God, then we are denying that her Son, Christ Himself, is God, come down from Heaven.  

The Apostolic witness is clear as St.Paul said, “God sent His Son, born of a woman.”

Quoting KFC, reply 62
He is not to be linked with any other human (including his mother). Even HE said himself for us to forsake mother and father for His sake.

This is bull.

Quoting Tova7, reply 61
When I think of Christ though, I tend to focus on my relationship with Him, not his Mama.

 

Yet Christ's first relationship was with His Mother. All these passages focus on that relationship. Jesus honored her by dwelling with her under the same roof at Nazereth for 30 years until He began His public ministry. 

So why don't Protestants honor her when God certainly did by bestowing upon her the highest dignity He could confer--the divine maternity.

I can't understand how Protestants study Scripture and hope to extol the Son of God by making little to nothing of His Blessed Mother!

Instead of detracting from the love of Christ, devotion of Mary increases our love for Him. Love of Mary the masterpiece of God's creation, by its nature leads to the love of Christ, her Son. He loves the love we have for her for every one of her gifts are His own free gifts.

 

Reply #66 Top

kfc POSTS:

He is not to be linked with any other human (including his mother). Even HE said himself for us to forsake mother and father for His sake.

You may read Scripture, but it's statements like this that prove you sure don't understand what it means or the teachings behind it.

You are so intent on putting the Blessed Virgin Mary out of the Gospel picture, that you cut yourself short and miss the true Gospel meaning.

Not only the Blessed Virgin Mary, His Mother, but WE ARE ALL to be linked with, through and in Christ. The Gospels are ABSOLUTELY full of this teaching. 

As far as care for His own and not forsaking our mother, (especially in widowhood which is what the Blessed Mother was....

1Tim. 5:8, But if any man have not care for his own, and especially those of his OWN house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

 

 

 

Reply #67 Top

TOVA posts: 

Quoting Tova7, reply 53
How odd would it be to enter a Catholic church that had no statues of Mary, made no reference to her in prayer?

Why should Catholics make no reference to the Blessed Mother Mary in prayer when Scripture sanctions such prayers? The prayers to Mary are for her motherly intercession for she above all others has entree to Our Dear Lord.

I have just pointed out the Holy Rosary is made up of 2 Heavenly things, the Lord’s Prayer and the Angelic Salutation. How could there be possibly any prayers more pleasing to Almighty God or any that are easier or more precious or more helpful than these two?   

Tova, if it were not for your sincerity as well as the seriousness of the questions you raise, I’d laugh at the idea of the Catholic Church getting along without statues or prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary or anything else the Protestant churches have discarded.

Why some of them get along not only without the Blessed Virgin Mary, but without Jesus as God. Some without baptism, without a Sacrifice, without the Supersubstantial Bread, without Sunday as the Sabbath, without prohibitions against divorce, birth control, homosexuality, the list goes on!

The CC has existed for over 21 centuries with the Blessed Virgin Mary held close to her bosom and she will so continue on until the end of time with her occupying the place in prayer second only to the prayer that is sent directly to the throne of God.

In Acts 1:14, St.Luke makes especial mention of the fact that “Mary, the Mother of Jesus” was present at the first assembly of the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, in “the upper room”. We thank Almighty God, Mary never left that Church, and she never will if the love of Catholics for her will continue her presence there, as it will.

Those churches that repudiate giving special honor to the Virgin Mother are sure to end by repudiating devotion to her Child as the Son of God. KFC has already alluded to it when in response to St.Luke 1:35, she said:

St.Luke 1:35 says She gave birth to God. "And the angel answering said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also, the HOLY which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Quoting KFC, reply 56
also...found out something about 1:35 where is says "Son of God" It is NOT found in many manuscripts. So it's actually a questionable insert to say the least and something a doctrine should NOT be built around.

As if doctrine shouldn’t be built around Jesus, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. The Incarnation is doctrine for those who have and keep the true Christian Faith.

Do you know how the King James Version has translated St. Luke 1:35?

“And the angel answered and said unto her. TH eHoly Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also, that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

That’s right, the faulty KJV has Jesus Christ, the Divine Son of God born of the BLV as “that holy thing”? Unbelievable.  

 

Reply #68 Top

Quoting KFC, reply 44
Jesus himself brought Mary down to perspective when a woman from the crowd dared to start the first inkling of Mary worship (Luke) by shouting out that His mother needs to be recognized for her giving him birth.

Christ did not bring His Mother "down to perspective". If you think so, you offend Christ.

You're talking about St.Luke 11:27-28.

But to get the full meaning we have to read the passage in its full context. Christ was teaching the crowd and the woman was one who heard Him and hadn't been carried away by the criticism voiced against Jesus, rather, she was overpowered by His majesty.

The woman was primarily extolling Him and His mother only for His sake. The praise bestowed on Jesus' mother redounded to the glory of her Son.  But she was referring to physical ties but Christ wanted to take it further. His kingdom goes beyond the concerns and ties of flesh and blood. He wanted to take it to a spriritual sense and declared blessed those who keep the word of God as His Mother had been faithfully doing. St.Luke 2:19; 51.  She had been putting the word of God into practice. It was a compliment to her fiat, "let it be done unto me." 1:38 and her quiet and humble sincerity. 

 

 

 

Reply #69 Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 66
You may read Scripture, but it's statements like this that prove you sure don't understand what it means or the teachings behind it.

You are so intent on putting the Blessed Virgin Mary out of the Gospel picture, that you cut yourself short and miss the true Gospel meaning.
Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 66
1Tim. 5:8, But if any man have not care for his own, and especially those of his OWN house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

It's quite clear Lula.  You don't understand how to exegete Scripture.  You just pull it out willy nilly here and there.  

You take things out of context and insert where it doesn't belong.  

It's hard to have a conversation with you because you're all over the place.  

1 Tim 5:8 has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.  

Believe what you want.  I just want you to know you have been severely deceived as I once was.  Truth always reveals itself.  

Always.  Seek and you will find.  Don't be like those who are forever learning but never coming to the full knowledge of the truth.

Keep reading scriptures.  And pray to Jesus himself to reveal them to you.  That's the best advice I can give you.  

I only want the best for you.  

 

Reply #70 Top

Lula posts:

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 52
It would be a mortal sin for Catholics to adore the Blessed Virgin Mary and put her above God. We don't do that.

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 58
It goes to the First Commandment of God....Catholics must adore and worship only the One and True God. It's a mortal sin for Catholics to adore or worship any human.

KFC posts:

Quoting KFC, reply 62
where does it say this? You still haven't shown me. I want to see this on the Vatican See.

Again, the CC teaches the Ten Commandments must be obeyed. It says it in the First Commandment of Almighty God which all Catholics must obey, otherwise they commit a mortal sin.

The First Commandment requires us to worship and adore God and God alone. We must offer the worship that is due to Him alone.

We worship and adore Jesus Christ becasue He is the Second Person of the BLessed Trinity, True God and True Man at the same. He is True God even as the Father and Holy Ghost. This commandment forbids idolatry and false worship.

 

Quoting KFC, reply 62
You're saying one thing here but saying another every single time you discuss Mary. You have already told us that you adore her and your words show that you do worship her when you elevate her position.

KFC, you were told in plain language that Catholics do not give divine worship or adore the BVM.

I'll say it again. Catholics adore God alone, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. There is no confusion of thought, her doctrines, definitions and dogma in the CC. Catholics the world over have held to a clear cut distinction between adoration-worship given to God alone and love and reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mary. 

We love her and are devoted to her because God honored her above all others by choosing her to be the Mother of His only begotten Son. She receives special honor from Catholics even if Protestants think otherwise. 

The CC calls the supreme adoration due God alone "latria". And the superior honor due to God's servants, the angels and Saints, the Church calls "dulia". The high form of "dulia" given to the Blessed VIrgin Mary is "hyperdulia". Now I know this doesn't mean much to you, but it is the distinction that Catholics live by.

You as you say, go to Jesus directly, but why not go to Mary as well. ONe does not exclude the other. Is not Mary the Mother of Jesus? Is not a pure and devoted Mother more influential than we are with her Son? Doesn't your Bible say that David asked the Saints to give thanks to God for him? then why not ask Mary, the Saint of Saints, to take your petitiions to her dearly beloved Son?

 

Reply #71 Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 70
FC, you were told in plain language that Catholics do not give divine worship or adore the BVM.

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 70
We love her and are devoted to her because God honored her above all others by choosing her to be the Mother of His only begotten Son. She receives special honor from Catholics

and I told you in plain language that what you "say" and what you "do" are two different things.  There's a word for that.  Your obvious devotion and defense of Mary here contradict your words.  By your own words you are condemning yourself.  You say you do not adore her but then you say you are devoted to her?  Huh? (See highlighted)

 

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 70
You as you say, go to Jesus directly, but why not go to Mary as well.

AND THIS JUST PROVES MY POINT!  Why not?  Because Jesus TOLD US NOT TO.  He told us how to pray.  Nowhere in the scriptures are we told to EVER go to anyone BUT HIM.  Why?  Like you even said earlier...1st commandment.  See...you say one thing but DO another.  When you pray to another, it's a form of worship or idolatry.  

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 70
Now I know this doesn't mean much to you, but it is the distinction that Catholics live by.

Show me in the bible where the difference of dulia and hyperdulia exists.  I see worship and non-worship but not classes or distinctions in scripture.  This is another one of your traditions that contradict scripture.  

this is called splitting hairs and trying to defend a indefensible argument. Call it what you want.  It's all dulia.  The average practical person (most Catholics around the world) have no idea what you just said.  You are actually affirming a higher worship of Mary than any other being on this planet.  You are absolutely spitting out RCC dogma and doing a great job.  But you don't really know how deep this really goes.  I go to the Vatican See website.  It's all Mary Idolatry on there.  I don't have to go to any "anti-RCC" sites.  They will be condemned by their own words.  

Christ said about the Pharisees

"the teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat (like the RCC thinks they're sitting in Christ's).  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.  But DO NOT do what THEY DO.  for they DO NOT practice what they preach."    Matt 23:1-3

Jesus never broke the law, but HE DID violate their oral traditions.   I'm doing the same thing with you here.  I'm going after your traditions that actually contradict God's Word.  

I've already shown you where Jesus had the VERY SAME TYPE of argument with the Pharisees as I'm having now with you. You are choosing the viewpoint of the Pharisees rather than the words of Christ.  

 

 

Reply #72 Top

and to prove (there is so much I could be here for weeks!) all this all I have to do is go to the Vatican's library itself.  Tell me this isn't Mary worship??????  This is from Pope Pius IX.  http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm

 

HOPED-FOR RESULTS

Our soul overflows with joy and our tongue with exultation. We give, and we shall continue to give, the humblest and deepest thanks to Jesus Christ, our Lord, because through his singular grace he has granted to us, unworthy though we be, to decree and offer this honor and glory and praise to his most holy Mother. All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin -- in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world; in her who is the most excellent glory, ornament, and impregnable stronghold of the holy Church; in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers. We have, therefore, a very certain hope and complete confidence that the most Blessed Virgin will ensure by her most powerful patronage that all difficulties be removed and all errors dissipated, so that our Holy Mother the Catholic Church may flourish daily more and more throughout all the nations and countries, and may reign "from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth," and may enjoy genuine peace, tranquility and liberty. We are firm in our confidence that she will obtain pardon for the sinner, health for the sick, strength of heart for the weak, consolation for the afflicted, help for those in danger; that she will remove spiritual blindness from all who are in error, so that they may return to the path of truth and justice, and that here may be one flock and one shepherd."

 

OH MY WORD!!!  Do you not see? Wake up before it's too late.    Jesus gets thanks but Mary gets "honor, glory and praise"  Do you realize that this is blasphemy?  Only God is to get honor, glory and praise to this degree.  Do you NOT know this?  Jesus is cast aside, so to speak, in honor of His mother.  

Scripture says "her firstborn son" but here it says "only-begotten Son?"  That's God's "only begotten Son."  This is what I mean by elevating her higher not only than her son but God himself.  Nothing here is scriptural.  Nothing.  It's all RCC dogma.  Traditions.

 

Crushed the head of the serpent?  Are you kidding me?  Christ did that.  Not Mary.  He crushed the serpent's head on the cross.  Mary did not die for our sin.   It's taking all of his work away from him and giving it to Mary.   This is nothing more than conferring Goddess status upon Mary and actually PROVES the whole point of this thread to begin with.  The Mary of the RCC (not of the bible) is non other than Semiramas herself down thru the centuries.  So you are correct, in fact, your Mary of the RCC is indeed the Queen of Heaven.   So I will clarify that point.  The Mary of the NT is NOT Semiramas.  

Here's another example from the Vatican See:  "As maternal Mediatrix, Mary presents our desires and petitions to Christ, and transmits the divine gifts to us, interceding continually on our behalf."    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_24091997_en.html

maternal Mediatrix?  Do you know that scripture is very very very (can I say that again?) clear that there is NO mediator between God and Man but Christ?  This is CLEARLY advocating praying to Mary.  PRAYING IS A FORM OF WORSHIP.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  Even an angel told Daniel and Peter to get up off their knees when they bowed down to worship.  Yet Catholics all over the world are bowing and praying to Mary DAILY!!!!!  This is pagan and goes all the way back to Nimrod which is the basis for this article.  

 

and I thought this was interesting coming from a Nun.  The first thing she said was the truth will set you free.  She was in bondage and has been set free. 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm

 

Reply #73 Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 60
By virtue of the Incarnation, Jesus Christ came to earth and was born of the Virgin Mary. You think of Christ, you think of Mary, and you think of Mary, you think of Christ.

Quoting KFC, reply 62
no, this isn't right Lula.

When I think of Christ I think of no one else. No one else died for my sins but HIM. He stands alone. Only HE is God incarnate.

Quoting KFC, reply 62
no, this isn't right Lula.

Yes, this is right.

There is absolutely nothing WRONG with thinking of both Christ and His Mother Mary most especially by virtue of the Incarnation.

Quoting KFC, reply 62
When I think of Christ I think of no one else.

Ok. That's you.

All I'm saying is that when I think of the Doctrine of the Incarnation which is Christ's First Coming as a newborn Babe, I think of His Mother Mary too. And you say, no this isn't right!!! C'mon.   What is this...Christology according to KFC!!!

Quoting KFC, reply 62
No one else died for my sins but HIM.

True.  But this introduces something different; Here, I wasn't talking about Christ's Death. I began my statement by saying, by virtue of the Incarnation and you reacted saying, no, this isn't right.

Quoting KFC, reply 62
Only HE is God incarnate.

And what is the Mystery of the Incarnation? A unique and marvelous union of the Divine Nature and the Human Nature in the one Person of the Word made Flesh, Jesus Christ.

And who is God Incarnate? Christ. And who is Christ? Christ is God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, existing in the human nature which was born of the Virgin Mary, yet retaining ever His Divine Nature. Christ is therefore God and man at one and the same time. As man, He could die for His fellow human beings; as God He was able to expiate the insult offered to the Divine Majesty, and thus restore to men the possibility of eternal happiness.

The Incarnation could not have happened without the Blessed Virgin Mary’s fiat, “..be it done to me according to thy word.”

So I say it again, By virtue of the Incarnation, Jesus Christ came to earth and was born of the Virgin Mary. You think of Christ, you think of Mary, and you think of Mary, you think of Christ.

If you STILL think my saying this “is not right”, then instead of relying on your own interpretation of Scripture, you need to study more on the Doctrine of the Incarnation by reading the Church Fathers.

Reply #74 Top

Lula

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 60
It would be impossible to never mention the Blessed Mother in prayer for she is a vital part of the true Christian religion. One of Christianity's main doctrines is the Incarnation (which means the Eternal, Almighty, Infinite, Son of God took upon Himself a human nature. Without ceasing to be God , the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity became man at the same time).

By virtue of the Incarnation, Jesus Christ came to earth and was born of the Virgin Mary. You think of Christ, you think of Mary, and you think of Mary, you think of Christ.

KFC

Quoting KFC, reply 62
She IS NOT a vital part of the true Christian religion.

Yes the Blessed Virgin Mary is a vital part of the true Christian religion.  Read the whole thing instead of cherry picking part of one sentence. Notice, I'm talking about the Incarnation here.

The Incarnation is Biblical. The Incarnation is a vital part of the true Christian religion. The Blessed Virgin Mary is 100% involved in the Incarnation so therefore she is indeed a vital part of the true Christian religion. 

Now, the Blessed Virgin Mary may not be a vital part in Protestantism which is not the true Christian religion, but she is indeed a vital part of the true Christian religion. My statement stands.

Reply #75 Top

KFC

Quoting KFC, reply 62
He is not to be linked with any other human (including his mother). Even HE said himself for us to forsake mother and father for His sake.

LULA 

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 66
You may read Scripture, but it's statements like this that prove you sure don't understand what it means or the teachings behind it.

You are so intent on putting the Blessed Virgin Mary out of the Gospel picture, that you cut yourself short and miss the true Gospel meaning.

Not only the Blessed Virgin Mary, His Mother, but WE ARE ALL to be linked with, through and in Christ. The Gospels are ABSOLUTELY full of this teaching.

As far as care for His own and not forsaking our mother, (especially in widowhood which is what the Blessed Mother was....

1Tim. 5:8, "But if any man have not care for his own, and especially those of his OWN house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

KFC posts

Quoting KFC, reply 69


1 Tim 5:8 has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.

Ah, please read it again. 1Tim 5:8 directly refutes your statement that Christ is not to be linked with any other human (including His mother.)

Had He ignored Mary He would not have been a very good Son nor would He have had much respect for God who said, Honor thy Father and Mother.

Christ was a perfect example of all things. He was our model and of course He was linked with other humans! He did indeed care for His own, especially those of his own house, (that would be His Mother Mary whom He lived with for 30 years before His public ministry).

You say Christ is not to be linked with any other human including His Mother Mary, then why did He go to Nazareth and be subject to her? St.Luke 2:51.

You may not like it or agree but that proves Christ was linked with His Mother. It seems you are only concerned with the Risen Christ  but know little about the Child Christ.