Leauki

Join Date 02/2004

+85

A Peace Plan

The United Monarchy

Israel is fine with a two-state solution. Israel is also fine with Gaza and the West-Bank being part of Egypt and Jordan. Israel has been fine with those two solutions when they already came up. I think we can stop worrying about “Zionist extremists” who don’t exist.

I have seen east-Jerusalem. I don’t think Israel wants it. It’s the most holy site of Judaism that Arabs demand and that Israel wants to keep, not the entire city. Let’s divide Jerusalem, Israelis won’t mind. The Jewish parts and the Old City will be part of Israel and the Arab parts in the east can be a part of Invaderland/Palestine. The only problem is that the Arabs in Jerusalem might not want that. Whenever such an option comes up, thousands of them register for Israeli passports. Hm…

Most international proposals ignore the fact why Israel is fighting.The proposals don't even address how they would get all the Jews dead. In fact, the proposals seem to be built to allow them to survive. The world think that that is not a problem? Look at what the PLO and Hamas say about their wishes. They want a Jew-free Invaderland and they have said so often enough. Most peace plans don’t address that issue.

A two-state solution plan has already been implemented, before 1967. And it could have been implemented by treaty in 1968 when Israel offered to give Gaza and the West-Bank back in exchange for peace.

And what about the refugees? The Jewish refugees from Arab countries don’t want to go back, they have nothing to expect but death and torture. But the Arab refugees from Israel, despite all the things they say about Jews, don’t seem to be expecting such a fate and demand a “return” (to lands they have never lived on, given that it has been three generations).

If we accepted the Saudi plan (1967 borders and return of the “refugees”) we would be back in 1948, a situation which caused the Arabs to start the first war. I don’t see how that would be a good solution, unless the “solution” is about giving the Arabs another shot.

I guess the entire thing really depends on the Palestinian Arabs. Vote for a damn government whose priority is making the country viable and not to destroy Israel and it’s done. That’s all it takes.

Perhaps the PLO can do it now.

But do Palestinian Arabs even want this? Is a viable country of their own really important to women who teach their children that committing suicide while killing Jews is a good thing? Is a viable country of their own really important to sons who would rather kill themselves than not kill a Jew?

Here’s my take on a peace plan, and I realise most independent-minded Israelis will disagree with it, but I think it’s a good idea:

1. The King of Jordan is declared King of Israel and officially enters Jerusalem in that capacity.

2. Israel will remain an independent country with its own democratic government, the king will be a figurehead.

3. Israel will annex the West-Bank and Jordan and Israel will form a citizenship-federation in which all Jews born in either country will be Israeli citizens and all Arabs born in either country will be Arab citizens. (We can find solutions for the other nationalities. For example Druzim can become Israelis too. Bedouins can have their own citizenship system or whatever they wish.)

4. Both Jews and Arabs will be subjects of the descendant of the Sharif of Mecca, i.e. the King of Jordan.

5. The king will govern Transjordan directly and Cisjordan (Israel) only through the selected Israeli government. Israel won’t have a president any more, only a “Lieutenant Governour” elected by the Israeli people who represents the country towards the joint monarchy and, representing the king in right of Jerusalem, towards the international community.

6. During his inauguration ceremony the king will refer extensively to the Quran and celebrate the fact that Allah has helped his people return to their land. He will point out how modern Babylonians tried to prevent it and how another Muslim like Cyrus 2500 years wgo was Allah’s tool to make Allah’s will prevail, even when it was done in the most complicated, roundabout way.

7. Israel can keep the border fence until the attacks stop. Israel will keep all the power she currently has and give it up only voluntarily at her own time.

8. Gaza can be part of this union. Israeli and Transjordanian forces can keep the peace as needed.

9. The Golan Heights remain part of Israel. Syria had no part in the war, and deserves no reward for stopping the attacks once Syria knew she was too weak. Syria will be offered a chance to surrender to the united monarchy.

10. As will Lebanon, which if she decides to join, will become an independent duchy lead by three dukes (Shiite, Sunni, Druze) and an archduke (Christian) under the nominal authority of the king.

11. We will then wait for the Arab and Muslim world to condemn Israel for making the descendant of Muhammed king of Jerusalem.

12. At that point the king will make it clear that his ultimate goal is control over ALL THREE holy cities of Islam. We will then work from that starting point. (The point is not to invade “Saudi” Arabia, but to make it absolutely clear that Jerusalem is as negotiable as Mecca, given that it is the other place of worship.)

13. The new United Monarchy, with control over the advanced military technology of Israel's and the Israeli army as well as excellent ties to Europe, the US, and Russia and other important Arab monarchies (Morocco), will become the unquestioned regional superpower. Iran will not be able to compete with the new Arab Empire and the Gulf will become the energy source for the economic powerhouse at the Jordan river.

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This is pretty much what Weizmann and Faisal had in mind when they first made the pact between Zionists and the Hashemites. Let's finally listen to them.

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A bit radical. And I can see the direction it is taking. Still, a muslim world united under the King of Jourdan would be better than the current set up.

I have seen this proposal (not the exact proposal, but similar ones) in the past. ALl have in common a resurgence of the Arabs as a world power. And all include Israel as a willing partner in the partnership. A living viable partner.

But it wont happen. Arabs have lost the initiative to better themselves. Lost at the altar of hate. There is a lesson there, but it wont be learned. I have given up on Mankind being smart enough to learn from history, only force prevents them from repeating it.

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Here’s my take on a peace plan, and I realise most independent-minded Israelis will disagree with it, but I think it’s a good idea

Not that good. better than the Two-state solution ... but my proposal is much simpler and more viable and gets Jordon out of the picture ... Jordon does not represent the Palestenians ... or anything for that matter. It is a made-up entity .... like Kwait ...

I am sure your remember my proposal ... it is on the Canadian Model .... One State (Palestine), three provinces , Israel, Gaza and The West Bank.

As in lebanon, The constitution could specify the identity of the President, Prime Minister, Defense Minister and Interior Minister to balance the power in the new State.

the problem with your idea is that palestenians will never accept Jordon as part of the solution. in fact if you really want to be fair ... jordon was part of old palestine/Israel ... so either leave it as is or just make it part of the larger Palestine .... there was never a nation called Jordon ... Israel and Palestine have their historical roots and history far more than many contemporary nations.

But i am glad that you now realize that the Two-State solution does not satisfy anyone except the outside world ... but not the two main parties.

One State is the way to go.... anyway the two sides agree on I am ok with it. I just think my "proposal for the Holy land" is more to their satisfaction. and much simplere..

see my old blog if you like to read the whole thing.

http://thinkaloud.joeuser.com/article/142414/Proposal_for_the_Holy_Land

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Transjordan was created by the British to keep the Hashemites in power somewhere after the Saudis drove them out of Mecca. It's as artificial as Saudi Arabia. Before its founding as a monarchy it was part of the British territory "Palestine (Land of Israel)" and before that it was part of one or two Turkish provinces.

Palestine as a territory is older, two years older.

However, there is lots of local Arab Palestinian support for a federation with Jordan under the monarchy:

70 prominent Palestinian professors, business leaders, and members of the legislative councils were invited last month to attend a meeting at the port of Aqaba, Jordan. The meeting was initiated by Ex-prime minister Dr. Majali; the main man behind the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty, to discuss the dead peace process in the region and the future political relationship between the upcoming Palestinian state and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The timing of this invitation was very interesting since it was almost 40 years ago that the West Bank and East Jerusalem, fell out of Jordanian hands into Israeli control in the course of the Six-Day War. Surprisingly the idea of a potential confederation between the West Bank and Jordan surfaced again when many members of the Palestinian delegation raised it with the King.

http://gnblog.com/?p=226

Such a federation including Israel would also finish the project the Hashemites and Zionists started in 1919, before the unfortunate interruption due to (non-monarchical) Arab fascism:

The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement

If we go back to that point, we can forget the entire sad history and all the wars fought between Israel and Arabs will have changed nothing except guarantee the survival of the Jews. All border disputes would be erased, Jewish settlers would be legitimised, Arab claims to property in Israel could be handled according to Turkish/British/Israeli/Jordanian law as required, and everyone would have a proud way out.

The federation of Israel and Transjordan would consist of two countries (Israel and Transjordan) and five nationalities (Jewish, Arab, Armenian, Circassian, and Druze). Apart from the two titular nationalities all nationalities can choose for themselves which country they will be citizens of (Israel, Transjordan, or depending on location). This will guarantee a special privilege for minority groups (they can decide where to vote on an individual basis, details will have to be worked out).

There could be a process for further countries to join, which would include the following requirements:

1. At least one of the candidate country's official languages must be Hebrew or Arabic.

2. The candidate country must accept the Hashemite King as its head of state.

3. The candidate country must guarantee freedom of religion.

4. The candidate country must border an existing member country or a country bordering an existing member country.

5. The candidate country must have a historical connection to Islam or Judaism.

For example, Iraqi Kurdistan could join if it keeps Arabic as an official language and accepts the King as nominal head of state. Iraqi Kurdistan already guarantees freedom of religion, has an acceptable location, and has a historical connection to both Islam and Judaism.

The Arabic language will serve as a connecting language for diplomacy and trade. (Hebrew is mentioned so that Israel itself can join.) Other local languages spoken by the many non-Arab peoples will be elevated to regional official languages as long as each member country itself agrees to use Arabic for diplomatic purposes. Arabic will also be taught at schools.

The pagan name "Palestine" would vanish with the founding of the federation.

Each country will be represented in Amman by a special ambassador-senator and each nationality will also be represented by a senator. So in the beginning the senate advising the King on federal matters will consist of two ambassador-senators and five nationality-senators. All normal matters of state including treaties within the federation will be handled by each country's own parliament or government.

Note that if Lebanon should join, the Maronites will be free to decide whether they are Arabs or Phoenicians, and the Druze of Lebanon will become part of the Druze nationality. They will remain Lebanese citizens. The Lebanese currently living in Israel will also remain Lebanese citizens (not Transjordanian citizens).

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Dream on.

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Truth is anything that does not include the death of all the Jews or the complete removal of all Jews from Israel will not be accepted. that's the long and short of it.

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I agree with MM 100% A negotiated settlement between the Israelis and Arabs of the region isn't possible. From all indications, the Arabs will only be satisfied when all the Jews are driven into the Mediterranean.

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

+4564

Well, at least a few folks have it right.

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Leauki,

If I were Israel, I would be sick of those jerks rocketing the city at will anyway. I wish Israel could just received the entire inheritance that bible speaks of, ya know. I am pretty sure that the Jewish nation can take most anybody around em! GO ISRAEL!

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Truth is anything that does not include the death of all the Jews or the complete removal of all Jews from Israel will not be accepted. that's the long and short of it.

Absolutley but the truth of the matter is it's never gonna happen. God is protecting the Jews and will continue to do so to the end. It's the same old story repeated and repeated for centuries yet here we are, Jews are still here. They are not going anywhere no matter how hard the extermination. The Jews always end up as pall bearers at their enemies' funerals.

I've been saying here on JU for the past three years this stuff was going to happen. Keep your eyes open for the "Savior" who will "save the day" with his peace treaty....... possibly a "seven year peace treaty." When that comes forth, pack your bags and find a good hiding spot.

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I agree with MM 100% A negotiated settlement between the Israelis and Arabs of the region isn't possible.

I disagree. I have faith.

I have met many Arabs and Muslims who are not only willing to live with Israel but who actively support the country.

The Druzim and Bedouins fighting for Israel are concept proof. But they need our help. They need us to acknowledge them. King Abdullah's great grand father made a pact with the Zionists. He didn't do it because he wanted the Jews dead.

Remember the Shoah. And compare it to Germany today. Things change.

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God is protecting the Jews and will continue to do so to the end.

You are right and it is remarkable.

So many missile and mortar attacks and so few victims on the Israeli side. Muslim extremists like to say that everything is Allah's will, but they have a hard time understanding why their attacks are becoming less and less effective. What is Allah doing?

May G-d continue to protect the Jews of Israel and their Bedouin, Druze, and Arab allies!

And may He help Hamas realise that the only way to peace is not to fight.

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its more likely because the Hamas relies on Allah to win the war and Isreal relies on a modern army.

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its more likely because the Hamas relies on Allah to win the war and Isreal relies on a modern army.

In my experience "Allah" tends to be on the side of the modern army.

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A modern army, incidentally, in no way guarantees that two dozen school children just happen to be outside the school building when it is hit by an exploding rocket.

And I don't think that Hamas really believe that Allah is on their side. Hamas are cynics.

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Hamas is nothing but terroist that im sure the palistinian people would love no better to get rid of... once hamas is surpressed I am sure that area can be somewhat peacefull... but until then...

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Hamas is nothing but terrorist that im sure the palistinian people would love no better to get rid of

Yes.

But realise that the west is not making this easy. Help for Palestinian Arabs depends much on how loudly they complain about the Israelis. No European country gives a lot of aid to oppressed peoples just because they are oppressed.

I don't think Palestinian Arabs can afford to welcome the Israelis. The Arab countries and Europe would just not send any help and Gaza would depend solely on Israel's good will. (Notice that neither Europe nor the Arabs cared when Hamas murdered hundreds in Gaza two years ago.)

Notice that Europe has actually increased the help given to the Palestinian Authority after Hamas won the elections. And peaceful Arab groups are not even on Europe's (or America's) radar. You cannot make money from Europe or the Arab League by promoting peace and co-existence.

Palestinian Arabs are between a rock and a hard place. When they get closer to peace with Israel, Europe and the Arab League send less money. (And obviously money flow from Iran stops completely.)

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Leuki wrote:

I disagree. I have faith.

I have met many Arabs and Muslims who are not only willing to live with Israel but who actively support the country.

The Druzim and Bedouins fighting for Israel are concept proof. But they need our help. They need us to acknowledge them. King Abdullah's great grand father made a pact with the Zionists. He didn't do it because he wanted the Jews dead.

Remember the Shoah. And compare it to Germany today. Things change.

I wish I thought such "change" was realistic. I really do.

I find the following article

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html

expresses the reasons why more cogently than anywhere else I've seen.

BTW, nice blog. I've lurked here now and then for some time.

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I wish I thought such "change" was realistic. I really do.

I have seen such change happening in Iraq.

I find the following article

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html

expresses the reasons why more cogently than anywhere else I've seen.

The article is badly researched and the author doesn't seem to know much about Islam or comparative religion.

See the articles I have written about Muslim support for Israel. Their support is based on the Quran. The original meme regarding Israel propagated by Islam was that Israel is the Jewish home land. That is why Saladin called on Jews to come back as their exile was over and that is why the Quran contains an entire Sura (17) explaining the concept.

Want to know what the Quran says about Arabs? Here is an example:

The Arabs are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger. But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

9.97

And about Israel:

To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!

So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.

And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

17.101-104

You see, you can read the Quran in different ways, and traditionally Muslims read it rather differently today.

Also note that Quranic Arabic is not a uniting language. Nobody speaks it, few people can read it, the majority of Muslims don't even understand modern Arabic. The most anti-Israel "Muslims" are Iranian Shiites, followers of Khomeini. They speak Iranian languages and hardly ever read the Quran.

Muhammed said that the Quran must be read in Arabic and that translations are mere interpretations. He had a point. But the problem is that now all Muslims are reading the Quran in Arabic and don't know what it means.

The Quran itself speaks of "Arabic" as the language people understand, and that's why the Quran was "revealed" in Arabic. The original idea was that people would understand the Arabic, not that they wouldn't.

BTW, nice blog. I've lurked here now and then for some time.

Thanks.

You might enjoy my home page also: http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Home/About_Me.html

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