Make magic the main 'tech'

Screenshots make it look like there are two types of research:

non-magical research and magical research, which are likely independent of each other.  This is not a bad idea.

I would prefer if traditional technology didn’t receive the short end of the stick and both the normal tech and magic tech were extensively worked out. I fail to see how this would be an effective solution to your turn X = calendar problem. Both have an important place in Elemental and I don’t think designing the tech system to heavily favor magic over normal tech would accomplish much save for watering down the tech system as a whole. Of course having more details on how the magic and tech system in Elemental actually work would make this easier. 

Its true.  I've said it before and I'll say it again. 

That being said, I agree that those two things should be about balanced in terms of time spent in game play.  We have all this army customization, but what about our channelers right?   What is the 'magic' part of our war of magic? I'm sad we have heard so little about it (though I'm greatful we've heard so much about the units, which really isn't that much come to think of it).

Two different tech trees would be pretty cool.  I'd imagine the magic tech-tree to be based on the channeler you use where the tech tech-tree would be faction based (or maybe the other way around?   Being Fallen or not might have an effect based on their description.

A solution for the X turns=invention system:

You have a chance, depending on population, education system and "misc" (specific activities such as battles, mining facilities etc.) to discover a new tech. If you share borders with a kingdom with a tech you don't have, you have a higher chance to get it per turn. Specific, "hard to get" techs might open up "easier to get" techs, which might lead to finding a lot of techs in a small period of time.

Please note that the techs you discover are chosen from a "hidden" tree, and you don't have any say in the matter besides which facilities you create for your citizens.

The system I described is based on our own world: In very few cases the real inventions and discoveries over the history were made by a ruler that told it's people something like "I need a new weapon. Make me a bow that can shoot fire." Instead, the discoveries were made by either simple man that noticed their surroundings better than others, or places that research a wide arrey of phenomonas in hope to discover new things.

I don't want the magic or tech tree to overshadow the other, in general. However I think each should have its own areas where they shine. Magic, for example, would overshadow technology when it comes to large-scale destruction (just as one example), while technology could be responsible for having a strong foundation of resource supply. By that I mean magic could be used to increase resource supply as a percentage - so that if you've neglected the relevant technology throwing magic at the situation isn't going to all of a sudden cause extra resources to come flooding in. On the other hand if you've done a lot of research into mining, it'll boost your base level of mined resources, which also happens to mean that your magic bonus will also be higher.

If Stardock can manage to balance the two trees so they work in tandem, and not in competition, that would be ideal imo.

@Raledon: we had a loong discussion on that very topic in this thread. The general concensus in the end was that a completely hidden tree would probably piss off more people than it would satisfy, but that adding in some randomness and/or blindness would be mostly well-recieved (at least based on the people who posted in that thread - not statistically rigorous, I know). If you're interested in the topic, I'd suggest reading through that thread.

I like this idea.

I didn't think my semi-idea would be a full 'solution,' not least because the 'problem' is mostly about aesthetics (the 5th X) and not mechanics. I'm just wondering if the game might have a stronger fantasy flavor if it de-emphasized the mundane crafts. Frankly, I'm still not happy seeing the term "tech tree" used in the Elemental context even though I accept it as necessary shorthand for a pre-alpha forum crowd. Most people have a modern response to the phoneme "tech," even though the word has Greek roots that are profoundly pre-scientific.

But the responses from landisaurs and pigeonX2 make me suspect I'm on to something. They both seem to view mundane and magical as competitors. I think of them as interdependent systems with no inherent need for equal degrees of complexity, sort of like how your brain cells can't function without mitochondria but mitochondria need never handle anything as complex as a neural network. Both are profoundly relevant, but one is far simpler than the other.

Hmm, interesting I don’t personally see technology as magic’s antithesis or vice versa. Although you could make an argument for them complimenting each other or opposing each other in terms of game-play. Given Elementals focus on magic I doubt the implementation of tech and magic will be opposing in nature (although an Ironman vs. Dr. Strange type battle would be insanely awesome). I suspect that magic and tech will be fairly well intertwined with both being able to function independently in certain areas but would typically work in unison.  

 As for the totally blind research I don’t think that would be very fun or make much sense. As Pigeonpigeon pointed out however I don’t think most people would be opposed to setting a general direction then getting results within some defined area.

I think you misunderstood my post... I want magic and technology in Elemental to be complimentary. And I don't think that having technology and magic being on roughly the same level will reduce from the fantasy feel. An example is Age of Mythology. The magic in that game did overshadow the more mundane technologies, but mostly in the form of extremely powerful magical units - which is similar to the impression I get of how magical beings will function in Elemental (except that they'll be rarer but stronger). But for example in Age of Mythology you'd be at a major disadvantage if you ignored the resource-related techs and armor/weapon upgrade techs. It's a different kind of game (RTS), yes, but I think it's a good example of a game where magic and technology share a fairly equal footing without losing the fantasy feel.

Basically, I want lots of spells and lots of technology. I also want Stardock to provide bodies for elfies and dwarfies.

They should also provide at least one body of each gender to enable outfitting troops. (E.g. amazons).

pigeonpigeon, thanks for helping me dig into my twitch here. So far, I think we're in a comfortable disagreement. At the moment, I still feel that if my time spent in the Knowledge UIs of the game is roughly equally split between mundane crafts and magic, I'll be a bit disappointed, but I'll surely get over it.

I think my main flavor concern is that having a large number of mundane advances during a long game will just make it feel too much like Civ with magic tacked on, and not a "war of magic." I'd be quite happy if the mundane trees had just three basic steps for each branch, Early Iron Age, Middle Iron Age, and Late Iron Age. And I really hope we won't see any chemically-powered artillery or hand weapons.

While you're obviously entitled to your opinion, I think that your fears are largely due to the fact that we've never really seen a 4X game that uses both magic and technology. We know that magic will be capable of changing the whole world and that a lone channeler can (depending on playstyle) take on whole armies by themselves. I sincerely doubt that any technology will be capable of the same (at least I hope not). So long as magic isn't a scarce resource that we have to constantly worry about running out of, I don't think there's any chance of magic just feeling like it's been 'tacked on.'

We've already had confirmation from Frogboy that there will be no gunpowder or anything. I can't remember which thread it was in, though. But I definitely agree - that would be going way too far with technology.