Gazing Gazing

Caster units

Caster units

Elemental is a fantasy-themed strategy game. As such, I expect units to not only use brute force, but also to use magic. The idea was implemented both in MoM and in HoM&M (Heroes of Might & Magic). Neither of them did it well. My idea goes like this:

I want to train mages (magicians) to bolster my army. For that, I need a high level specialized infrastracture (wizard guild). This is both simple and common. The hard part comes when implementing said casters in combat situations, where you want them to actualy behave like casters and not like archers.

Bad example, MoM's mages: unit of either 4 or 6 individuals (depands on race), have a specific attack power (depands on experiance) and have a one-time spell (very weak fireball). These guys are just over powered mages (they don't get to-hit penalties from range)

Decent example, HoM&M4 Efreet: have a small mana pull and small fire-based spell repertuire. This is good for a half-caster, but it's not a mage. It's annoying that HoM&M doesn't have multi-porpuse caster units.

Ideal: I train my mages to be able to use specific spells (same as I train cavalry to charge or pikemen to hold formation), then in combat, I can order them individualy to cast specific spells, or to order a group to cast a single spell together.

For example, I would like a single mage to hold an anti-arrows barrier while the other four are busy summoning a fire elemental. When they finish this, I want to be able to tell two of them to cast a defensive spell on my infantry while the other three are trying to hold off the enemy's cavalry with a firewall.

These casters should be a standard mid to end-game unit. They should have a decent amount of mana (I.E. ammunition), enough to cast at least a few spells, and also to have some way to regenerate mana during really long fights. This kind of unit has incredible potential at the hands of a skilled/creative player, and hey, what's more fun than watching your battle-mages torch an enemy unit with fireballs?

26,568 views 39 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 25

Except that this is before the cataclysm, so it could still go either way... But frankly I'll be disappointed if, in a game subtitled "War of Magic", only channelers, heroes and some beasts can actually use magic, even if on massive scales.
They chose it because it sounds cheesy.

:P

Reply #27 Top

Except that this is before the cataclysm, so it could still go either way... But frankly I'll be disappointed if, in a game subtitled "War of Magic", only channelers, heroes and some beasts can actually use magic, even if on massive scales.

yeah, but they channelers existed before the cataclysm as well according to one of the responces from frogboy in the 1st part.   so there is still a difference before it.   Battle mages and channelers exist at the same time....    result is battle mages must be a thing that are different from channelers.  I'd think that means they are different and can be trained seperatly.

So now caster units are pretty much confirmed now.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 2

Except that this is before the cataclysm, so it could still go either way... But frankly I'll be disappointed if, in a game subtitled "War of Magic", only channelers, heroes and some beasts can actually use magic, even if on massive scales.
yeah, but they channelers existed before the cataclysm as well according to one of the responces from frogboy in the 1st part.   so there is still a difference before it.   Battle mages and channelers exist at the same time....    result is battle mages must be a thing that are different from channelers.  I'd think that means they are different and can be trained seperatly.

So now caster units are pretty much confirmed now.

I kind of assumed that Frogboy made an error/typo in that reply... If channelers started to be born just before the cataclysm, then why have they only just begun doing anything when the game starts, long after the cataclysm? I figured he meant that the channelers started to be born just before the beginning of the game. Of course maybe I should just take him at his word :P

I'm still skeptical that caster units will be as accessible as I want them to be, and will remain that way until and unless we're given more info on the topic.

Reply #29 Top

I'm still skeptical that caster units will be as accessible as I want them to be, and will remain that way until and unless we're given more info on the topic.

I just couldn't believe they wouldn't be available at least to the amount they are in MoM (people with a ranged attack that happens to be magical with a 1 time per battle spell they can throw).    I mean, that might mean that the channeler must spend a point of essence or mana or something every turn to 'train' them, but I am sure they will exist.

I mean they were spell casters in MoM just like the main wizard was... but the main wizard was the only one called a "wizard", everybody else is called 'shamans' or 'priests' or 'magician' or whatever (not wizard).   the difference here is SD isn't calling the main guy a 'wizard' he's being called a channeler.

If channelers started to be born just before the cataclysm, then why have they only just begun doing anything when the game starts, long after the cataclysm?

we don't actually know how long it was.  I guess it would take a few months or something to gather together all the survivors enough to really start the rebuilding process.

Reply #30 Top

It's worth considering that the lack of dev response in this thread might indicate that the question is still open from a design POV.

I admit that might seem like a conspiracy-theorist take on the comparative lack of details on 'magical' mechanics vs. 'mundane' ones. I'm just sayin'...

Reply #31 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 4
I mean they were spell casters in MoM just like the main wizard was... but the main wizard was the only one called a "wizard", everybody else is called 'shamans' or 'priests' or 'magician' or whatever (not wizard).   the difference here is SD isn't calling the main guy a 'wizard' he's being called a channeler.

But this is Elemental, not MoM. The story and lore is different, and the game will be different. It may be a spiritual successor to MoM, but it will not be MoM, not even MoM 2. Just because something was in MoM doesn't mean it will be, or should be, in Elemental (that said I hope accessible non-channeler casters are in).

Quoting landisaurus, reply 4
we don't actually know how long it was.  I assume it would take a few months or something to gather together all the survivors enough to really start the rebuilding process.

Well, there couldn't be any channelers until the crystals that bound up the magic of the world were created. So if channelers started to be born when the crystals were created then I guess it'd make sense that the game would be dealing with the first generation of channelers, not long after the cataclysm occurs...

That said I'd like the story more if there were a longer gap. For one, if the game occurs well within a lifetime of the cataclysm then the history of the world and of what happened would be very well known. There would be no sense of mystery. And I think fantasy worlds benefit from significant portions of the history being hidden or shrouded, at least to most people. Obviously I'm not the one writing the story, so it's not up to me... But if it were, I'd definitely go for a significant lapse in time between the cataclysm and the rise of the channelers.

Reply #32 Top

conspiracy is right.   I say that the options are open and I cannot imagine based on what they want to have (fully customizable units) that they would close the doors on spell casters.   If we assume anything, since they haven't confirmed anything, we should be assuming its cut and paste maste of magic with different back story until the devs tell us otherwise.

We know its basically master of magic + X-com...    that is the starting overview of mechanics we have.   I'm pretty sure they even gave use magic users as an example unit somewhere else.

Well, there couldn't be any channelers until the crystals that bound up the magic of the world were created. So if channelers started to be born when the crystals were created then I guess it'd make sense that the game would be dealing with the first generation of channelers, not long after the cataclysm occurs... 

I asked when I was reading the dev journal, because I thought the same thing you did.  he confirmed that they DID exist before that.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 7
I asked when I was reading the dev journal, because I thought the same thing you did.  he confirmed that they DID exist before that.

Did you ask him in PMs or something? Because the post where Frogboy made the post in question is the last post he made in that thread, and I don't recall every seeing a followup. Am I missing something?

Reply #34 Top

No, you're right PigeonX2.  it wasn't frogboy, it was Draginol (who dispite not being labeled 'stardock' I'm pretty sure works there.  He obviously has the inside info if you look at his other posts throughout stardock forums.)

Quoting Draginol, reply 17
Not everyone died during the Cataclysm (obviously or there'd be no game! <g>).

There were a lot more channelers before the cataclysm than now though.

Reply #35 Top

I would love to see caster units other then the players and heroes but the game world (Lore) does not seem to support this.

I like options, cheap 'firepower' squads of Combat Mages that are just overpowered archers, Priests that can Heal and Bless, Magi that have a small spellbook (Expensive and fragile mini-Heroes) would all be nice.  If I can lower the cost of the Magi by giving them only 2 spells each and having each one have a single task and then Nuking then I might rather that for large armies.  For small hit and run strikes a more expensive Magi with more options would be cool.  I just don't see any 'units' other then Heroes being able to cast spells (All magic comes from you).

Sammual

Reply #36 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 9
No, you're right PigeonX2.  it wasn't frogboy, it was Draginol (who dispite not being labeled 'stardock' I'm pretty sure works there.  He obviously has the inside info if you look at his other posts throughout stardock forums.)

 

Frogboy / Brad / Draginol are the same person, yet another sign of the power of the frog! 

Sammual

All hail the frog! :frogboy:

Reply #37 Top

I like options, cheap 'firepower' squads of Combat Mages that are just overpowered archers, Priests that can Heal and Bless, Magi that have a small spellbook (Expensive and fragile mini-Heroes) would all be nice. If I can lower the cost of the Magi by giving them only 2 spells each and having each one have a single task and then Nuking then I might rather that for large armies. For small hit and run strikes a more expensive Magi with more options would be cool. I just don't see any 'units' other then Heroes being able to cast spells (All magic comes from you).

Thats how I see it being mainly available.   Since you add abilities per-feature, you'd have to add a laundry list of spells to the character for them to have a large spellbook.

I wonder if there will be a training thing... like insteading of adding a sword or adding a spell to the spellbook, you just add "more hitpoints", or "More mana", or "general training" (which would increase several stats) so that way your swordsmen coming the super-training grounds or spell casters that come from the super-magic school (whichever building would be similar) would be better than the regular bums from early game that have the same gear/spells.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 9
No, you're right PigeonX2.  it wasn't frogboy, it was Draginol (who dispite not being labeled 'stardock' I'm pretty sure works there.  He obviously has the inside info if you look at his other posts throughout stardock forums.)

Oh I totally missed that post. And yeah Draginol = Frogboy, so that's a rock solid confirmation. Still, there's a chance that non-channeler magicians may have lost their magical abilities once the magic was bound up into the crystals... but I guess we won't know details until later. But this new information makes me a little more optimistic about the accessibility of 'regular' magic users.

Reply #39 Top

Oh I totally missed that post. And yeah Draginol = Frogboy, so that's a rock solid confirmation. Still, there's a chance that non-channeler magicians may have lost their magical abilities once the magic was bound up into the crystals...

well, thats another thing.  In the backstory given in the journals it said they are bound up in a giant crystal before too.  So nothing has changed there (except I suspect that giant crystal exploded or something.  It would explains the 'shards' of it being all randomly scattered about chaos emerald style)