Denryu Denryu

How do you feel about potentially "game unbalancing" random events?

How do you feel about potentially "game unbalancing" random events?

When playing Civilization 1-4, one of the best (IMHO) things that could happen in the early game was for a village to join you or to get an extra settler. This early boost would make the rest of the game a breeze - usually.

So how do you feel about these type of events, where in the very early game a very positive event can make the game a cakewalk, or a very negative event could be insurmountable? There is definitely a tradeoff, because like I said, when one of these happened in my favor you jsut want to fist-pump and do a happy dance. But it did make the rest of the game kind of anticlimactic.

Should events like this only be allowed in single player, should they be possible in muliplayer, or not at all?

Should random events scale so that in the early game only small events that are neither instant victory or defeat are allowed, but then in the later game things like a neutral village joining you or other bigger events become possible?

What kind of random events do you foresee or want to see for E:WOM, and what stage of the game should they start to happen?

(GalCivII seems to not have much of this kind of thing imo)

31,769 views 41 replies
Reply #26 Top

My option: annex/assimilate them into your civ. +3 to starting population.

but you wouldn't want it to be completely busted.  So maybe it will start with a building in queue 'assimilation' that takes like say 5 turns to complete as you teach them your ways and how to function as part of your society.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 1

My option: annex/assimilate them into your civ. +3 to starting population.
but you wouldn't want it to be completely busted.  So maybe it will start with a building in queue 'assimilation' that takes like say 5 turns to complete as you teach them your ways and how to function as part of your society.

Or something like that. Couldn't think on a good counter at the time.

My point is, limited option isn't a good idea, and should be limited to only minor events. Bigger events should be open ended, like a sentient megabeast appearing. You can interact with it through diplomacy, commerce and force (or do nothing about it). These interactions offer you additional options to choose from. The golden rule should be that you shouldn't force the player to choose an option he doesn't like, and give him as much possible room to be creative in.

Reply #29 Top

I think an excellent example of a massive random event that affects all players (Human/AI) is one that was included in the Fall From Heaven II mod for Civ IV. Can't remember what it was called but it was introduced beautifully, something about all civs struggling to exist and that only hte strong of each civ would survive. Basically all farms,plantations (but not mines or workshops/windmills) were wiped from the map and therefore all large cities suffered a falloff in pop. Very well done, caught me by surprise and loved playing through it. What i'm trying to say is that random events would be cool as long as you *know* that all players will suffer equally from whatever it is.

That is Blight and it's not a random event. It happens whenever the Armageddon Counter hits a certain point (the developer keeps using patches to change the exact number the AC needs to reach.)

Blight is a cool mega-event precisely because it is not random. It has a set requirement, one that you have control over. If you don't want to bother with blight, found ashen veil yourself so you have control over its spread and sit on it, stifle its spread, so that no one adopts it. If a neighbor founds AV and/or builds the prophecy of ragnarok, build an army, kick the shit out of him and raze his cities. If Blight's mechanism were "roll a dice each turn to see if it happens", it would be retarded, even if there were some requirement like "the dice rolling starts at a certain turn".

Here is an example of how not to do mega-events: Sword of the Stars. In that game, at the end of every turn past turn 99, it checks to see if any combat happened that turn. If not, there is a 2% chance for a grand menace - one of 3 incredibly powerful spaceships that goes around glassing planets - to spawn at a random location. Everything is wrong with this mechanic. Let's see:

-The spawning is random unless you go out of your way to pick tiny, meaningless fights every turn.

-They can only hit one civ at a time, except for the locust fleetworld, which can only hit one civ at a time at first but can self-replicate once it's eaten (literally) enough planets.

-The first point at which they can start showing up is at a time when no civ will possibly have anything that can stop them. There's also a chance that they won't spawn till the antimatter era, when civs might have powerful enough toys to pound a grand menace like a midget inmate's asshole. But...

-The tech trees are largely randomized. Maybe 30% of the techs have a 100% chance to show up in any given game. The rest, including all the really mean weapons and tough shields, require a dice roll. These rolls are all made at the beginning of any given game, so no save scumming to circumvent them. As it comes to civs fighting each other this works out fine, since there's a large enough variety of well-balanced weapons, shields and armors that there is pretty much always SOMETHING effective that you can field. However, they aren't well balanced vs. GMs. GMs have very specific counters that are needed to best them, one which no civ is guarenteed to get. (Liir and Morrigi are close to guaranteed, but that makes it all the more infuriating when they fail the appropriate tech roll on a 10% chance or whatever.)

So you have a random chance to smash the living fuck out of 1 or 2 randomly picked civs while all the others kick back and laugh, and how bad the damage is is also heavily RNG based (due to tech rolls and the time of spawn.) Stupid, stupid, stpuid. Here's hoping Elemental stays away from that kind of crap.

Reply #30 Top

Space Empires 5 had a nice system.  You can choose a level of maximum severity and how often they will occur.  In bullet form...

MAximum Seveirty of Event

  • Minor - Small events that dont have much impact.  It makes you feel good or is a minor irritation.
    • Squires find an abandoned sack of gold in the local storehouse.  +10 Gold!
    • Infestation of rats in the Granary of Whitefall.  -10 Food!
  • Moderate - Events that can have a decent impact on the game, but nothing that could break the experience.
    • While exploring a local forest, a Ranger appears and offers his services for free.
    • An explosion occured during routine spell experimentation.  Whitefall's Library has been destroyed!
  • Major - These events are NOT to be taken lightly.  Early on, they can make or break a game.  Later, however, they can still add some powerful effects.
    • A Dragon has become curious about your people and decided to pay you a visit.  Liking you, he decided to join your cause!
    • Our sages have began to detect magical energies forming underneath Whitefall.  IT has been estimated an explosion will occur in [10 turns] that will destroy the city!
    • WHile exploring a forgotten grove, one of your scouts triggered an ancient trap.  An anti-magical barrier has covered the land!  All magical effects have been disabled and all magical creatures have fallen into a deep trance.
  • Ludicrious - These events will rock your world, so to speak.
    • Coming form another Dimension, an Army of Angels has appeared seeking to advance your cause!
    • Magical energies from the Cataclysm have erupted from beneath the planet.  A volcano has erupted, destroying countless lives and lands!
    • While experimenting with a new spell, a Wizard triggered an ancient magical energy that has stopped all magic in the lands!  All magical creatures die, all magical effects are removed forever, all research has been lost.

Occurance of Event

  • Never - Random events do not happen.  Ever.
  • Rarely - Every turn has a small percentage to trigger an event 1% chance a turn.
  • Sometimes - Events happen every once in a while, but are not common.  5% chance a turn.
  • Often - Events are happening left and right!  THe world is a turbulent and random place.  10% chance a turn.

Just a basic outline of many possible events.  Maybe every race should have a luck rating that could increase or decrease certain percentages.  Beneficial\Neutral\Malign events could happen, all 33%\33%\33% as a base.  Getting good or back luck could increase a certain attricute, as well as certain abilities.

A Bad Star - Unit Ability - Whenever unit wins combat against an enemy nation, that nation becomes more unlucky.

Lucky Clover - Unit Item - Increases luck of unit's nation.

Again, hope I'm not copying.  THanks!

Reply #31 Top

Quoting loialarent, reply 5
[...]
While experimenting with a new spell, a Wizard triggered an ancient magical energy that has stopped all magic in the lands! All magical creatures die, all magical effects are removed forever, all research has been lost.
[...]
While I like random events overall, don't you feel that even at a "Ludicrious" level of effect, that'd be a bit game-breaking? After all, you'd completely remove an integral aspect of the game.

:p

I love the premise, though. I could see a Karsus Event as something potentially devestating and overall hilarious. All magical creatures are destroyed, research is set back and stopped, no-one can cast spells and all shards become dormant for the duration.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 6



Quoting loialarent,
reply 5
[...]
While experimenting with a new spell, a Wizard triggered an ancient magical energy that has stopped all magic in the lands! All magical creatures die, all magical effects are removed forever, all research has been lost.
[...]While I like random events overall, don't you feel that even at a "Ludicrious" level of effect, that'd be a bit game-breaking? After all, you'd completely remove an integral aspect of the game.




I love the premise, though. I could see a Karsus Event as something potentially devestating and overall hilarious. All magical creatures are destroyed, research is set back and stopped, no-one can cast spells and all shards become dormant for the duration.

Oh, sorry.  I should have clarified.  It is a large scale event and it more or less just stops magic for a couple of turns and you lose just current research.  All magical creatures die, yes, but its meant to really be ludicrious in nature.  And its MORE unbiased towards the players.  But it is a little powerful.  I was playing space empires 5 when my star exploded.  Yeah, 8 planets boom...but i think it could potentially be fun.  Im the kind of guy who would play with moderate, rare or something, haha.

Reply #33 Top

I have cast post-necromancy to bring about a new idea.    What about global events that call for actions upon which players can vote on how to respond, but the responce is the responce of the whole world.

 

For example:   (idea here is based upon the conference here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwhIDTRBdA4 and also seen in the "united nations" thread)

Say a random event occurs like the random event like disjunction or something (all over land maps are broken, maybe all summon monsters disappear) but there is enough time to stop it.  So the channelers of the world(s) are summoned together to take a vote how to handle it.   For the cost of 50% of all mana income for 5 turns (or something like that) the threads of magic could be held stable until the calm normal returns and the disjunction would never occur.  However if not the entire world agrees then the disjunction would occur and all over land spells would be sundered and summoned creatures unsummoned. 

 

Another example might be there is a group of outlaws forming that might try to overthrow some governments.  (like the jagged knife in Gal Civ 2)  But there is still time to stop this from coming together if there is immidiate action.  Experianced soldiers need to lead a world-wide search for the masterminds behind this and stop it before it can get out of control. If 10 (some arbitrary number) vetran units are sacrificed (you get to keep their gear, so they I guess just convert to regular level 1 guys) then they will potrol the world (maybe setup an HQ somewhere that has their own special features) and the fantasy-jagged knife will not be able to take x-towns from anybody.  If enough man-power is not found to be able to put down these terrorists, then several cities aronud the world will go neutral (like in Gal Civ 2) as a new mini-faction.   Wizards would have to agree and supply the troops for it.  It would be like a vote, except then they would also be forced to pick which troops they are going to send (there would be a pool that showed them all, as well as the responces of other players like "bagh, no time for this" or "I've sent all I can" if they close the box that lets you add more units)   > not being willing to send at least 1 unit also could make you more likely that one of your towns will be hit by the revolt.

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Reply #34 Top

Potentially game unbalacing events maybe optional, it's hard to think of it in other way. It can be fun but also without it at all can be fun too, in cases when they don't want anything else then abilities to interfere. But I'd enjoy more, events that you could defend from (at least a bit) instead o the ones you can do nothing about but suffer from. Like a earthquake would happen in the land but you could have made stronger structures or choose another place in the case that could come, while the one who didnt bothered would take the full effect from it.

Maybe events that, with the game enviroment being more alive, would pass small signals of those to come if at that place. Things like a death horde making it's way to the other side and taking anything in the way with them, or an dragon atack to a province too close to it's sleep cave. Small earth shakings would alert of a possible earthquake to the player with more attention or the one that explored more, and would benefit from information. Maybe signals the player could look for if worried about it has to guarantee the safety of said valuable province, to find out about an event and it's place or exetent. To do some exploring for good places to rize a city.

But, luck events, that just happen because they do seems harsh to me. You are there micromaging your stuff and that colored dragon just decides to weake and put your Kingdom/Empire into flames by random seems harsh. I think you should be able to couple with that in some way and maybe be able to prevent it, while it can really change the odds if the winning player is not precautious or something. Same goes for events that are meant to advantage someone, its better when you can "play" with it I think; haveing means to avoid it or manipulate it. But it can be good, the potentially game unbalancing stuff in other ways. For exempe someone finding some huge source of a strong mount type, but again not exacly random but by exploring and then some luck and knowledge to be involved.

 

Reply #35 Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 8
I have cast post-necromancy to bring about a new idea.  ...

That's an example of "good" necromancy, IMO.

And I think the idea of linking some diplo functionality to a sort of pre-mega-event is brilliant. The latter unit-based one might be tricky for devs and/or players, but Stopping a Disjunction seems pretty straightforward and would mean that a full Disjunction event might unfold very differently depending on individual play styles and just when in a game it happens.

For a late game alliance-oriented player, the 'pre-event' would be a chance to strengthen relationships (and possibly make it over the alliance hump with a reluctant AI). For an aggressive player who has emphasized imbuing essence over building his or her own spellcasting power, sabotaging an effort to stop a Disjunction would be great fun.

Reply #36 Top

Right, it seemed like a new spin on the whole "random event" that would totally work.   Not all random events should summon a council on how to deal with it, of course, but some of the really BIG ones (and especially unbalanced ones) should have a worldly vote on how the wizards are going to let it occur.  (wizards/channelers might also be able to see a bit into the future, which would also explain why the meeting happens)

Reply #37 Top

I really have to pick up SE5 one day. I hope it comes to Impulse soon...

Reply #38 Top

A game without any random event is like a party without music, beer and naked women. :p

 

Seriously a game that never changes is in my opinion boring. IN galciv I always play with random. Some of them sure piss me off some but in the end I like to be piss off because it changes my confort zone. Sometimes I'll loose a game but it still put spices in the soup.

I have to agree with some previous posters as to how the AI will react to some events. When they do nothing that's event more maddening. One poster said why should I help my ennemy if he is attacked by a dragon... because when the dragon is finished with him YOU'RE NEXT! More then likely the dragon will be even more powerful after he's destroyed your eneemy and that means you will loose I want the AI to know this. I want the AI to be able to see beyong the next few turns and evaluate his or her future.

 

All in all the more random event the better.

 

I am also all for a button that remvoes them. The more options the better. This way everybody is happy.

Reply #39 Top

A game without any random event is like a party without music, beer and naked women.

man, my parties must really suck.  Though, I guess there are some good games without random events, so maybe it is not as bad as I thought.

I figured said button to remove them would be a game options.  a button like that been in existance I think in every game with random events since the original master of magic.

Reply #40 Top

I'm ambivalent about random events.  Sometimes they're fun and sometimes they're not fun and get annoying,  Check box toggle off/on, or slider frequency control from Off to Frequent works best for me.

Reply #41 Top

I'm ambivalent about random events. Sometimes they're fun and sometimes they're not fun and get annoying, Check box toggle off/on, or slider frequency control from Off to Frequent works best for me.

I still think since we should be able to make custom ones (and I think we should) there should be a random event tool that lets you load sets and such, then have above mentioned slider on a per-event basis.  (of course, just use pre-saved random event sets most of the time, or sets you've saved yourself)