3..2..1 Stun spike & Win discussion

Its all about the PK, or should it?

from Demigod Forums

Two things:
Anti spike consumables or skills.
How do you prevent a situation where just spiking PK determines the match? (this question I guess mostly applies to a small map like prison as levi and zikurat you can probably sneak a win into their base late game, but lets keep to the question about should spiking and PK determine the winners of a match very early on)?

Coordinated spike team vs random joins on prison map:

I've played alot of 2v2 on prison map. I've played with a friend where we would focus on getting PK through stunning and spiking. I've also been on the receiving end of this situation against two coordinated attackers while struggling to organize a strategy with just a random person.

On prison its very easy to tell who wins early on if you have a group focusing on spiking. Pushing people off the middle with kills or high damage you get to keep the flags capped and can prevent them lvling as they retreat or die.

What would happen vs two organized spike teams?

I'm guessing the first to get the get higher dmg / stun skills and push the other team off the middle will most likely win. I know you could argue other factors but for sake of argument lets assume both teams stay coordinated and together at all times.

Would you prefer to see items or skills that would allow a team losing to coordinated spike scale the difficulty it takes the dominating team to kill them or flag / xp deny them, and possibly turn the tables?

Thoughts on the questions above.
An anti stun or spike consumable skill?
Next time you are stunned instead be healed or speed buff?
Next time you reach 25% health you are immune to negative effect for x seconds?

What if the losing team has access to free effects or skills depending on the lvl gap? A team with a large difference in levels has their healing crystal pushed up or additional crystal? Or consumables are cheaper and more effective? or access to specific skills that are powerful and remain accessible as long as there is a specific level gap between the two teams.

I just feel if a team can't move out and gain any ground for xp and flags that there is really no chance for them to win. The increasing lvl gap and flag advantages just leads to a slow and painful experience that is if you don't concede early as the winner is already decided.

PS the most fun matches I've experience are the ones where both teams about more or less the same level, and winning was decided on chance kills, out maneuvering your opponent for flags, more diligently upgrading your base and who can take out more towers and such.

Please share your thoughts.

demigod
9,948 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Personally I don't want to see anything like a system where the underdog is boosted in any way. You start out equal, the rest is skill.

If anything, stuns are too long and too easy to chain.

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 1
Personally I don't want to see anything like a system where the underdog is boosted in any way. You start out equal, the rest is skill.


While I understand your sentiment. One of the questions on the table is should a spike team determine the winner so early in the game?

A killing spree early game creates a very steep losing slope and increasingly larger lvl and gold gap that makes a comeback unlikely.

 

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

Well, if stuns are reduced in power, that solves that problem partially.

I do see the problem, but I just haven't seen it play out like that yet in player games. Level 5 obviously is the "killer" level, teams who get there first are boosted significantly in power. But noone is unbeatable. Flags are extremely important, maybe they should be reduced in power somewhat. Also you should not be able to teleport to a flag you own imho.

However, fighting over the flags early on gives a great incentive to participate in PK and the war and still feel rewarded without actually attacking the enemy base structures. It's like a pre-mini-game. Maybe the impact is too big on the latter game, but I still think it should be there.

For example, I always felt that neutral portal flags spawning full waves was a bit over the top. I'd like to see them spawn no more than 50% of a normal wave.

 

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Can someone give me a brief overview on terminology here? I'm going with the assumption that PK is a Player Kill and Spike is going for big damage fast in order to get kills quickly without the target having chance to escape.

The issue mcmjon raises applies mostly, if not exclusively, to the smaller more open maps like Prison; Leviathan and Zikurat give players more options for demigod activity, and a weaker demigod might be able to avoid a higher levelled opponent in these environments. The thematic issue of the early lead culminating in late steamroller still applies though so I will offer some thoughts. My first thought was that proper character balance should partially eliminate this issue at its root, but looking at it further, with a smaller flag count (and thus the flags having a much higher effect) could it mean that one team can, as you say, develop such a large advantage over the opposing team so quickly? What is it that gives them that advantage in this example? The flags, the added EXP from PKing or the gold? Perhaps one or more of these factors could be toned down, although I am painfully aware that there needs to be enough incentive in killing other players to make people do it.

Some of the more "hardcore" on these boards may argue that an early advantage culminating in a late steamroller is just how it goes, but the way I see it, one of the most ignored parts of RTS design is the point where one team gains a significant advantage over the other team to the extent where the other team will not be able to recover. The problem is that there is no consideration into when this point occurs; it's fine if it's right at the end of the game, but in games like Sins of A Solar Empire that stretch into hours, it's a fun killer.

If you've got two teams of equally skilled players, I think a game of demigod could easily stretch out for quite a long time (although nowhere near as long as Sins, thank god), and I'd prefer there to not be a case where one team can take full control of the game within a few minutes of play. Assuming player skill is equal on both sides, play should be fluid, with the leader changing regularly.

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

The issue mcmjon raises applies mostly, if not exclusively, to the smaller more open maps like Prison

Prison is a tiny little map.  It's pretty hard to recover from early setbacks because your options are limited to begin with.  Mistakes are magnified.  You see this in a bunch of competitive RTS.  A game between two pro players on a small map will end long before the last defense falls (sometimes when the first defense falls) because chance of recovery is slim. 

Momentum is dealt with neatly in this game, in general, because you have several avenues of victory on larger maps.  I played a game with Heavenfall yesterday where our opponents had far more player kills and higher levels but we won because we invested in our citadel earlier.  It still needs some work, but over all alot better than many competitive games I can think of. 

Just saying - map size has alot more to do with this conversation than Stunlocking

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Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 1
Personally I don't want to see anything like a system where the underdog is boosted in any way. You start out equal, the rest is skill.

If anything, stuns are too long and too easy to chain.

Agreed. Expect their effectiveness to be reduced in the next update.

 

Mike "Tyo" Marr
Demigod Design Lead 

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

Agreed. Expect their effectiveness to be reduced in the next update.

Great news, thanks.   

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Tyo, reply 6

If anything, stuns are too long and too easy to chain.
Agreed. Expect their effectiveness to be reduced in the next update.

 

Excellent. Thanks for the update.

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

I think the base cooldown time for very powerful spike damage or stun spells should be raised. There are items to reduce cooldowns so i do not see what they are so short to begin with. Having a system where using your moves effectively and strategically against another Demigod is better than a system where you can spam mana pots and have 2 players chain spike someone else and win 100% of the time.

 

Increase the cooldowns of the more powerful abilities.

 

TY

Evanescent

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Evanescent, reply 9
Increase the cooldowns of the more powerful abilities.

Hi Evanescent, thanks for your feedback. I agree with you about increasing cooldowns and you'll see a fair amount of that in the next build.

A little history on cooldowns ... in the first beta, all cooldowns were long and after a great deal of playing and discussion I decided to reduce cooldowns for the majority of spells. Sadly, I was pressed for time and so I what I did was reduce ALL cooldowns, the baseline being seven seconds. My strategy for this was straight-forward- rather than play a guessing game of which abilities deserved a longer cooldown, I elected for a wait and see approach. So now, as abilities are proven to be too powerful, for example Oak's Shield, I can either decrease the effectiveness of the ability or I can increases its cooldown.

In conclusion, we're in the cooldown increase phase of balance if you will :)

Mike "Tyo" Marr
Demigod Design Lead