Now this is one excellent point. Jews that are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive will continue to wait, no matter what a billion Christians say, to them their messiah has arrived. If only the two religions could agree on this there would be a lot less arguing.

I don't know many Jews who even care if somebody else's Messiah has arrived or not.

Actually it doesn't even come close becasue "every single Jew" doesn't fulfill these OT prophecies....only Jesus does. 

[quote]You seem to up on many things, Leauki, but not on Old Testament evidence that Our Lord Jesus Christ was the one foretold to come in the ages before His birth.

LEAUKI POSTS:

We have been through this. In the examples you gave I found several translation errors and lots of very inprecise prophecies that could (and did) fit hundreds of people.

Words were changed (like from "cut" to "pierce") to accomodate the crucifixion. Aramaic sentences containing "elohin" ("gods", "powerful ones") are read as Hebrew "Elohim" ("G-d") to create the statement "son of G-d" (instead of "son of powerful ones"). Yuds become Vavs to make a "lion" into "cut" (despite the fact that "cut" is then spelt with an extra consonant, similar to "crut" instead of "cut").

[/quote

Pooh-poohing this away with the excuse of a few translation differences is lame.

Anyone who is seeking truth and vigorously studies these prophecies will come away with the fact that Jesus of the Gospels and of history and only He is the Christ.

People (like me) insist because the Jewish Scripture tells us so.

I believe it....too involved with life in the here and now and forgetting that in the timeline of life on earth is just a nano second compared to eternal life.

Jesus birth, life as an OT Hebraic Jew, and death on the Cross fulfilled every one of the OT prophecies to a "T". Therfore, He was religiously of Moses.

Here's the explanation...

Jesus is God made Man...God Incarnate. The prophet Micheas foretold that the Savior would be born in Bethlehem yet another divine prophecy said that the Virgin Mother of the Divine Savior dwelt at Nazereth. This prophecy was fulfilled by the providence of Almighty God....the pagan Roman emperor was made to take part in the fulfillment of prophecy when he ordered all his subjects to be enrolled and that this degree would be executed in Judea at the time of the birth of the Redeemer. Obediently Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem to inscribe their names in the city from which originated their royal race.

Jesus Christ is true Man, born of the Virgin Mary, the son or descendent of David. Jesus Christ is also true God, the SOn of the Highest, as was announced to the Blessed Virgin by the angel. He shows Himself to our sight as Man, for in the crib we see but a Child. But He reveals Himself as God to our hearing for His angels come and announce that this Child in the crib is the Savior, Christ the Lord Himself. The Magis travel from the East to worship Him.

The Eternal Son of God became Man and hid His Omnipotence and Majesty under the form of a poor, helpless Child, He took the form of a servant and became like us in all things except sin. Why did God become Man...why did He suffer and die...why did He wish to redeem us... becasue He loved us with an infinite and divine love....God humbled Himself that we might be exalted .......a true mystery indeed.

God began His promised plan of Redemption for us at the birth of Jesus Christ. You've often said Christ didn't bring peace as one of the fulfillments of being the Messias ....when in truth He did. Christ brought true peace to all mankind of good will who will accept Him. The unbelief disobedience of man had robbed God of the honor due to Him. Jesus Christ restored that by being obedient to His Heavenly Father even to the point of death on the Cross, and by teaching the one true faith in God and the one true worship of God.

So, our Lord Jesus Christ brought peace to mankind by reconciling earth to Heaven and winning pardon of our sins and grace for us.  This peace on earth which leads to eternal peace in Heaven can only be obtained by those who are of good will i.e. those who are willing to accept Him believe in His doctrines and who correspond with His grace. That's why the Gospel states that while He redeemed all, only many will be justified.

Following the Mosaic law, after 8 days, the Child was circumcised and His name was called Jesus as the angel had commanded. Now, our Lord was without sin so He had no need of circumcision. But He submitted to the rite becasue according to the prophecies the Redeemer was to be a true Isrealite and son of Abraham. To be such and particularly recognized as such, circumcision was necessary. By His Incarnation our Lord took upon Himself the sins of mankind, so as to make satisfaction for them. He shed His precious Blood at circumcision and showed He was come to redeem us by His Blood. By voluntary obeying the Law, He gave us an example of obedience to the Divine Law. Very important for a spritual leader wouldn't agree?

Forty days after His birth, His mother and St. Joseph took Him to the Temple of Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord. By the presentation of Jesus in the temple, the prophecy of Aggeus was fulfilled. The Holy Ghost revealed HIm to Simeon who greeted Him as the Savior of all men and Light of revelation to the Gentiles. Anna testified to this when she extolled the Child as "the Lord" and announced that this Child had revealed Himself as the Redeemer.  

  Simeon's prophecy that Our Lord would be a sign of contradiction has been fulfilled. As an Infant, He was persecuted by Herod and had to flee to Egypt. During His public life which started at 30, He was opposed by the Pharisees and Sadducees. They wished to stone Him as a blashpemer, and was accused before Pilate as a seducer of the people. His enemies never rested....after He died on the Cross...and after His Resurrection from the dead, the opponents of Him, His doctrines, of His Chruch continued, and this will continue till Christ comes again, not as a meek Child, but on the last day as Judge of the world.

There haven't been any prophets in Isreal since Malachais..but as soon as the Messias appeared the gift of prophecy was bestowed upon Zacharias, Anna, Simeon, Elizabeth, and on and on. The Prince of Peace had come whose name was "Wonderful" and reconciled the earth to Heaven.

Lula, since this was an 'immaculate conception' this puts the ancestry on the side of Mary and not Joseph's (since his genetics are not included).  Any evidence that Mary was of David's lineage?

how did i miss the part about circumcision being required as a consequence of sin.

In St. Luke 1:32, the angel told Mary that she would conceive under the direct influence of the Holy SPirit and that the child born of her would inherit the throne of David, His father. This is evidence enough that the Blessed Mother Mary herself by her own right was in the Davidic line.  

It was a Jewish custom though to record descent only through the male line....It's certain that Mary was related to St.Joseph whose genealogy was her own. They were kinspeople of the same Davidic line.

In St.Matt.15:22; 20:30; 22:41-46 we read that the Jews of our Lord's time believed that the Messias was descended from David. This fact was taken for granted by St.Paul in his preaching Rom. 1:3; 15:12; Acts 8:23; and Apoc. 5:6; 22:16.   

Catholics accept 2 genealogies as part of Sacred Scripture...that of St. Matthew 1:1-17 writing for Jews shows Jesus' roots in the chosen people going right back to Abraham and stresses the Messianic character while St. Luke 3:23-38 writing for Christians of Gentile background underlines the universality of the Redemption by going right back to Adam, the father of all men, linking Christ to all mankind.

One gives the juridical succession through which Davidic rights descended to Joseph and his legal son--Christ. The other abstracts from this legal succession and follows the real genealogy according to consanquinity.

You didn't. Circumcision is a sign of a pact with G-d. It has nothing to do with "sin".

The Jewish concept of sins is very different from the Christian concept, which is based very much on a Zoroastrian concept of good and evil that doesn't apply to the Jews as a group. (In Zoroastrianism, Jews are a "good" thing, not a free agent.)

So somebody made that claim and hence you have proof?

Yea, that is a stickler, aint it.

Yes, the fact that there are 2 Scriptural accounts of Christ's own genealogy is historically reliable.

LEAUKI POSTS:

Where's your proof?

Ha!

According to Matthew 1:16: "Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah." (NASB)

This lineage is Joseph's NOT Mary. 

According to Luke 3:23: When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli,

Again we see the son of Joseph.  No mention of Mary and her lineage.

While you may say it's certain, you have YET to show objective evidence that warrants such a conclusion. 

Lula writes:

Kingbee:

Leauki:

Yes this was a sign of the covenant G-D made Abraham.  I know of NO law that this transgresses as sin is the transgression of the law.

Not sure what you are saying but I understand you agree that circumcision has nothing to do with consequences of sin.

(Also, I thought Jesus had been circumcised?)

Yes, according to Luke 2:21 he was circumcised on the 8th day in accordance to Torah.

Just basically agreeing with you n the beeman.

AD posts:

Yes. Let's begin with Scripture.

In St. Luke 1:30-32, "The angel said to her: Fear not, Mary for thou hast found grace with God. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and thou shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great; and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David, His father. and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever."

I believe St.Luke was inspired by God to write this and it alone is evidence enough that the Blessed Mother Mary herself by her own right was in the Davidic line. The angel of God describes the child as the Davidic Messias.

Again, we know that the Jews were very careful to keep the record of their genealogical tree...especially the Jews of royal or priestly families to guide them in their exercise of rights, obligations and functions. We also know the Jewish custom was to draw up the genealogies of the paternal ancestors as you noted below....

Both evangelists are quoting St. Joseph's genealogy. St.Matthew gives us the legitimate succession where the Davidic rights come through St.Joseph as legal father to Jesus. A successor is not necessarily a son and St.Matt. shows how the David rights descended to Joseph and his legal Son Jesus while the real and legal genealogy according to consanguinity given by St.Luke.

Again, the genealogy of St.Joseph was also that of the Blessed Mother Mary. 1--we know that from Scripture as well as from  this verse above (highlighted). 

St.Matthew 1: 19-21 records that the angel told St. Joseph that the child was conceived miraculously by the Holy Spirit and not through the intervention of man.  St.Luke v. 23, in turn, left no doubt as to his mind on the subject when he carefully wrote that "Jesus....being (as it was supposed) the Son of Joseph."

Both lists show that Jesus by being the legal son of Joseph had a right to be called Son of David, a recognized title of the Messias.

Lula posts:

Sorry about that ....it was a kind of "run-on" thought that I blended into one sentence. I can see where you guys would raise a ruckus.

But there is a connection.

We read in Gen. 17 that Almighty God made His covenant first with Abraham as being the father of His chosen people. Later on Mt. Sinai, He confirmed it and renewed it with all the people of Isreal.

Almighty God instituted the religious rite of Circumcision as an outward and visible sign of this covenant that it might be cut in the flesh so that it could not be forgotten. Circumcision was a sacred sign (Sacrament) of admission among the people of God. It signified citizenship of the male child in the nation of God's chosen children just as the Sacrament of Baptism (which removes Original and actual Sin) signifies citizenship in the kingdom of the Messias.

So by the indelible mark of circumcision, man belonged to the Old Covenant and pledged himself to observe it; by Baptism he belongs to the New Covenant and has the indelible mark on the soul. The difference lies in that circumcision could not cleanse man from sin like Baptism does.

The interesting thing is that even though our Lord Jesus Christ was without sin, He subjected Himself to both the religious rite of circumcision and Baptism.

somebody better check the scorecard cuz, based on the claim above, it appears there are as many as three baby

daddies in lil jesus' life.  one is a highly unlikely candidate having been dead quite some time prior to xmas 00 so i'm guessing what's really supposedly meant is 'forefather'. 

really it's a shame they didn't have dna testing back then; imagine having a complete perfect set of genes and chromosones to study.

no more nor less than any days-old infant is able to subject itself to anything especially being mutilated..unless you're imbuing him with full cognition, volition and consciousness from moment of entry (or, perhaps, one hell of a quick study) either of which would greatly diminish his status as being as human as any the rest of us.

btw, no one ever seems to wanna provide an answer to my many inquiries regarding god's insistence on taking tips.

So basically your proof is, it was documented that an angel said so?

Any proof of this happening anywhere else in scripture (refering to the adopted son by father gaining father's inheritance)?