The single biggest difference between rich and middle class people

There is an excellent book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money--That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not!

I highly recommend it to people.  In many discussions on-line, it becomes really apparent that most people don't really understand money. They know what it does but they have no idea how it works, where it comes from, and how to make more of it.

Conceptually, it's straight forward: If I have $1 and my goal is to have more than $1 then I need to invest it in things that will generate a greater than 1.0 rate of return. 

Most people make money by converting time into money -- they trade their labor for money.  It is what they do with that money that determines how wealthy they are going to be.

If the average human being takes $1 and makes $1 back that means there are lots of people who take $1 and will turn it into $.50 just as there are people who can take that $1 and turn it into $2.

People who advocate higher taxes on "the rich" usually don't have much of an understanding of money.  The government, at its best, will take $1 and consume it with it being transferred somewhere else.  So it gets $1 in and $1 out.

That means if it is taking capital from people who take $1 and can turn it into $2 they are, in effect, decreasing the overall wealth of society.  Society never realizes this is happening because they don't know what they're missing. 

Of course, prior to the rise of republican government and private property rights in the 18th century, the wealth of world societies grew extremely slowly because tyrannical governments (kings, queens, emperors, whatever) ultimately controlled all the capital they could get their hands on. 

Soviet Russia was the best modern example where the state had, by definition, all the capital thus its society was effectively in suspended animation while the west profited by having those who could take $1 and turn it into $2 have as much freedom as possible.

Online, you regularly see people argue that the government can take $1 from "the rich" and give it to the "needy" but that should only be done as a last resort and only short term since, by definition, the chronically poor are people who will take $1 and turn it into less than $1. They are, literally, consumers.  Over the past few decades, we have increasingly become a society of consumers as most people know. But we have all still managed to benefit because thanks to technology and economic freedom, there are people who take $1 and turn it into $1000 out there.

Nothing threatens the progress our society makes, however, than when people stop realizing how all this progress occurs. It's not government that does that but free men and women. Citizens.

Governments must tax its citizens to provide basic services, security, and law enforcement. When the government moves beyond this, we all ultimately suffer because every dollar taken from citizens is a dollar that is no longer available to be invested in one form or other. 

That is why, as a society overall, we are better off with the smallest government we can absolutely tolerate.

13,212 views 36 replies
Reply #1 Top

YOu are probably right about the parents.  For it was not at the knee of a parental unit that I learned about how to grow money, but in an economics course in College.  Even in the day to day world, I find the level of economic ignorance to be simply astounding.  While many use the principals of economics in day to day life (Shopping at Wal-Mart because you can get it cheaper - even though their masters tell them Wal-Mart is BAD), they do not know when they use it, and if you try to explain it to them, they look at you like you are a fool.

And these are not lower income people either, but well off middle class technicians (smart people that can run rings around most on Jeopardy or Who wants to be a Millionaire).  Yet they do not understand the simple time value of money, or that moving a dollar from point A to Point B does not generate wealth, or investment.

Economists are often laughed at and made fun of because, like Meteorologists, they are often wrong in their predictions.  That is because the science of predicting what many people will do is inexact, and their strength is in what happens when emotions are removed from the equation (i.e. taking the human factor out of it).

The one thing I tell most of them is that "The rich did not get that way by being stupid", in other words perhaps you should look to them to figure out what to do.  But then this again is negated (the wisdom, not the facts) by liberals who Point to Lay or Madoff and extrapolate that the rich got that way by cheating and stealing.  Ignoring the fact that the number of millionaires charged with a crime is a lot lower (as a percent) than that of the middle or lower income groups.

Reply #2 Top

Hrmm...I get the point about the exchange rate of money (as in the input and output amounts)...but since tehre is a fairly static amount of "wealth" in the world, doesn't that require there to be suckers out there that turn $1 to $0.50 (that is spend beyond their means) so that other people can turn $1 to $2?  (Just so I don't sound like a whiney poor sucker bastard, I don't spend beyond my  means [my means are still low anyway since I'm still in school] and my parents are living nicely). 

*note*I assume their is a static amount of money based on the description in that book since time -> money since there is a finite amount of laborers in the world (if there is a fairly steady rate of people entering the work force and retired people...though I think it's true that the rate of retirees is LOEWR than the rate of people entering the work force...but it seems weird to me to assume that our world has an increase in overall wealth based only on the birth / death rate)?

 

Reply #3 Top

And is the $1 to $1000 rate a rough number thown out there by the book to give an idea of the difference between normal spenders and people who create a large amount of wealth or are there people out there that you could relate that too?  I mean, it seems difficult for me to give an accurate number for something like that for example to a jeff bezos since I don't really know the rate of growth of his company so i can convert time to dollars.

 

And also...if I wanted to ask you stuff not related to any blog post, should I send multiple email copies (since you get alot of unique emails from people) or does that just make you say, "wow, a spammer.  I'm going to definitely ignore him now"?

 

-rattasak

Reply #4 Top

Hi guys you miss me??! lol i had to redo windows... anyways

 

I am never for taxes, though I do support it when it come to providing basic needs like roads... schools ect. What I dont like seeing is the gov getting bigger by the day, programs that are useless waste of money that are not effective ect ect.

Reply #5 Top

Hrmm...I get the point about the exchange rate of money (as in the input and output amounts)...but since tehre is a fairly static amount of "wealth" in the world, doesn't that require there to be suckers out there that turn $1 to $0.50 (that is spend beyond their means) so that other people can turn $1 to $2?  (Just so I don't sound like a whiney poor sucker bastard, I don't spend beyond my  means [my means are still low anyway since I'm still in school] and my parents are living nicely).
End of quote

Wealth isn't static. If it was, we'd still be living in caves.

The first lesson you need to learn about wealth is that it is not zero-sum.

Reply #6 Top

it becomes really apparent that most people don't really understand money.
End of quote

I can't deny I am one of them and while I have been learning a little lately, it has been a slow process. I still have a lot to learn but I hope I can at least instill in my children that which I did not learn. On the other hand, my father does understand money. Here is a man who has the uncanny ability to make money out of nothing (I don't really mean nothing, you get my point). Why I never learned it's beyond me, it's not like he didn't try but I guess it may have had something to do with how he did it. He was, after all, a loan shark and his method of making money was not what I considered honest. I never liked the idea of duping people into giving me their money for thing they either could not afford or lend them money it was obvious they could not pay without hurting themselves more later on. Perhaps this dislike to abuse people (as coderunner called them "suckers") is what kept me away from learning a valuable lesson.

Reply #7 Top

Draginol-

I agree with everything in your article in theory

The practical application however is a different story, and much of it comes down to this-

the west profited by having those who could take $1 and turn it into $2 have as much freedom as possible.
End of quote

Now, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. And in "days of old" it took a loooong time to turn 1 dollar into 2 dollars and it was based on real sales. The widget factory would build widgets at cost x and sell for y price with a profit of z, which would gradually accumulate to the point that the owner could expand  his operation and hire more workers, or perhaps buy another factory down the road.

And yes, of course taxes hurt the bottom line for the individual business, but if done properly they can help greater society in a way the ultimately comes back to help the business.

It all depends on HOW the tax dollars are spent. Say for example, that your tax dollars go to build a massive reliable public transit system, making it easier for workers to get to your factory AND easier for potential customers to get to shopping malls to buy the products you produce. That's a benefit that helps you indirectly in several ways. For one, both your workers and potential customers have more money in their pockets as they didn't have to burn through gas getting to and from work and the shopping mall (oversimplified but you get the gist)

Or perhaps the money goes to a better public education system, producing more people who are better educated, therefore providing you the double benefit of having more customers with disposable income to buy your products  and a larger pool of talented labor from which you might want to hire more workers.

Again, directly there's no discernible benefit, but indirectly that can have a massive benefit for you.

Universal healthcare, which seems to be a subject of undying hatred for Americans, actually costs less per capita through taxation and overall produces citizens who have more disposable income to buy your products, as they're not worrying about paying 500 dollars a month for a policy that MAY cover them in the case of illness or injury.

Again, indirectly helping business out as you have more customers who are healthy (and can therefore work, giving them more money) and are happier, since they don't have to worry about healthcare, they then give you the double bonus of having more money in their pocket to spend on your products, AND since they don't have a giant millstone of worry hanging around their necks they're more likely to spend anyway.

So the whole point of taxation of business is that the entire system, if done properly, is reciprocal.

Here's the problem I have with "Wealth Creation" and the concept of turning 1 dollar into 2 dollars-

You have a widget that you build. It costs you say, 50 cents to produce and you sell it for the price of 2 dollars, therefore covering the cost of the widget you just sold, leaving you with another 50 cents to build another widget AND a whole dollar of pure surplus profit sitting in your pocket!

Now here is the question- that dollar of profit that you just made... did you create it?

No, you didn't. It was transferred to you by someone who bought your product. And that's the whole point of our economy. No one actually creates money out of thin air, except for of course the government with a nice big printing press and the exercise of monetary policy.

And this is the big disagreement. One side says

"I created this dollar of wealth I hold in my hands, and so it's mine to do with as I please!"

The other side says

"That dollar of wealth you hold was transferred to you in exchange for a good or service you produced. Therefore, you didn't technically create that wealth out of thin air and it's proof that your livelihood and prosperity is based on others transferring their wealth to you. Therefore, since you are dependant on society greater for your profits, it's in everyone's best interest if that society is educated, happy and healthy!"

you regularly see people argue that the government can take $1 from "the rich" and give it to the "needy" but that should only be done as a last resort and only short term since, by definition, the chronically poor are people who will take $1 and turn it into less than $1. They are, literally, consumers.
End of quote

The beauty of this is that it depends on your perspective. From the perspective of the poor person, yes, they regularly spend all the money they get. From the perspective of the toothpaste company that the poor will spend his dollar on, they count that dollar as wealth creation. So if anything, the poor fulfill an absolutely essential function in that they are one part of the economy that doesn't hold on to money- they continually cycle it upwards, never holding on to it.

So, since the economy isn't about creating wealth but actually transferring it, looking back at historical trends the worst economic turmoil and misery has always occurred when too much wealth (that some will say has been created) is concentrated in too few hands, thus impeding the cyclical flow of money through the system.

The role that the government is to play, through taxation, is to foster the conditions that allow for money to continue to flow through the system in a cyclical, reciprocal fashion. Otherwise, if they don't tax then everything ultimately flows upwards to the king of the hill, where one way or another it stays there or will come back to him indirectly anyway. Winner takes all and then you get a situation very similar to many south american free market experiments (forced on them by the likes of the IMF and world bank)

What kind of society do you get with minimal taxation?

 1 % of the population live like gods,

 20% live decently as the managers and protectors of that 1 %

Another 20-30 % scrape by in the real economy as the labor (not managers) providing essential goods and services

50% of the population becomes human surplus living in a barrio.

 

Reply #8 Top

What kind of society do you get with minimal taxation?

 1 % of the population live like gods,

 20% live decently as the managers and protectors of that 1 %

Another 20-30 % scrape by in the real economy as the labor (not managers) providing essential goods and services

50% of the population becomes human surplus living in a barrio.

End of quote

I have seen such a society with my own eyes.

It's the high-tax communist system. I saw it in East-Germany.

West-Germany had lower taxes and not only was everyone richer than the people in East-Germany, but the proportion of gods was higher too.

In the 1980s the United States had even lower taxes than West-Germany. And the people in the US were richer than the people in West-Germany still, with an even higher proportion of "gods".

But I have seen the 1% gods, 50% human surplus system.

Where did you get the idea that it had anything to do with minimal taxes? Do you even look at the world and its simple examples before you make statements like that?

I mean, seriously, it is one thing to argue that universal public health care is a good thing or that higher taxes can be beneficial. But it is quite another to claim that the result of minimal taxes is a scenario which we have consistently experienced in countries that had the highest (not minimal) taxes in the world.

 

 

Reply #9 Top

What kind of society do you get with minimal taxation?

 1 % of the population live like gods,

 20% live decently as the managers and protectors of that 1 %

Another 20-30 % scrape by in the real economy as the labor (not managers) providing essential goods and services

50% of the population becomes human surplus living in a barrio.

End of quote

Wow. Can you point to one of these societies?

In the real world, the situation you describe is most commonly found in corrupt socialist countries like in Central America or Africa where the state confiscates nearly everything people produce.

Reply #10 Top

Now here is the question- that dollar of profit that you just made... did you create it?

No, you didn't. It was transferred to you by someone who bought your product. And that's the whole point of our economy. No one actually creates money out of thin air, except for of course the government with a nice big printing press and the exercise of monetary policy.

End of quote

Wow.  

Well, Art, thanks for demonstrating why so few people are truly wealthy.    

History doesn't agree with you, however. Hence why we are discussing this from the comfort of our ever increasing home sizes in ever greater material comfort that would have utterly shocked people from even 20 years ago.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Draginol, reply 5


Wealth isn't static. If it was, we'd still be living in caves.
The first lesson you need to learn about wealth is that it is not zero-sum.

End of Draginol's quote

 

You know, I admit I don't know much about economics, but there is only a limited number of hours in the day and it's somewhere in the middle of interests for me.  It'd be nice if a day was longer.

 

But from what I can gather, it seems various factors are used to support a non-zero sum game view of wealth...and that seems to actually include the size of the work force increasing because of life expectancy and faster birth to death rates and larger use of earth's surface for various work...that makes it soundl ike it might reach an equilibrium sometime in the future IF people don't increase the work space to something more than earth's useable surface and if human age limits reach some kind of barrier (there's always space stations and longetivity research).

 

But the interesting thing is...from the various articles I read it sounds like this is still a debated topic....as in there isn't some rock-solid proof that convinces all economists (not that that's something special...alot of theoretical physics is a bunch of conjectures that try to fit reality as much as possible but they also don't all agree.)

 

So I'm asking, as it seems like you have spent more time on this than I have (a cople hours this afternoon), what sources did you read for the supporting non zero-sum game view?  Wikipedia agrees with you (the non-zero sum view) though ;)  But I don't usually use wiki for everything after reading some of the comp sci stuff on there

Reply #12 Top

It is amazingly ironic to read some of the arguments against this excellent excellent post.

Reply #13 Top

[qjuote]You know, I admit I don't know much about economics, but there is only a limited number of hours in the day and it's somewhere in the middle of interests for me.  It'd be nice if a day was longer.

 

But from what I can gather, it seems various factors are used to support a non-zero sum game view of wealth..[/quote]

Unless you're living in a cave -- literally, you should probably not be arguing that wealth is zero sum.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Draginol, reply 13


Unless you're living in a cave -- literally, you should probably not be arguing that wealth is zero sum.

End of Draginol's quote

 

Well...I am living in the a cave in thailand right now...hence the sparse replies from me ;)

 

I'm not asking you your sources to test you.  I'm curious what are some of the books you read that talk about this?  I question pretty much everything, so I hope you don't take it personally. 

I googled creation of wealth or somethiing along those lines and traveled along and read and most seem to support your view but I ended up at some (recent) journal papers that argue against the non zero-sum game.

 

Merry christmas to you anyway.  By the time I am back in the states this may be in the archives.

Reply #15 Top

He isn't saying "living in a cave" like "living under a rock" as in "ignorant"

He means that if economics was a zero sum game, and since all humans originally lived IN CAVES (cavemen), and today we do NOT. Than obviously wealth is CREATED, rather than just transfered. People are ALL weltheir than before.

(sometimes wealth is destroyed).

Reply #16 Top

He means that if economics was a zero sum game, and since all humans originally lived IN CAVES (cavemen), and today we do NOT. Than obviously wealth is CREATED, rather than just transfered. People are ALL weltheir than before.
End of quote

That's partially true. Wealth is a construct in that our recognition of wealth is based on a communal idea of monetary value. But contemporary wealth is based on ownership of material things. Excluding the occasional asteroid strike, the only wealth created is in peoples' heads; everything manufactured has always been here, it's simply been bought low (ie through mining/farming rights) and sold much higher as finished goods.

Recessions are when people forget for a moment that the entire economy relies on everyone believing in the dream, and react in a logical but irrational way to the lack of any clothes in modern imperial economics.

The continuously rich are the ones canny enough to play the dream when it's smooth sailing and fall back on the real when it's all gone a bit pear-shaped.

I agree with Draginol that the middle class and rich are differentiated primarily on their understanding of economics, but I disagree that it's basically a bad thing (if that's why he keeps making the point). I think most middle class people are happy where they are. After all, they can afford most things they want and everything they need. Economics just isn't important enough to most people to make being rich worth the sacrifices of becoming rich.

Reply #17 Top

That's partially true. Wealth is a construct in that our recognition of wealth is based on a communal idea of monetary value. But contemporary wealth is based on ownership of material things. Excluding the occasional asteroid strike, the only wealth created is in peoples' heads; everything manufactured has always been here, it's simply been bought low (ie through mining/farming rights) and sold much higher as finishe

End of quote

My computer wasn't here before someone created it.

A bunch of rocks, some oil, and some sand is NOT the same as my computer. And obviously my computer is more valuable than some rocks, oil, and sand. Otherwise we wouldn't have built it.

Perhaps wealth exists only in people's heads. But that's all we are: people. What other absolute value is there than how we perceive the world?

(I am waiting for some Creationist to come in now explaining to us that there cannot be any wealth since creation of things from other things violates the second law of thermodynamics.)

An asteroid strike does not necessarily increase the amount of our wealth. If it hits something we created but brings in resources less wealth than it just destroyed, the asteroid strike decreased our wealth.

I really think many left-wingers never understood wealth.

 

Reply #18 Top

good point about assembly, but he even said MINING!

Being in the earth but miles away from being reachable to a person without technology does not make it "available"... mining isn't "buying low", its adding resources to the pool from a source previously untapable. (its not like you can just walk miles into the earth and pick up some gold.)

just like one cannot simply walk into space, but in the future it will be possible to mine an astroid and bring the raw materials to earth.

Reply #19 Top

In the real world, the situation you describe is most commonly found in corrupt socialist countries like in Central America or Africa where the state confiscates nearly everything people produce.
End of quote

Actually, this situation IS indeed quite often found in central and south american countries, but ones that have had right wing dictatorships (dictatorships that interestingly enough had the blessing of, or at the least a blind eye turned to their tactics by the west) The resurgence of leftist governments we see in the americas today is relatively recent. But if you go back in history, you'll find that in most major american countries there was a very popular leftist movement that was gaining a lot of speed in the 1950-1970-ish range, from Brazil, to Argentina, Chile (with Salvador Allende as their leftist president) and so on. Interestingly enough, most of these countries had military coups that deposed of their democratically elected leadership, after which right wing dictators took control and enacted wildly unpopular economic measures.

But don't take my word for it. I'm just a crazy know-nothing foaming at the mouth liberal terrorist-lover, right? Instead, for further explanation check out any of the following books-

Blowback, Sorrows of Empire and Nemesis; the last days of the american republic by Chalmers Johnson (trilogy)

Failed States by Noam Chomsky

The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein

and for a little bit of lighter reading, but still worthwhile the book

Confessions of an Economic Hitman, by John Perkins

Also several good books by Chris Hedges, although the only title of his that comes to mind at this particular moment is called "war is a force that gives us meaning" which doesn't focus so much on economic topics.

Wow. Can you point to one of these societies?
End of quote

But it is quite another to claim that the result of minimal taxes is a scenario which we have consistently experienced in countries that had the highest (not minimal) taxes in the world.
End of quote

I can point to several such societies. One of them occurred in the U.S of A in the late 19th and early 20th century. This was the time known as the Gilded Age, and it's actually something we run a very serious risk of returning to.

Here's a quick and dirty link-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

So, let's describe a situation very similar to the gilded age and how it works (and why it's able to work) In fact, it's a situation still found in many smaller towns today although mostly ignored.

Imagine a town with say, 5 or 10 thousand people. It can be more or less but let's stick with this number for our example.

In this town, let's say you've got a couple of primary industries. Maybe a rubbermaid factory. Maybe a sawmill, maybe a mine, but suffice it to say, you've got a couple of meal-ticket operations that are the underpinning of the local economy and allow for all the secondary industries, the restaurants and bars and stores on mainstreet to have a customer base and get revenue.

Now, let's say that the mine is owned by a man named Mr. Potter (as in the Mr. Potter from "It's a Wonderful Life")

Now, since Mr. Potter's mine is the main employer in town and the money spent by his workers allow for all of the other industries to flourish, the town council is incredibly sympathetic to any desires he may have. In fact, he's probably on town council or perhaps his brother is. So he has a lot of influence in any thing that's going to happen in town.

Now, being a good little capitalist, Mr Potter always has to put his money to work, you know, so that he can continue to take 1 dollar and turn it into 2 dollars. This means that with some of his profits, he's going to go out and buy other properties in town. Perhaps houses and apartment buildings that he'll rent out.

Then, with the additional profit he makes off of that, he goes out and buys more businesses. The General Store, the restaurants, why before you know it, he owns just about every business in town. This means that it really doesn't matter what he chooses to pay his workers, because ultimately every dollar they make will just be recycled back to him one way or another.

Have you ever heard that song about the company store? Or life in a company town? (I think LW's father was a coal miner in such a condition, no?)

A perfect example of what I'm talking about, and what we're going back to can be found in the case of Mr. George Pullman, who created his own company town in the 1880's-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pullman

"Pullman ruled the town like a feudal baron. He prohibited independent newspapers, public speeches, town meetings or open discussion. His inspectors regularly entered homes to inspect for cleanliness and could terminate leases on ten days notice. The church stood empty since no approved denomination would pay rent and no other congregation was allowed. Private charitable organizations were prohibited. Pullman employees once declared:

We are born in a Pullman house, fed from the Pullman shops, taught in the Pullman school, catechized in the Pullman Church, and when we die we shall go to the Pullman Hell.

Pullman employees living in the Pullman-owned town"

Now the only counterbalance to this is organized labor and an effective democratically elected government who plays traffic cop (beholden to the citizens, not the few ultra rich) but labor had it's back broken during the 80's (what with less than 13% of workers currently unionized) and the current government is so incredibly beholden to special interests that it's anything but impartial. So we're headed back to this situation of winner takes all, "king of the hill" type of society.

Again, purely on principal higher taxes doesn't automatically mean greater prosperity for society. The key is that those higher taxes be used properly on things that will benefit everyone, including the businesses and ultra rich that paid their share.

 

Reply #20 Top

really think many left-wingers never understood wealth.
End of quote

Well Leauki, you should have a conversation with Nikola Tesla. He's the inventor of AC electricity, among many other things (including the radio, as it has been determined that he beat out Marconi)

Mr Tesla's inventions and contributions to humanity far surpass many of the inventions brought about by many other entrepreneurs who profitted wildly. But Tesla died a penniless man.

Did you know that when Tesla was working with Mr. Westinghouse, he signed a contract stating that he would get paid  $2.50 for each kilowatt of AC electricity sold?

His invention was so wildly succesful and adopted across such a broad spectrum that when the amount he was owed by Westinhouse was over 1 million dollars, Westinghouse was threatened with bankruptcy. If Tesla had a been a real "wealth creator", he could have cleaned out Mr Westinghouse for all he was worth and gone on to create his own business empire. But he realized that the money he would be receiving (that's wealth that he'd be "creating") from others would make electricity so expensive that it would hold back progress and deprive others of their own hard earned money. So he tore up the contract and took a lump sum payment so he could continue his research (and you know, that westinghouse guy just faded into anonymity, right?)

He also played around with X-rays before roentgen was officialy credited with their discovery, worked on inventions and principals related to radar and television and was using flourescent bulbs in his lab almost 40 years before industry "invented" them.

His last official project? He was working on a wireless transmission system for one Mr. JP Morgan (also a no name) When Mr. Morgan found out that Tesla wanted cheap and abundant energy for everyone, Morgan pulled the funding and had the project shut down. I guess the man who invented some of the underpinnings for our entire modern way of life, had gotten in the way of Mr. Morgan's dreams of wealth creation!

Reply #21 Top

The countries with the most economic freedom are usually the wealthiest.

High taxation is one quick way to decrease economic freedom. 

I am not sure what is "right wing" about South American dictatorships. 

Reply #22 Top

A bunch of rocks, some oil, and some sand is NOT the same as my computer. And obviously my computer is more valuable than some rocks, oil, and sand. Otherwise we wouldn't have built it.
End of quote

Sure. But it wasn't created from nothing. That's my point. It's a refined good, not something created from nothing. Real wealth is based on the physical.

That's why people turn to gold during a recession. People realise, when the bubble bursts, that gold is better than any number of derivatives, which unlike gold are wholly imagined.

An asteroid strike does not necessarily increase the amount of our wealth. If it hits something we created but brings in resources less wealth than it just destroyed, the asteroid strike decreased our wealth.
End of quote

Asteroids occasionally carried meteoric iron, which for much of human history was incredibly valuable due to its purity. I was using them of an example of the rare occasion where the earth actually gains more mass.

Being in the earth but miles away from being reachable to a person without technology does not make it "available"... mining isn't "buying low", its adding resources to the pool from a source previously untapable. (its not like you can just walk miles into the earth and pick up some gold.)
End of quote

The pool of minerals in the earth isn't infinite, and therefore there's a limit to the wealth you can harvest by mining. It's not creation if you're just taking it from somewhere else and refining it for a new purpose. You're creating it from pre-existing objects. Derivatives are created from hope, conjecture, sunshine and short skirts.

Reply #23 Top

you are very VERY selective in your quotes cactoblasta, oftentimes countering with things debunked in the same post from which you are selectively quoting...

You yourself say that an astroid hits increases the total wealth because minerals become available, so as long as the astroid is in SPACE it is unreachable and unavailble and thus not considered wealth. Why then are the unreachable minerals in the depth of the earth (maybe, eve down in its molten core? or do you draw the line an some arbitrary depth?) considered part of our wealth? you are arbitrarily decide "earth and anything below its surface is our wealth, space and anything in it is not, unless it enters the atmosphere.

You also compeltely confuse "natural resources" with "wealth". Wealth has little to do with resources and more to do with what you DO with those resources (for example, shaping the rock into a house instead of remaining a cave)

Reply #24 Top

Sure. But it wasn't created from nothing. That's my point. It's a refined good, not something created from nothing. Real wealth is based on the physical.

End of quote

You and I have different views of what "wealth" is. _I_ find my computer more valuable than some natural resources of the same weight and material.

The market also finds my computer more valuable, which is why I can get an old computer for free, but have to pay for a computer like my current one.

 

Reply #25 Top

How we define wealth is irrelevant. Whatever you want to call it, the way we live has changed dramatically since the days we lived in caves.

The resaon we don't live in caves still is because people did things that resulted in us not living in caves. 

Assuming we don't like living in caves, we should look at why we don't live in caves.