Draginol Draginol

The government's "money"

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The government's "money"

from JoeUser Forums

Obama joke

 

So my tax bill for April is starting to come together and it's looking pretty bad. I've been paying estimated taxes all year but we had a particularly good year this year and since many of our projects run under S-corporations, their profits get tied to my personal return (like most small business owners).

Our company has around 70 people in it. We'd have more but we literally can't fit anyone else in the building.  We're in the process of building out other parts of the building we own but of course, that requires a lot of money.

Some of these projects will have to be put off until mid next year or later depending on how well Demigod, Sins of a Solar Empire: Entrenchment, Object Desktop 2009, and ironically, how well our partner Dell does (buy Dell computers! :)).

The reason they have to be put off is not that we don't have the capital to build out more of the building and hire more people, we do. It's that that money is going to go to the government instead in the form of income taxes -- almost $2 million of it in fact.

Now obviously, the government needs money to pay for vital services. I don't begrudge paying taxes on principle.  But too often, people forget where government money ultimately comes from. Worse, they are totally unaware of the consequences of taxation.

Taxes should always be kept as low as humanly possible because when you tax, you are literally taking from the people who are the most productive with capital and often giving it to the least.

Stardock, for instance, is based in the Detroit area of Michigan. So there is a certain sense of irony that the $2 million the government is taking from us is going to be given to the Auto companies and other companies have have absolutely demonstrated that they are terrible with capital.  Heck, our $2 million probably was used up in the hearings leading up to the vote on the bail out for the auto industry which Bush ultimately and unwisely decided to ignore.

So instead of using that $2 million to hire workers to build out another 8000 square feet so that we can hire an additional 24 more people this next year (to open more development teams to work on more projects for OEMs, gamers, and general consumers) we'll have to wait until we make enough money from the sales of our projects next year.  Way to go government...

56,245 views 149 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top

The problem with guys like Sodaiho is that they hide their visciousness behind a fake vineer of "enlightenment". But I think it's obvious that Sodaiho isn't enlightened, it's just an act.

I will debate an issue all day long. I don't mind people disagreeing with my opinions. But when people attack me personally, I have really no incentive to keep people like that around.

Sodaiho literally expressed his hope that my business would fail. And for what? Because I have a different view on economics and politics than he does?  

Reply #52 from Stardock Forums Top

And Elie?  The reason you've witnessed sim getting dogpiled so mercilessly is because some people (and I'm not naming names) have yet to learn the difference between ass-kissing and brown-nosing.  (Depth perception.)
End of quote

Oh please. He got pissed off and decided to personally attack me.  Other people dogpiled on him because nothing annoys other people more than someone trying to hide their pettiness behind some sort of lame justification.

Nobody cares what his intent was.  He had an emotional response.  The existence of people like me offends some people. 

I like capitalism. I believe it creates a better world. I make no apologies for being rich and materialistic. I don't feel shame for driving a nice car or having a big house because the wealth I have I arrived through the voluntary purchases of other people.

And I know that it just gets under the skins over guys like Sodaiho. But just as I try to stick to the issues, I expect others to do the same.  

Sodaiho's response had nothing to do with the topic. He was pissed off and wanted to find a cheap, easy way to try "bring me down a notch".  

I don't really care what people think of me. But I do expect people using my stuff to at least show some level of respect.

Or put another way, if somone is intentioally going to try to antagonize me, I'll make them go away. Always have. It's not a new phenomenon.  I'm pretty consistent about that. :)

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Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top

I was going to stay out of this, until we sat down and started looking at our personal taxes....

I don't game, but I do indirectly benefit from the gaming industry.  Joeuser is a by product of the gaming industry..I don't understand the mentality which says:

Gaming is useless, I can't wait to see it fail, (etc) while I continue to use a by product of it, something that exists soley because the owner does gaming (and other programs) well...while calling him names and drawing the worst possible conclusions when reading things he writes...

More jobs (as opposed to endless taxes frivolously spent) does more than just pump money into the economy imo.  It allows families to prosper emotionally, financially, educationally, creatively, and spiritually.  Those things are difficult when a family struggles with unemployment.

On a personal note.  While I don't play games, I think they are a form of modern art.  The story lines, the character development, the colors, not to mention the technical expertise.  I admire the creativity behind them, am often in awe of it when watching my son play.

We don't pay nearly the taxes Stardock does (as a family), but we still pay them, and it sucks to do it and see our tax dollars go for anti-capitalistic ventures.  You don't have to pay $2 million to feel the suckage....and I would certainly be annoyed if I had to cancel something like a simple vacation so I could pay MORE taxes...its our money, we earned it.  Why should we feel bad about wanting to hang on to as much of it as possible?

 

Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top

A clarification...

I do believe some sort of national priority list for tax revenue should be established.  It is ridiculous in this day and age that our infrastructure is crumbling...and getting worse.

Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top

The testosterone in here is so thick it would choke a buzzard.
End of quote

Was that a sexist comment about how our "unreasonable dogpiling" of "poor sidho" for "having an opinion" stemming from us being male?

Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top

Oh please. He got pissed off and decided to personally attack me.  Other people dogpiled on him because nothing annoys other people more than someone trying to hide their pettiness behind some sort of lame justification.
End of quote

Pretty much.

Little-whip, this is neither "ass-kissing" or "brown nosing", it is a simple matter of finding it dispicable to act like a total jerk and even hide it behind a veneer of enlightment. How about making an actual argument rather than just flinging mud at peoples credibility with comments about people flinging testosterone and brown nosing. (last I checked the two were mutally exclusive; or are you saying I am showing my testosterone by brown-nosing?).

 

PPS. he wasn't even dogpiled, it was what, 3 people rushing to his defense while 4-5 tearing down his poorly constructed veneer of enlighment to reveal the ugliness underneath?

Reply #57 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 61


A clarification...
I do believe some sort of national priority list for tax revenue should be established.  It is ridiculous in this day and age that our infrastructure is crumbling...and getting worse.

End of Tova7's quote

I agree with you. Our roads here in Michigan are ridiculously bad.  And yet, we seem to have the money to fund bizarre studies, pay for penis enlargement with Medicare and hand out billions to incompotent wallstreet executives and auto companies.

Reply #58 from Stardock Forums Top

Hooray for socialism! >_>

There is a reason it's never worked before.

Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top

i just hope we stop it before it crushes the united states as well...

Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top

High taxes don't affect me personally in the slighest. It affects you and people like you.  

The first thing tht gets cut isn't my salary. It's hiring new workers and expanding our business.  That means fewer jobs available.

End of quote

So you're not looking to maximise your profit then, but rather have inserted some charitable elements into it (hiring people who lose you money) if I'm reading that right? Just that I can't see any other way for you to maintain your salary at it's current level after a tax rise by firing people (all else equal), since the tax will be on a % of your profits, and hence firing someone who was making a profit before the tax rise would mean firing someone who was making a profit for you (just not as much of it) after the tax rise.

if Brad's baby stardock, was in jeopardy, he'd be first in the bailout line
End of quote

Even if true (a fairly big if), so what? If the government sends you a letter saying that they may well give you $10k, would you say no, or would you take the money as soon as you can? Most people would take the money (assuming there weren't strings attached that didn't make it worthwhile) because ultimately people are selfish and will do what's in there best interests - there are very few people therefore who would have such a high 'charitable coefficient' coupled with a possible feeling of guilt (since they wouldn't have felt they've 'earnt' the money) who would reject the offer of $10k, especially if dressed up (e.g. 'as a thank you for all the taxes you've paid, we've decided to give you $10k to help you cope').

For example, if I was a car manufacturer I'd think it stupid that the government would be prepared to bail me+others out (from the government/society's perspective), but from my own perspective I'd be desperate for the money and be happy to take it in spite of that.

I love educational games, my grandchildren love noggin.com, etc.  but I really do not think that its a large market share for the gaming industry...I may be wrong...but what I see from Stardock's ads have more to do with violence, than anything else or am I incorrect?
End of quote

A sadly narrow minded perspective IMO. Take galactic civilizations 2 for example - yes, it's about violence (you can invade other planets, kill the entire population, and be generally evil), but it's also educational, and not all about violence (instead of invading and being evil you can look to create world peace and win via promoting your culture). It will do wonders for your maths skills for example, since the entire game is based on numbers, and to do 'the best' at it you need to get an understanding of how they work. So for example you can learn that you can borrow money now to get something quickly, at the expense of paying back 10 times it's cost over many years, helping educate you as to the time value of money, and about prudent levels of debt, etc. etc.; Contrast that to your typical first person shooter game, where you're given a gun, and have to go around shooting people, and do better based on your reflexes - i.e. very little thinking is required. In fact as a genre, strategy games are probably the most educational due to the significant beneficial impact they'll have on your grasp of mathematics (stardock tends to make strategy games btw in case you're wondering why I'm highlighting them).

Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top

You know, taltamir, I try diligently to ignore you, but since you addressed me directly, I will ask you one simple question. Have you ever, once, on any topic, disagreed with Draginol?
End of quote

Hmmm....come to think about it, I've never seen the two together in the same room.  :lol:  

Reply #62 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Draginol, reply 14

Tova7comment 61

A clarification...
I do believe some sort of national priority list for tax revenue should be established.  It is ridiculous in this day and age that our infrastructure is crumbling...and getting worse.


I agree with you. Our roads here in Michigan are ridiculously bad.  And yet, we seem to have the money to fund bizarre studies, pay for penis enlargement with Medicare and hand out billions to incompotent wallstreet executives and auto companies.
End of Draginol's quote

 

O come on research into wooden arrows is always money well spent!@

Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top

you know, this entire discussion made me think of this:

http://www.bigheadpress.com/eft?page=1

This is where we are headed.

You know, taltamir, I try diligently to ignore you, but since you addressed me directly, I will ask you one simple question.  Have you ever, once, on any topic, disagreed with Draginol?
End of quote

Yes I have, on several occasions.

Hmmm....come to think about it, I've never seen the two together in the same room.
End of quote

uh oh, he is on to me... i better get a hologram!

Reply #64 from Stardock Forums Top

I have been blogging here for over four years and constantly complaining "America needs to stop sending money to countries that hate us and start fixing our infrastructure" Our dams and bridges are in terrible shape, our roadways stink, our elictrical grids are over worked and out of date, we have homeless combat vets in the richest country on the planet, this is criminal in my opinion.

Need I go on?

Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top

The real question here is one that can't really be answered...'Would that 2 million do more good if it were used to provide 24 new jobs at Stardock or ....(insert random government expenditure here)....?
End of quote

In my mind it boils down to this. 

The gov has enough of our money.  It needs to learn to budget what it has.

Anything above necessity (to keep the country united and safe) is robbery imo.

Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top

the answer is deceptively obvious. a percentage of that 2 mil will go to useless wasteful stuff, a percentage will go to paying for good government programs.

Reply #67 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Tova7, reply 23

The real question here is one that can't really be answered...'Would that 2 million do more good if it were used to provide 24 new jobs at Stardock or ....(insert random government expenditure here)....?
In my mind it boils down to this. 

The gov has enough of our money.  It needs to learn to budget what it has.

Anything above necessity (to keep the country united and safe) is robbery imo.
End of Tova7's quote

 

^ we have a winner. Ive been called so many names for opposing taxes, when it boils down to the fact, im not agenst taxes , just the way its spent. There is so much garbage a waisted spending that its not really fair to take MORE money and spend it foolishly. Anything with GOVERNMENT attached to it pretty much means that it will cost 2x as much to get done than it should.

Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top

Government waste of taxpayers money has become an art form for both parties, it's like some kind of game where they both get to stick "earmarks" on important bills at the last second so almost no one knows about it. Billions are wasted on Earmarks for bullshit to make politicians more electable. When all is said and done politicians look out for themselves first and foremost with an eye on continued suckling at the public tit, then looking out for their allies, then they if they have time they look out for their constituents which make up a very small percentage of the population.

Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top

So you're not looking to maximise your profit then, but rather have inserted some charitable elements into it (hiring people who lose you money) if I'm reading that right? Just that I can't see any other way for you to maintain your salary at it's current level after a tax rise by firing people (all else equal), since the tax will be on a % of your profits, and hence firing someone who was making a profit before the tax rise would mean firing someone who was making a profit for you (just not as much of it) after the tax rise.
End of quote

A business is one form of investment. 

Like anyone else, if my available capital is limited more than I anticipate, I will cut my spending in various areas like discretionary spending, long-term investment, etc.

When a business owner hires employees or builds out their building, that is part of a long-term investment. It isn't charity.  I'm not going to sell my house or liquidate my assets in order to invest in long-term investments anymore than someone else is going to sell their house to purchase a CD (bank CD).

In fact, from the taxes, I liquidated a few of my investments early to help pay for them even though those investments would generate a long-term profit.

So no, it has nothing to do with charity. It has to do with managing capital, timing, and investments.

Reply #71 from Stardock Forums Top

This whole debate reminds me of Atlas Shrugged.  It's not what I would call a great piece of literature, and Ayn Rand's objectivism isn't what I would call a sound philosophy, but it does amply demonstrate what socialism in the US would look like.

I still keep thinking about how after Obama got elected, people were shown on the news talking about how they "wouldn't have to worry about their mortgages anymore" and how they "wouldn't have to worry about filling their gas tank anymore."  It makes me sick, honestly.  People clearly have no idea how the economy works.

As Brad has been saying, when the business owners are hit, it isn't the business owners who suffer.  When some idiot sues McDonalds because she (and it was a she, I'm not being sexist) spilled coffee on herself, McDonalds isn't paying for it.

Then there is the matter of incentive, which was brought up earlier:

Quoting taltamir, reply 30
You know what, I just thought of something, when obama makes due on his promises of wealth redistribution and other uses for "the government's money", the only remaining incestive to work rather then being a leech IS luxury items... Food, housing, even healthcare are all provided... so why work?Heck you can just borrow heavily and than get handouts for that too. but working and producing allows you to buy MORE fun stuff.
End of taltamir's quote

This is exactly why anyone who voted for Obama made an unwise decision, to say the least.  This is why socialism has never worked before, and why it will never work.  Hopefully Obama won't actually be able to fulfill all of his promises, but considering that the Democrats have a majority in both the House and Senate now...

At least if he does fulfill all of his promises, the roads in Michigan will be better.

Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting IQofSpam, reply 4
At least if he does fulfill all of his promises, the roads in Michigan will be better.
End of IQofSpam's quote

For the first year, then the money will run out cause the economy collapsed, and they will be left to deteriorate to dust.

Reply #73 from Stardock Forums Top

Hey, try to see a silver lining, hmm?  :annoyed:

Reply #74 from Stardock Forums Top

California is the Fifth largest economy in the world, and it's highways system is the crappiest I have ever seen, pot holes abound, every year there is a fight over the budget for the state, I keep wondering where all the tax money goes as there is always a shortage when it comes to schools, levees and highway repair. But the state legislature never has a problem voting themselves raises, and Caltrans which does most of the government work looks like this, one guy working, one guy sitting in a piece of heavy machinery, and 4 guys scratching their balls doing nothing.

Reply #75 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Moderateman, reply 7
California is the Fifth largest economy in the world, and it's highways system is the crappiest I have ever seen, pot holes abound, every year there is a fight over the budget for the state, I keep wondering where all the tax money goes as there is always a shortage when it comes to schools, levees and highway repair. But the state legislature never has a problem voting themselves raises, and Caltrans which does most of the government work looks like this, one guy working, one guy sitting in a piece of heavy machinery, and 4 guys scratching their balls doing nothing.
End of Moderateman's quote

 

Yeah thankfully the WI roads are good but we are one of the higer taxed states too... and in fact this state too is suffering from from a budget shortfall too... because of the homes that are being forclosed and there is now less people to pay those types of taxes.... there is never a surplus in this state and they send every last red cent they can get.

 

I do find you saying what you did about City/county workers.... is so true