Starbase Vs. Super Weapon

from Sins Forums

So, there is a new balance situation.


So, my friend builds this starbase in some space junk  at a bottleneck to the main part of his empire (he is advent) and basically camps all his forces there.  The moment anything of min tries to come through, his star base pops me with a stun ability that disables my phase drives so I cannot get past it and he just tears me to bits.  Great, thats how you play starbases!

 

How, I'm vesari, and I got me a super weapon that destroy's space ships and such... but, I cannot destry his fleet because it isn't orbiting a planet?    But...   the thing is stationary, shouldn't a cannon that explodes just outside the surface of the planet to wipe out ships nearby still be able to detonate without a planet nearby?   It used to not really matter, since you'd have to be a moron to want to fire upon a bunch of ships out in the middle of nowhere, they could just leave.  But with a space station can't move out of the way, I want to blow that thing to bits! This should be possible!

So, I come up with a new idea... the advent space station can only really stop a few of my ships, so I send in a small decoy fleet, then one he stuns it via auto-cast, I can blockade run with the rest of my armada.  I'll just fire my super cannons into the next planet... I'll swoop in, bring some planet destroyers with me (the ship that take out planets) and I'll be able to take that planet no problem since it didn't have much enemy culture on it somehow.  (this advent player didn't touch his culture for reasons later explained)  It too has a starbase, but the focus fire of not 1, not 2, but 3 of my canons will ensure there is NO defenses right?  I mean, sure the station might still be there since it has like 6000hp + shields, but it will be heavily damaged for sure.    NOPE!  it was almost at full health.  It took only like 2000 damage worth of shields and thats it.  my canon was rendered almost useless against it.  Being that I spent 24000 on the cannons, and I know he didn't spend that much on his station, they should at least dent the thing.

It was then pointed out to me, that my friend's super weapon was rendered even more useless (advent remember).  He didn't even bother getting culture upgrades because he knew that with 1 upgrade (so I guess about 4000 credits and the time it takes to build) my space station could lock down planets and stop all chance of conversion by culture.   Well, gee....   so advent's weapon is even more useless, because at least mine can take out turrets and hangers.

This is hardly fair.   I mean, sure, you don't want your precious star bases blown up because somebody rushed super-weapons, but you don't want to remove super weapons from the game either  (except Tec's because theirs is awesome:    2 of them focus fire on a planet, and the planet doesn't exist anymore  *thumbs up*).

I've always said that Advent's weapon should have a bit more direct responce... the only thing I ever really use it for is I shoot my own planets before an enemy tries to colonize it so that they can't.  But assuming that that is balanced, it isn't now that I think every since race can counter it with a space station.

 

40,209 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

This is hardly fair. I mean, sure, you don't want your precious star bases blown up because somebody rushed super-weapons, but you don't want to remove super weapons from the game either (except Tec's because theirs is awesome: 2 of them focus fire on a planet, and the planet doesn't exist anymore *thumbs up*).

superweapons are bad in all games where theyare implemented. get rid of them imo

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

The Kosutra cannon doesn't really deal lethal damage to orbital structures - it hurts them, sure, but one shot usually only gets 30-40% of structure hp.  It's the 3 minutes of downtime that matters - or rather, the combination of heavy damage and long downtime to structures with light damage and short (15 sec) downtime to ships in that gravity well.

But the real advantage is that it now also turns the target planet into a phase stabilizer node.  (I think that's a change in Entrenchment.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  I almost never play Vasari.)  You didn't need to blockade-run the starbase to the next planet - you could have shot the planet and jumped straight there.  For that matter, you could have shot at his home planet and jumped your fleet right into the middle of his empire.

Superweapons are supposed to break late-game deadlocks, so you're 100% right that building a Kosutra (nevermind 3!) should let you get past a chokepoint in some way.  But it accomplishes that by letting you invade any planet you want in 1 jump no matter where chokepoints have been set up, not by blowing all enemy defenders out of the sky.

Although starbase upgrades can prevent culture from decolonizing planets, that doesn't mean culture is useless.  Remember that the amount of resources you get from a planet depends on allegiance.  If your planetary allegiance drops to 0%, then that planet earns you 0 credits, 0 metal, and 0 crystal.  The starbase just lets you hold on until you make the hostile culture go away.  Culture can damage a player's position badly even if the player never actually loses a planet.  There's also the bonuses your ships get for being in friendly culture (or your enemy gets for having hostile culture over your planets).

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Evan, reply 2
But the real advantage is that it now also turns the target planet into a phase stabilizer node.  (I think that's a change in Entrenchment.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  I almost never play Vasari.)  You didn't need to blockade-run the starbase to the next planet - you could have shot the planet and jumped straight there.  For that matter, you could have shot at his home planet and jumped your fleet right into the middle of his empire.

 

I love that it turns into a phase stabi now, I was playing my friend and he didn't know that the cannon did that. Managed to take out his home planet and two others before he could get his ships back to his core planets.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I love the phase stabilizer effect. I just wish it lasted longer :(

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

target planet into a phase stabilizer node

REALLY!  I didn't notice that line of text.   Huh...  that changes them quite a lot.  

for the record, 3 of those super weapons will destroy almost all orbital structures.  2 will destroy almost all ships.

 

I wasn't claiming that culture was entirely useless, just that since it couldn't convert planets (an annoying effect to other players I've found) it does little else (its stops them from colonizing...  which isn't that much really.)

 

That brings up the question, what other additions were made?  I mean did the advent weapon change?  I didn't notice any change in text or see that comment anywher.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Why can't you take out his blockade?

What I've started to love doing is bringing a starbase constructor with me on every invasion.  At the start of the fight you start the base construction and just wait.  I've noticed it seems almost impossible to destroy a starbase during construction, so as long as you keep his fleet occupied you should be good.  Then when it's built start doing defense and weapon upgrades and you've just given yourself a very good chance.

Don't forget those new siege weapons too-- they fire outside of the range of starbases and are DEVESTATING to them.  4-5 of the TEK ones can level a fully upgraded starbase in minutes if not dealt with.  I think the Advent ones are pretty good too.

Focus fire on his starbase, take it down, now you have a starbase in this system and he doesn't and it's just a matter of out lasted him.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 5

target planet into a phase stabilizer node
REALLY!  I didn't notice that line of text.   Huh...  that changes them quite a lot.  

for the record, 3 of those super weapons will destroy almost all orbital structures.  2 will destroy almost all ships.

 

I wasn't claiming that culture was entirely useless, just that since it couldn't convert planets (an annoying effect to other players I've found) it does little else (its stops them from colonizing...  which isn't that much really.)

 

That brings up the question, what other additions were made?  I mean did the advent weapon change?  I didn't notice any change in text or see that comment anywher.
Actually, no. The Kostrua does pretty pitiful damage to ships and buildings unless they buffed it in Entrenchment. 800 each shot I believe to buildings. 200 to ships

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top



It was then pointed out to me, that my friend's super weapon was rendered even more useless (advent remember).  He didn't even bother getting culture upgrades because he knew that with 1 upgrade (so I guess about 4000 credits and the time it takes to build) my space station could lock down planets and stop all chance of conversion by culture.   Well, gee....   so advent's weapon is even more useless, because at least mine can take out turrets and hangers.
 

Have you actually read the wording of the loyalty/mini-govt upgrade on the starbases?  Because if so this whole issue is moot-- Starbases CANNOT stop culture revolts!  They can only stop you from bombing a planet out of existance.

I just played a game where exactly this happened-- I started losing a planet to culture, so I built a loyalty upgrade on the starbase only to find that once the allegience hit 0% I still lost the planet.  The wording of that upgrade specifically says it only will stop you from losing a planet to bombardment.  So while this wasn't done with the Advent super weapon, the same thing woudl happen.

 

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Tessian, reply 8

quoting post

It was then pointed out to me, that my friend's super weapon was rendered even more useless (advent remember).  He didn't even bother getting culture upgrades because he knew that with 1 upgrade (so I guess about 4000 credits and the time it takes to build) my space station could lock down planets and stop all chance of conversion by culture.   Well, gee....   so advent's weapon is even more useless, because at least mine can take out turrets and hangers.
 

Have you actually read the wording of the loyalty/mini-govt upgrade on the starbases?  Because if so this whole issue is moot-- Starbases CANNOT stop culture revolts!  They can only stop you from bombing a planet out of existance.

I just played a game where exactly this happened-- I started losing a planet to culture, so I built a loyalty upgrade on the starbase only to find that once the allegience hit 0% I still lost the planet.  The wording of that upgrade specifically says it only will stop you from losing a planet to bombardment.  So while this wasn't done with the Advent super weapon, the same thing woudl happen.

 
Well the ability is broken anyways so that doesnt prove anything. I thought it said bombardment and rebellion? Interesting, it would be nice if starbases could stop ALL types of planet loss.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

First, yes, the Kosutra's damage has been substantially increased in Entrenchment.  It looks like it deals a few thousand points of damage.  Orbital structures have high armor and aren't immediately incinerated, but do lose a little less than half their HP.

Second, it looks like the Novalith cannon also got a change - it now debuffs a struck planet with a long-lasting effect that reduces maximum population by 40%.  This is probably intended to make firing a single Novalith at a fully-fortified planet a better deal, since if you don't wipe out a planet completely with a Novalith shot, the planet will fully rebuild before you can fire again.

Third, the Advent superweapon has been changed... by a bug, which prevents it from actually spreading any culture.  Whoops!

Likewise, it seems the provisional government starbase upgrade just doesn't work at all right now... you can bomb a planet out from under an upgraded starbase.  It's probably intended to stop both bombardment and rebellion, but neither works at the moment.

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Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Likewise, it seems the provisional government starbase upgrade just doesn't work at all right now... you can bomb a planet out from under an upgraded starbase. It's probably intended to stop both bombardment and rebellion, but neither works at the moment.

That is what confused me.   because I was like "I took out planets under starbases by bombarding I thought" but its a bug.  That makes sense.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

If the provisional gov't/loyalty upgrade is broken then that's obviously an issue, but the description on it SPECIFICALLY only talks about saving your planet due to bombing.  I don't think it should be allowed to stop due to culture as really that's not something the starbase can stop.  The upgrade stops you from losing the planet to bombardment because there's an auxiliary government on the starbase to keep things running... but how would this help when you're losing your planet to culture?  At that point you have widespread revolts, having a 2nd government up on a starbase isn't going to help, if anything it should make the starbase vulnerable to a culture revolution too.