Rhishisikk Rhishisikk

Animal Husbandry (or, How Badly do you want those Bear Riders?)

Animal Husbandry (or, How Badly do you want those Bear Riders?)

Oddly enough from a technology thread.  I thought the idea merited mention as its own:

To what degree should players need to domesticate animals?  Obviously horses and griffons are in the mix, and I've heard mention of Bear Riders.  This gets me thinking: why not halfling boar-riders?  Battle Cattle?  Chickens of Doom?  Ravaging Rattlesnakes?

In other words, to what extent are the animals just threats to be exterminated, and to what extent can they be harnessed to strengthen one's army?  Look at bloodhounds and messenger pidgeons, each of which has changed war in their own way.  So what if the trees get angry and crush people?  If my diplomats can convince them to crush those (my enemy's) guys, why shouldn't I reap the benefits?  Why NOT have forestall orchards, where the young are raised and trained until ready for the front lines?

Oh, are the skeletons, zombies, and ghouls beginning to overflow from the graveyards AGAIN?  Okay, maybe I send in my heroes to remove the problem.  OR maybe I'm willing to sacrifice some of my people to train them for battle.  A mass of peasants with clubs, brass swords, and farm implements?  Oh my.  EAT THEM, MY MINIONS!  Does my morale and loyalty suffer?  Oh yes.  But who needs loyalty when you have troops that keep fighting when their heads are lopped off?

I would propose something SIMILAR TO Colonization.  You have a limited number of resources, which need to be divided between your populace and their animals.  Want sheep for that yearly wool bonus?  Low maintenance.  You want flesh-rending gryphons or bears to mount your elite archers upon?  Well, you may be looking at enough maintenance that you've MADE your army choice.  But having the joy of watching a thousand badgers mangle the 'prehistoric horde' of club-men my enemy sent in the early game to disrupt my economy?  Priceless.

I would recommend a slider system.  Possibly a single slider for the nation, which could be over-riden by the town sliders, with a button for ENFORCE THIS on the kingdom menu to make all city sliders agree.  Or an overall 'animals' slider, with percentages based on the animals I have access to. 

Hrm, possibly put these controls into a tab that only opens with Animal Husbandry research.  And then have higher techs for training different animals as mounts. 

Not complete yet, but I like where the idea is going.  When do we get enough knowledge to start our modding?

81,855 views 96 replies
Reply #26 Top

Personally I think that you should be able to convert one type of animal resource to another within reason; it should just be expensive and time consuming.  Two animals that rely on a similar biome should be interchangeable as you could gradually readjust the farming of one type of animal to another by introducing the new type and slaughtering the old.  This would be expensive and would take a while, however it has been done in the past (ie the near hunting to extinction of the buffalo, and the introduction of horses to the North American tribes) and would both enable players to create thematic armies and introduce realism (in addition to demonstrating mankinds ability to exterminate species we don't find particularly useful).  This would also be an element of changing the ground to fit your civilization better (no place for massive herds of bison or horse farms in Mordor.... bring on the Wargs).

Reply #27 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 22
[...]

I really dislike the idea of being able to convert one type of mount resource into another. Why should I be able to raise horses in bear caves, or bears in open pastures? Just because I want bear cavalry doesn't mean I should always be able to get them easily as soon as I want them. If I can't find copper, I'm not going to be able to make copper or bronze products; if I can't find bears then no bear cavalry.

Instead, I think mount resource tiles (and maybe all resource tiles) shouldn't produce a fixed number of resources. Instead it should depend significantly on the infrastructure I have developed to harvest that resource. If I set up a huge husbandry complex on my tile with horses, I should be able to produce a whole lot of horses. And maybe with mount resources, if you have the resource you can spread it to other appropriate tiles. With a system like this you can even set up your own mount resource through trade. If you trade for enough bears, you can choose to use them to breed more bears by building a bear-stable on an appropriate tile and sending the bears there. It should take a lot of time, though, otherwise mount-trading would become worthless fast.
My reasoning is as such that bears doesn't live in elaborate cave systems. Converting resources within reason would be a necessity to avoid having to deal with a specific mount limitation vs. general mount availability.

And I agree that resource tiles shouldn't produce a fixed amount, but I'm trying to work within the confines of what the developers have explained is in the game. I'm actually inclined towards the Civ-approach where one resource supplies your entire nation, but that's apparently not the way Elemental is going to go (and I don't mind it at all, it could be exactly the right thing).

Ultimately, what's important isn't wheter or not you can convert specific tiles, but that you're allowed to specialize, wheter it's for thematic reasons or because your play style favours X. For example, even if I'd almost exclusively try to use bears, I'd most likely want a chicken or two aswell, since they could be by far and wide the fastest mount for scouting. And I don't want any horses. At all. Even ferrying them to my cities as a resource is an affront to nature. Filthy, stupid, unimaginative, dolice horses.

Quoting lwarmonger, reply 1
Personally I think that you should be able to convert one type of animal resource to another within reason; it should just be expensive and time consuming.  Two animals that rely on a similar biome should be interchangeable as you could gradually readjust the farming of one type of animal to another by introducing the new type and slaughtering the old.  This would be expensive and would take a while, however it has been done in the past (ie the near hunting to extinction of the buffalo, and the introduction of horses to the North American tribes) and would both enable players to create thematic armies and introduce realism (in addition to demonstrating mankinds ability to exterminate species we don't find particularly useful).  This would also be an element of changing the ground to fit your civilization better (no place for massive herds of bison or horse farms in Mordor.... bring on the Wargs).

Why would this take time? Just pen those horses in and release the bears, dammit!

:D

Reply #28 Top

Lol... the zoos in my empire will certainly be more interesting than the zoos here on earth.  I don't want to see animals sleeping, I want to see them fighting it out as nature intended!

Reply #29 Top

Not sure if i like the idea of replacing the animal resource of one of your tiles. But as long it would require them to have a similar enviroment before being able to switch, i suppose it would be fine.

As a side note, i wanted to mention that if Luckmann finally gets his Bear Cavalry in the game, i should get my tiger cavalry too. :-"

Reply #30 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 25
Camels are smarter, tougher and meaner.  If they weren't flatfooted they'd be the mount of choice instead of horses, smelly or not.  That massive advantage in the desert is bloody worthless everywhere else.
It really depends. In all warm/arid areas, the camels are by far superior. The reason we so clearly favour the horse is that they are clearly superior in these temperate zones.

Quoting psychoak, reply 25
You're self limited, it doesn't have to be the case.  If you have more resources than you can harvest, your limitation is in utilizing them, not having access to them.  You don't have to be able to use all your animals, they probably shouldn't even function the same way.  If I were designing it, inherently undomesticated animals would be captured in the wild, gathered for their use.  Horses, an easily domesticated animal, would also be captured in the wild, but for the purpose of raising herds, not training for mounts themselves.  You could take your horses produced from that resource, and instead of using them for mounts, found another herd.  They could even have magic pertaining to the domestication of those animals not feasible to domesticate naturally, making the original resource access academic in the long run.
But at some point, the very mechanic to limit the access to a given resource becomes useless, if you have a continous surplus. If we don't limit the supply, we might aswell take the Civ-approach.
Quoting psychoak, reply 25
When resources have to be worked, they don't need to be so scarce that you're utilizing every resource you have.  An oddball resource conversion isn't necessary.
As I said, a continous, dependable surplus of whatever resource you desire at any one time defeats the purpose of limiting resources in the first place.
Quoting psychoak, reply 25
Key word, relatively.
I didn't use the word relatively.

Quoting psychoak, reply 25
Compare a horse to a cow and the answer is immediately clear.  Horses will open latches to get out of gates, they socialize in a friendly manner outside of mating, they're loyal to their owners when taken care of.  Cows eat, shit, and sleep.  That's about it.
The cow is indifferent. They munch their grass, eat, shit, and sleep. That's about it. Unless you chase them, they just don't care. Indifference isn't stupidity, that'd be like calling cats the dumbest animals of earth (they're just the most evil).

Quoting psychoak, reply 25
  Horses have outstanding range, you can raise and utilize them almost anywhere, from sub arctic conditions to the Sahara.  Their stupidity traits, like jumping into burning stables, are common among the herd animals similar to them as well.  When something tries to eat them, they run.  Panic in the face of danger is a safety measure for food.  They're not predators.
None of this has to do with what I argued. I even conceded that all animals are slaves to their instincts, but horses are the ones I can truly pen down as actively dumb.
 
Quoting psychoak, reply 25
Sticking with men of average size and real animals.  All cattle, some like the water buffalo are badasses, various similarly built animals from gazelles to zebra's, various deer. Remember, the wild horse wasn't the mount it is today from the start.  They started out smaller, stockier, and slower.  The gazelle lacks the bone mass to carry a full size man any useful distance, but they're about the same size as the wild horse were, with careful breeding they could make fantastic mounts with superior speed, acceptable endurance, and stupendous maneuverability.  Cats would work too if you could keep them from rolling when they fought.
No deer, or water buffalo, or gazelle, would ever be functional as a mount. The same goes for the Zebra, and most laughably, you bring up cats. Cats of any kind would never accept being mounted. None of the animals you mentioned can become anywhere near viable mounts - none of them can be truly domesticated. Just like (regrettably) the bear.

Quoting psychoak, reply 25
If you could tame one, a rhino would be sublime for war.  Hide thicker and tougher than an elephant with raw power far in excess of what traditional mounts are capable of.  Eight thousand pounds of 2 inch thick skin moving thirty miles an hour would put the fear of God into anyone, and it's got horns to top it off.  Full plate armor for rider and animal would be a negligible weight addition too.
Key word here is "if you could take one". You can't. It's just not a realistic mount, by a far shot.

Quoting psychoak, reply 25
If you toss size out the window and we have three foot tall midgit armies, everything from wolves to pigs get thrown in the mix.  Dwarves riding russian boars would be mean.  Plenty of hunters have been killed by those suckers.
Alright, now you're on about halflings and dwarves, and.. I just don't know what to say. I doubt you can realisticly field an army of midgets, even if you could domesticate the animal of choice - and boars. BOARS? Boars are IMPOSSIBLE to domesticate or tame. They're the very reason we have pigs.
Quoting psychoak, reply 25
As far as riding cows go, they were ridden before horses were.  They drew wagons before horses as well.  They lack sustained speed, so aren't useful as traditional cavalry.  You can however run over people on foot just fine with them, even a few of the domesticated breeds get pissed and try to run you down when you're working them.  They might have made it into military applications if they weren't vastly superior as food.
While OXES were used before horses, they were never used as mounts. They dragged carts, yes, but you're as hard pressed to direct them without considerable effort as the aformentioned.. well.. giraffes.

Quoting Wintersong, reply 4
Not sure if i like the idea of replacing the animal resource of one of your tiles. But as long it would require them to have a similar enviroment before being able to switch, i suppose it would be fine.

As a side note, i wanted to mention that if Luckmann finally gets his Bear Cavalry in the game, i should get my tiger cavalry too.
I'm completely up for that. XXXL-size Cats would also make for kickass non-magic mounts, perhaps with an inferior sustained speed, but with the possibility for stealth applications and pounce.

Reply #31 Top

I'm sure any herbivory that can support a human, could be rided passively with effort. And I was wrong about horses being totaly superior, has I forgot camels are better for big desert trips has they can live many days without water even under that climate. Also elephants are used in dense forests or savanah, has wild animals do not atack them (and the condutor). Its just that the horse are so superior generaly (especially for warfare, that is the case in this game (don't know why to be discussing the others)), that they barely compete unless under this few especific conditions. And I used this comparisson, for the point that, I think it is to much untrue for even a fantastic civilization (for they need to be beliaveble) to herd many different creatures to ride, like if none of them could prove far superior and be especially produced for riding. Lets have dinos, horses, griphons, bears and tigers, and I don't think that is beliaveble, why this many?. Tough, thinking on another way, this can be used separately in different matchs. To be riding many different things, feels just cosmetic and stupid. Lions sleep to much and like the bear would get tired fast, but cool for some; ride these instead of easily riding something avaliable for a long time, and that should be better, like a griphon or a steed, just because soldiers might be pretty on top of the lion. I don't like the idea of having different kinds of things only for cosmetic purposes, everything should have an strong gameplay element atached to it and feel beliaveble (and for that you need only few), unless you separate it.

An story like the Golden Compass, which have the armored bear tale, feels beliaveable because that is unique to that world, period. They are strong, they can travel a lot and their armor is magic. If you add any other animal to be competing with that tale, that would look dumbed down and not sound incredible or fantastic like a fantasy tale should be. Maybe that'd be Narnia, that is a huge mix of different magical things competing with none of them feeling truly unique, or especial. The mounts should be characterized and feel especial and magical, just a few should exist and be used. Its like the Dragons in elemental, in many games (not all) you can have many units riding one, or kill many of them, but here they will be truly epic since if 2 or 3 dragons supports you, means you won the game.

Why I ask for few mount types, is exacly because I really like mounts (no matter what type, if it is well thought and designed) and not a bunch of types that keep competing with each other with none of them feeling truly especial, when they could. And why keep asking for especific things as a kid asking for a toy? remember, a game is not only meant for one person, it must first be good for everyone, and majority don't care for especific things, but instead want a good thought out package.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting lwarmonger, reply 1
Personally I think that you should be able to convert one type of animal resource to another within reason; it should just be expensive and time consuming.  Two animals that rely on a similar biome should be interchangeable as you could gradually readjust the farming of one type of animal to another by introducing the new type and slaughtering the old.  This would be expensive and would take a while, however it has been done in the past (ie the near hunting to extinction of the buffalo, and the introduction of horses to the North American tribes) and would both enable players to create thematic armies and introduce realism (in addition to demonstrating mankinds ability to exterminate species we don't find particularly useful).  This would also be an element of changing the ground to fit your civilization better (no place for massive herds of bison or horse farms in Mordor.... bring on the Wargs).

This could work. However, if you have a horse resource tile with the capability of being transformed into a bear resource tile, you should have to acquire bears via some other means before you can start to convert the resource. IE if you already have a source of bears, or through trade.

My only problem with this is that, eventually, it might be too easy to have access to pretty much every type of mount out there. I'd definitely like to be able to use different types of mounts, but they'd be cheapened if it's too easy to access multiple types. Maybe it should be difficult to master the art of breeding and/or training different types of mounts? This could be done through the technology tree (breeding/training techs specific to each type of mount, and upgradable to improve quality), or through some other mechanism. This way you could choose to specialize in just a couple mounts and be really good with them, or to be broad but suffer from slower breeding and poorly trained mounts. 

Quoting FlyGuy7, reply 6
I don't like the idea of having different kinds of things only for cosmetic purposes, everything should have an strong gameplay element atached to it and feel beliaveble (and for that you need only few), unless you separate it.

I don't think most people here are clamoring for 20 different types of identical mounts that just look different. I would like to see something like 4-5 common mounts (like horses, camels, bears, cats, any other ideas?) plus another 4-5 rarer mount types (like pegasi, griffons, elephants, unicorns), or maybe more. ALL of these would be significantly different.

From the common mounts, horses would be the bar, camels would excell in deserts but be less effective elsewhere, bears would be the strongest in combat, cats could be better than horses and camels in combat but suffer from fewer movements points, etc.

From the rarer mounts, pegasi could be the fastest, griffons could be slower but stronger (both benefit from flight). Elephants could be extremely strong with average speed. Unicorns could be weaker than elephants but stronger and faster than the common mounts, plus some sort of magical bonus.

Quoting FlyGuy7, reply 6
And why keep asking for things as a kid asking for a toy? remember, a game is not only meant for one person, it must first be good for everyone, and majority don't care for especific things, but instead want a good package.

Because we ARE like kids asking for a toy (game). The whole point of these forums is to let stardock know what we want from this game. The only way to do that is to ask for the features that we each want. In the end it's up to Stardock which things to include and which not to, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention all the things we'd like to see.

Reply #33 Top

Luckmann, you do know this is a fantasy game right?  It's not a WW2 historical sim, midgit armies are entirely probable.  Even shipping completely devoid of standard fantasy fare, it can't be a month before some shmuck designs their own halfling/dwarf/leprechaun/whatever race.  Hell, it shouldn't be long before someone adds a mutated rat side into the mix.

 

The inherent untrainability, or your misguided perception of it anyway, of various animals is also irrelevant for the same reason.  Did you ever watch beastmaster?  Maybe a disney cartoon?

 

Edit:  Oh, and read back through the posts, I've already spelled it out twice so a third time wont help.  Resources don't need to be scarce if your limitation is in utilizing them instead of having access.

Reply #34 Top

Personally I would prefer for resources to be scarce (or at least have the option to have them scarce in much the same way one controls the galactic makeup at the start of Galciv) because 1) it makes things more realistic (the traditional limitations on the amount of cavalry fielded is the number of horses you can feed or armor you can make) and 2) it causes you to value the units you do manage to field.  You are going to treasure those heavily armored knights because their horses, armor, weapons and training is (or at least should be) expensive and time consuming to gather and create.  If I've got an army entirely composed of heavily armored knights because resources are everywhere, what do I care if I lose a few hundred of them?

Reply #35 Top

:thumbsup:


Edit: I don't know why it does that, so I don't know how to fix it. It's just another one of this forum's really wierd quirks.

And FlyGuy7 commented on cosmetic reasons and gameplay mechanics; Of course every mount should be different, not just cosmeticly. Just like horses are very fast (+2 movement, for example?) and give the "Charge" ability(?), Bears could confer extra health and a "Maul" ability, Cats could be the only Stealthable mounts with a "Pounce" ability.
Otherwise, there'd be no point in having different mounts. Why would the vast majority of people that seem to have no problem with their nations thematic approach, but play to 'win', bother with a long process of converting habitats, researching different animal husbandries(sp?), and so on?

:moon:

Quoting psychoak, reply 8
Luckmann, you do know this is a fantasy game right?  It's not a WW2 historical sim, midgit armies are entirely probable.  Even shipping completely devoid of standard fantasy fare, it can't be a month before some shmuck designs their own halfling/dwarf/leprechaun/whatever race.  Hell, it shouldn't be long before someone adds a mutated rat side into the mix.

The inherent untrainability, or your misguided perception of it anyway, of various animals is also irrelevant for the same reason.  Did you ever watch beastmaster?  Maybe a disney cartoon?

Edit:  Oh, and read back through the posts, I've already spelled it out twice so a third time wont help.  Resources don't need to be scarce if your limitation is in utilizing them instead of having access.
You should read through things before you respond. We were talking realisticly.

Otherwise, how could I possibly support the notion of giant chicken mounts, bear mounts, tiger mounts, and so on?
For the purpose of the game, there's a huge wad of animals that I wouldn't mind riding at all (although giraffe would probably be taking it a bit far, even for me).

:)

And I still agree on the point that resources doesn't need to be scarce, but if the issue is to utilize them, it defeats the purpose of making them scarce to begin with - it would defeat the already settled-on system in place. My suggestion on converting, again within reason, mount resources from one to another, builds on the system we know is in place, wheras the "defunct utilization instead of scarcity" would require an overhaul of the economic model of the game since it'd render the current model useless.

 

Reply #36 Top

Did Stardock at least pronounced about mounts? Like how they envision it? I like that players can give suggestions and all, but I also would like to know their suggestion first. You guys know that esay like: Do not bother the artist, or something? (I'm making it) I know this is a suggestion section, but I mean about hearing what they have to say first and how they envision before anything. I have a suggestion about players and they prefered mounts, but I don't even know what they think about the mounts ingame yet nor do you. Also isn't there something sighly different between a suggestion section and a wish list? It would feel more suggestive after knowing what they wanna do, and then we give what could be better. Get what I mean? Not saying anyone can't ask, or should stop, just that would be more practical and at least we would know what we are talking about.

Reply #37 Top

Quoting FlyGuy7, reply 11
Did Stardock at least pronounced about mounts? Like how they envision it? I like that players can give suggestions and all, but I also would like to know their suggestion first. You guys know that esay like: Do not bother the artist, or something? (I'm making it) I know this is a suggestion section, but I mean about hearing what they have to say first and how they envision before anything. I have a suggestion about players and they prefered mounts, but I don't even know what they think about the mounts ingame yet nor do you.
Well, we can't wait for what Stardock wants to say, because then we'd have to wait until the finished game comes out, to see how it all fits together properly.

But no, Stardock haven't mentioned anything on mounts. There's horses, but nothing about any variance.

Reply #38 Top

Ok thanks, I edited it to explain better.

Reply #39 Top

We're gamers. Developers are counting on us to come with suggestions. They're counting on us drawing conclusions. They're counting on us to whine, bitch and moan.

So I say, I say; Stardock wants YOU, to brainstorm! Bitch and moan, NOW! It's your CIVIC DUTY!

;P

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 14
We're gamers. Developers are counting on us to come with suggestions. They're counting on us drawing conclusions. They're counting on us to whine, bitch and moan.

So I say, I say; Stardock wants YOU, to brainstorm! Bitch and moan, NOW! It's your CIVIC DUTY!

 

Well, imho he's correct that suggesting things before the beta comes out is a bit pointless, since most likely StarDock has allready decided on its concept for the beta and will really listen only to ideas which will work with other preexisting concepts which we'll experience in the beta. Since we currently know almost nothing about the game, our speculation isn't really useful since we can't know how it would work with the other parts of the game.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Vandenburg, reply 15
Well, imho he's correct that suggesting things before the beta comes out is a bit pointless, since most likely StarDock has allready decided on its concept for the beta and will really listen only to ideas which will work with other preexisting concepts which we'll experience in the beta. Since we currently know almost nothing about the game, our speculation isn't really useful since we can't know how it would work with the other parts of the game.
Speculating is a bit useless, but making suggestions and arguing over said suggestions is good throughout the entire creative process.

This, for example, is one of those things that I could imagine would be very hard to add properly once beta have started. It needs to be considered relatively early on, before some decisions are final.

Reply #42 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 16
This, for example, is one of those things that I could imagine would be very hard to add properly once beta have started. It needs to be considered relatively early on, before some decisions are final.

While that's true, we don't know what kind of system they have allready in place, so we've no idea how sensible our suggestions are, if they would be totally contrary to what they envision for the game or if it would fit very well.

So I don't think they'll change anything they've now in place or will add until the beta and then they'll listen to feedback and consider ideas.

Doesn't mean that speculating isn't fun, I'm just not very optimistic that they'll able to use any suggestion until we've the beta in our hands and give them feedback based on that. :\

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Vandenburg, reply 17

While that's true, we don't know what kind of system they have allready in place, so we've no idea how sensible our suggestions are, if they would be totally contrary to what they envision for the game or if it would fit very well.

So I don't think they'll change anything they've now in place or will add until the beta and then they'll listen to feedback and consider ideas. 

But we don't know what they have in place now. For all we know that haven't really started to work on the mount system. If we all followed the thought process: "well, Stardock might have already locked in a certain mechanic to deal with X, so I shouldn't bother making suggestions about it because they probably won't change it, at least until beta," then no one would be suggesting ANYTHING.

So I agree that suggesting changes about things that SD has already told us about (like there will be 2 races divided into 6 factions each) is silly at this point, I think that suggesting features and mechanics that we have little or no information about is still worthwhile. I f SD didn't intend to use any of our suggestions at this stage in development, then they wouldn't have opened the forums so soon.

Quoting Luckmann, reply 10

I completely agree, except on the point that it may cheapen mounts. You say "My only problem with this is that, eventually, it might be too easy to have access to pretty much every type of mount out there." which I just don't understand. If you start converting the majority of your mount resources into a specific mount resource, you'll also be shooting yourself in the foot over versatility. You'll still have the same amount of total mount production (or availability, if you just stock up on them) - it's just that it'll all be of the same kind. Versatility is the original stock, where you have a few horses, a few bears, and so on. Then you have "pretty much every type of mount" - it's just that you maybe have very few of the exact one you want, for whatever reason.

I think you misunderstood my point. I want it to be exciting to be able to include a new mount in my army. It should be a Big Deal (it adds significant versatility to your military). I also want each game to play differently, so I want different mounts to be easily available each time. In order for it to be a big deal, it needs to be difficult to gain access to lots of different types of mounts.

If I happen to find a lot of horses and some cats, I shouldn't be able to convert half the horses into bears, because that cheapens the different mounts and it makes it too easy to be versatile, when it should really be something you have to strive for. If you could do that, there may as well just be a generic mount resource, and when you develop it you choose what type of mount you want to raise there. Personally I don't like that at all. I think that IF stardock decides to make mount resources convertible, then they should make it a very big decision with serious repercussions, so that it isn't something you do all the time in order to get the mount of the week.

If I happen to only have horse and bear mounts available to me, then I need to think twice about invading that neighboring desert nation with tons of mamelukes. If I could convert half my abundant horses to camels, even if it takes time, it would cheapen the versatility of mounts because everybody could make use of all of them, and everyone would choose the best one for a specific circumstance. It should be exactly like if I find myself in a situation with lots of copper but no iron, or the other way around. Being able to easily convert between mount types would be like being able to change one type of metal to the other. It would make every game play the same in that area.

+1 Loading…
Reply #44 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 18

 I want it to be exciting to be able to include a new mount in my army. It should be a Big Deal (it adds significant versatility to your military). I also want each game to play differently, so I want different mounts to be easily available each time. In order for it to be a big deal, it needs to be difficult to gain access to lots of different types of mounts.


They did say that having fantastic beasts in your army was a 'big deal' in this game.  And the fantastic stables of MoM meant that you could get fantastic creatures as mounts.  Since this game is supposed to be the spiritual closest thing to MoM we are going to get;  putting 2 and 2 together, I assume there will be fantastic mounts and they will be a big deal.

Reply #45 Top

I would suspect fantastic mounts only for your heroes, and not common there either with the stock game content.

Think big cats would probably make for pretty bad mounts with their twisty flexible spines.

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Nights, reply 20


Think big cats would probably make for pretty bad mounts with their twisty flexible spines.

Well, I think the idea is that those who ride them are either thin and flexible themselves (not actually putting much weight on any 1 particular part of the back) or you have an especially large cat and you find a place that is mostly stable (like on the head/neck or between the shoulder blades if possible.  I've seen a lot of cat riders that are very forward on the cat.)

+1 Loading…
Reply #47 Top

This game will follow the lines of MOM and others alike, not Colonization. Map is bigger and exploration is more emphased. And I think you guys distorted what TC was proposing, that was a big gameplay change.

Something has turning one animal into another (or converting tiles) is unlogical, not fun and hurts exploration. If you only want a specific resource, probably you can because it seems there will be a Bestiary to set the creatures. Or easy yet, if you just want to stick with something all the time, cheat; up to dragons you might have everything you want. Normaly allow to modify an animal tile is not a feature that would feel good or be important for majority. I doubt they would do something like this and really hope not.

Reply #48 Top

I like the idea of a stables where your domesticated animals are grown (not just horses); I CAN, however, easily see the problem if your worgen riders are stabled at the same place as your Chickens of Doom.

Naturally, plains aren't where you want to raise bears; caves and forests are better.  And yes, you're probably talking some form of charm spell to help domesticate them.  But it shouldn't be that much harder than domesticating gryphons, another free-willed and violent animal. 

And YES, I'm saying that lots of the animals are RARE.  But we've seen elephants, alligators, snakes, and even attempts at training DOLPHINS for war in the real world.  In a fantasy world, how much easier is that going to be?  Trust me, if I have the spare workers (and I hope to) and I find a small fuzzy bunny resource, you can bet I'm going to use those bunnies to help defeat my enemies, if only by supplying cuddly pets to raise morale throughout my empire.  However, if somebody wants to transform their bunnies into Rabbits of Rampage (enlarge, carnivore transformation, mental cruelty), they should have that option.

And if *I* get 2 horse, 2 bear, and 1 skyshark resource, you WILL see a variety of cavalry units.  Even if I just (intellect upgrade) the bears and let them wade into battle without riders.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting Rhishisikk, reply 23
I like the idea of a stables where your domesticated animals are grown (not just horses); I CAN, however, easily see the problem if your worgen riders are stabled at the same place as your Chickens of Doom.

Hey, those animals will do exactly what nature intended... fight it out for our amusement.  The revenue you can gain from selling seats means you can buy your enemies off!

Reply #50 Top

Quoting Rhishisikk, reply 23
And YES, I'm saying that lots of the animals are RARE.  But we've seen elephants, alligators, snakes, and even attempts at training DOLPHINS for war in the real world.

Actually, dolphins and sea lions have been successfully trained by the US and Israeli navies (and some others) to do a variety of tasks. The two that I'm aware of are sea mine detection and retrieval, and anti-swimmer defense. Their natural sonar abilities are much better than our sonar technology, at least when it comes to differentiating people from objects. They have not, however, been trained as mounts (although captive dolphins do let people hang on to them). It doesn't make sense to use dolphins as mounts, though, because it makes it more difficult for the dolphin to swim and maneuver, and our individual underwater propulsion systems aren't too shabby.