I have read most of this thread, people are the most whingiest twerps who are having a cry over the developer's right to protect their intellectual property, I don't give a crap if impulse acts as a technological protection measure, and something that people never seem to get is you do not own the bloody software or the IP, the customer only has the right to play the game. 

I am not for draconian DRM but it was well stated numerous times that patches will be directly released through impulse numerous times, when impulse is launched.  Patches are a privlege not a right, if you want to get patches you must follow the requirements that the developer demands.

hurf durf they have the right to replace your game executable with a popup hamster too

It's not a debate about natural rights. It's a debate about whether the policy will prompt some people to no longer have interest in titles. If people feel shafted by it they won't buy SD products just like if people feel shafted by EA or whatever they won't buy the game either.

You are assuming to much...  Not only have I bought both the game and expansion in digital and hardcopy, but I have a 6 mbit/sec connection as well..   and I totally agree with the original post.

I want control of what I do and when I do it.  Last year I was in a position where I had NO internet access at all except if I went someplace like the library.   What do people do then?   You need to realize that if this trend continues where software is tied to internet access, basically you loose control and the companies control you and when can and cannot access what YOU want to play, use or do.

Very much like the banking system right now.. they hold all of us under their thumbs by not giving out loans..   I just tried to buy a new motorcycle..  have no debt except one car payment...  Everything else is paid off fully.  Have perfect credit...  income 4K per month AFTER bills paid.   Dealer said all three banks they tried decline to approve..  then he told us to get down... ALL 43 applications they had over the weekend... all were declined for loans.

If we continue to let software develop force us to have internet connections, force us to require some connection just to use what we paid for.. eventually you might find yourself in a situation where you cannot play or use something because 1) no internet connection, 2) technical issues or 3) the company went broke and out of business.

Then what do you do with something you bought and cannot use?  No I want full access and ability to control that which I paid for.

Actually you are wrong no matter what a license says.  People DO own the game they purchase, the compiled exe and the manual.  They do NOT own the intellectual property, ideas, source and rights to those.

A game developer nor any other developer can walk in and remove or take away any software package you legally purchased.  People do not bother looking at the law anymore, they simply read what someone wants them to and then they believe it hands down.

BTW, I have and do commercial beta testing and software dev so I know exactly how this works.   For a software developer to claim you do not 'own' what you paid for because it is software is ludicrous.  That is like saying that you do not own your car because the software in the nav system or the code in the computer that controls the car is not yours.

You pay for YOUR personal copy of a running active software package.  THAT you own and NO software company can take it away from you period.  As I said, you do NOT own any source rights, intellectual code or idea rights etc etc.

If this were not true a company could enter your system any time and erase it if they wanted.  They cannot do that because it is illegal to do so.   If you did not own your car and the company that wrote the code making it work decided they did not want you using their code, could they delete the code from your cars computer?  No.  it is illegal for them to do that.

PEOPLE are giving companies WAY to much power... and much of it is due to people who do not understand or know the law or are too lazy to stand up and say NO.

If your argument were right, then since MS stole some code from me once upon a time I should be able to just enter their offices and source codes and delete my code right?   Yea right...    I would love to see that happen.   I would be hauled away before I got passed the reception desk.
 
It matters not what any license text says about the product you bought not being 'yours' after you legally paid for it.  That text is wrong with exception again to the source code, intellectual ideas and property etc.   But as for the copy of the exe, manual and anything else included in hardcopy in the package you purchased, it is YOURS free and clear.

Oh, boy this is fantastic. You are saying customers are treated like pirates until they prove to be legal trough Impulse then?

I say, why not jail everybody buying a knife, for if he commits a murder? Where is the presumption of innocence?

I bought SOASE -at retail, no digital distribution- for three reasons:

1) I like it.

2) It was said to me it had no DRM

3) i'm against any form of DRM, i do not buy games with DRM.

Actually, the second point is false. SOASE does have DRM, not in direct form, not draconian, but their patches do have DRM and it is Impulse.

When i installed Impulse it said me i needed to update from Internet Explorer 6.0 to Internet Explorer 7.0, and i'm a Firefox user. Can you imagine what i thought about?

And i have another concern about Impulse. In the future, if i reinstall SOASE in a fresh install, how would i get the latest patch if Stardock does not exists anymore or there is no authentication servers for SOASE? And don't tell me about promises from Stardock saying they will put a standalone patch, because when a company runs out of money they are in no position to do further investment in a game not giving benefices any more, think about ten years from now.

It would be fixed by having the posibility to backup the patch downloaded by Impulse, but Impulse prevents this by design. They are trying to avoid the possible spread of functional standalone patches from legit users and this takes me to the question about customers being treated as pirates. In reality Stardock do not trust on we, legal customers. They do not trust on Impulse certificated legal customers neither. If not, why not enable a "backup patch" option in Impulse and with this patch be able to update the game without Internet nor Impulse?

I think these are valid concerns. Think about. We buy the right to play the games, but not for limited time. Some one of you can to think on EULAS, but the EULA can be read only after opening the package -we are talking about retail here, remember?- and a opened game package can not be returned to the shop.

I don't blame Stardock, I don't blame Impulse, this is only my feedback, if it counts for something at all.

Thank you for reading me and sorry my english.

I'm a firefox user too...who cares if you have to install IE 7?  You don't ever have to use it, just install it and forget about it.  Maybe I'm nuts, but I love Impulse, it's so easy, it tells me when I have available updates, I don't have to go on the internet and manually download anything.  It's fast and easy. 

Don't listen to these haters, stardock.

A 'backup patch" option doesn't work because Impulse to my understanding doesn't use patches.  From what I know it does a comparison between your files and the ones on Impulse and then just downloads the ones that have been changed.

You can get up to 1.05 in stand alone patches.

About your point 2, Stardock openly admits its patches and Impulse are a form of DRM.  The no DRM you heard about is no DRM on the retail copy, which is how Stardock has alway been(and they have never said otherwise).

Frogboy himself will tell you that Stardock is not anti-DRM, they are anti-stupid DRM.

Also, about your point 3: you do realize that a CD check is a form of DRM right?

I hate IE and use Firefox and I have no problem keeping IE updated.  Just don't use it if you don't like it.  That argument against Impulse has to been one of weakest I have ever heard.

please explain how this is a DRM someone please do (cant beleive this is still going)

Impulses offer:

Updating patchs for you (true to keep up to date to play online Impulse is a must) 

Damage your disc and dont want to buy a new disc Download it for free whenever you want (sins doesnt require a disc to play only rquired for Install)

once updated close Impulse and play (impulse is not required to play the game)

DRM:

2 years free download then buy an extension of 5 years

(Steam) needs to run in the background to play games (does use memory up slowing computers down)

thats the DRM point sorted Piracy now

Piracy is copying of software which is licenced by the companies involed basicly your cutting into they cash flow which keeps they company running which pays the people for there work they done and brought to you on your desktop/laptop and to create future games.

 and what unknown said every game now has DRM during the registerion process for online and updates 

that covers it im not going to write a thousand lines to prove a point

Yes please, do not listen those paying for the games.

In the Eropean Union, Microsoft was punished for to include IE with Windows. It was qualified as monopolistic behaviour. Now IE is mandatory, not by Microsoft, it is mandatory by a third company. Well, may be this requirement is not the worst think in the world, but annoyed me at the time

Yes it is, but a form of DRM not stopping me playing the game in the near and distant future for sure.

Yes, but how much will you be willing to bet that the same people moaning about Impulse are also running Steam? I don't know ANY gamers that doesn't use Steam in some capacity, and yet there's titles out there that MANDATE the install of a 3rd party STORE to let you play the game - didn't we used to call that Adware?

Steam is as bad as Impulse, in different ways: the difference is that one let you know in advance you needed it.

If you want anyone to take you seriously, cut the melodramatics. And no, Impulse is not required to play the game. There's nothing, anywhere, that says you're owed patches.

first off, i really do not think there is anything with the idea of DRM, that is, if someone wants to ensure their property isnt being stolen from them, good for them, i totally agree

all these people who hate DRM, pick any profession you like, even your own, and tell me if you would like your income stolen from you because someone didnt want to pay for u to change their tire, or didnt want to pay for you to write that legal document for them, or didnt want to pay for the life saving surgery, would you like it? DRM is a perfectly reasonable way for a company to ensure it is being payed for its work.

so, by that point alone, everyone here who is complaining about DRM are plain and simple idiots and jerks. sorry for the name-calling, i really am and i try not to do it in forums, but honestly, you are complaining about the right for a person to ensure he is payed for his effort! lets see you go home without enough money to buy food for your family because some little prick can provide what you do for 10% or less of the price you charge!

however, i also think that DRM that makes it harder to play the game than it is to give birth or breathe in outer-space is wrong. i once bought a retail version of Crysis Warhead, but couldnt play it for 2 months after i bought it because the DRM required me to connect to the internet... which i didnt have at the time. THAT is stupid.

someone complained that he was in a position where he had no internet for 2 months or so except at the library etc... well... thats all well and good, but if you have no internet, you cant even play online, let alone download... that isnt Impulse/Ironclad/Stardock's fault or problem, its yours. you can still play the game without internet, i know, i play on a laptop, and like i said, i had many times where i was without internet for months at a time. so sure, i didnt have access to the latest updates or MP games... but that has nothing to do with Impulse, its to do with the fact i had no internet. this thing of having no internet is a complete and utter moot point

that said. Sins doesn't use DRM. you install the game, i dont think it even has a serial key... and you can play without the disk or anything. im sure we all know this! that is a lack of DRM.

however, no matter how much you test a game, there will always be a need for patches, either because of bugs, or because a large part of the playing community thinks that X should be changed to Y because of Z. fine... if you dont want to play online and only want to play AI games by your lonesome with the original recepie settings (i.e. Carriers support 1 squadron not 2) fine, then you have no problem....

but if you want to play online, you will need patches, so suck it up! like someone said, patches are not a god-given right!

i have to say, i would prefer Impulse to having to manually download patches from a website any day. here, i log on, press a button, go off and watch tv, come back and play Sins straight away.

to be honest, i dont know what you are complaining about... you want to download patches for Sins right? all Impulse wants you to do is confirm you bought and own a copy of Sins.... you have done that already right? i mean... why would you be downloading patches for a game you dont have? and if you have a pirated version, then FUCK OFF (yes, fuck off, because you dont deserve the respect for anything else) stop complaining, and stop waving your rights for something you didnt even have the decency to pay for!

as for the IE 7 issue... i use IE 7, i dont really care about the diffs between the two, but i do have Firefox installed, because it still has a passive effect on the comp (i.e less spam) so what do you care if you have to install IE7, then leave it on your comp doing nothing... i mean, you already have IE6 there doing the same thing... so why complain you wimp? its like having microsoft silverlight installed... i have NO idea what it does, but it allows me to view certain webpages... great... a few MB's of space on my HD what do i care, so grow up!

honestly... Impulse is not stupid DRM, it is their right to ensure pricks like you dont try and steal their source of income. just be glad it isnt so bad that you need a disk, a serial, internet, a third party program, a barcode scan, a fingerprint id and someone with a flashlight crawling up your ass making sure you are legit. Count your blessings, and stop whinging

The only DRM in the game is the CD-key, which is more or less REQUIRED for proper multiplayer gameplay. DRM or no DRM, you'd still have the key, so that you can have a unique account, and most importantly, so you can be banned if need be. This is why you don't need the key until you try to play online.

Do they REALLY care that they have to register a key with Impulse once to get an update? No, I don't think they do - they do it all the time with Steam and every other game they've owned. To these fools, the DRM argument is simply a means to an end. If your key/Impulse weren't tied to patches any more, they wouldn't give a shit if it were running Starforce.

But personally I think they're all idiots and / or pirates.

There is no "melodramatics" nor do I really care if anyone on the illustrious center of intelligent debate "Sins of a Solar Empire forums" takes me seriously. I'm "owed" patches if the game is broken and I shouldn't have to be subjected to a bloated, Play-Skool downloader pushing games I'll never buy to do so. Game is broken? Fix it. You don't fix it with conditions. You fix it. If you want to discourage pirates, you don't hamper your customers. You tell the pirates they can't play in the ICO carefully managed matchmaking sandbox and they have to hang out in the cornfield like every other developer has done for years.

I don't care about analogies to Steam. Steam is a piece of shit. I also don't care about DRM, SecuROM or whatever is completely fine with me, I'm not a FOSS Slashdot-posting moron who whines about Big Software. The Stardock approach has been that of smoke and mirrors re: DRM whether they want to claim they're against "intrusive DRM" or not: they purposefully introduced a buggy beta version of a downloader while simultaneously discontinuing standalones in the middle of the game's lifespan then hamhandedly attempted to justify it with a bunch of transparent excuses.

And that's what's ultimately the stupidest thing about this. Stardock has claimed that putting patches behind CD keys (which is okay but a little over the top) is because they plan to support Sins like Galciv II. So far that hasn't been done and expansions adding such innovative features as mines (that could be modded in anyway with proper support) have been $10. FPS and RTS titles both have been using online authenticated CD key checks for, what, a decade now? That's not enough to stop those scary pirates? Or is Impulse just..a..convenient way to sell more games? A shocking conclusion. But whatever, I guess this is the kingdom of the white knights: "fuk da haters u dont dsrrve patche sur all pirates its conveninet steam steam lol"

I don't know what is happening here. It is like you, DRM evangelists, being educated from chilhood to be mindless consumers.

No ofenses, but if i can be named idiot or pirate i can say this much more respectfull.

When i buy a game i buy the right yo play it, and i buy the right to play it for ever. If i want replay SOASE after, ten years, or twelve years, or fifty or whatever time, i have the right to do so, if i payed for it.

All online authenticated based DRM does not ensure the right i have as paying consumer. If the servers for authentication are dismantled, there will be no posibility to patch the game, because they do not provide a standalone patch we would keep safe and sound to use in a distant future. You are left with a inferior product.

At this time, all online authenticated material is a rental. Only DRM based on client side components may ensure you will be able to play for ever. I'm talking here about true CD-Keys, verified by the client install, not verified online or CD checks, performed by the game itself.

Online verification for the online part it is ok, because you will need the online servers in order to play online games, but online checks/activations and so on for single player are a bad thing.

About the "no owed patches", Yeah, is up to the developper/publisher launch patches or not, but if they launch patches i must be able to patch the game each time i need to patch, every time i reinstall, not only while the authentication servers are up and running.

All these permissive, not consumer friendly attitudes, are driving the consumers right to the trash. I don't know what are you thinking and how much value you are giving to your hard earned money.

I don't like Impulse, but i don't like Steam neither nor SecuROM online, nor Starforce. At the end of day, the unique place to buy consumer friendly games will be GOG DOT COM and I have begun to vote with my wallet yet.

you say once auth servers are dismantled, there wont be a possibility to patch the game... once auth servers are gone, Stardock etc wont be providing support for the game... which means there wont be any patches to update, so i dont kow what you are complaining about

CD-Keys and SecuROM have been around for how long? do you know how many ways and how easy it is to get around those security meaasures? a KeyGen and a Crack and you are on your way. regardless, Impulse and Sins do not require online checks for you to play, what are you talking about? to update yes, but not to play.

You want to be able to update when its convienient for you? how selfish can you be. yes, its nice, but i mean, shit happens, a server, like everything breaks down. sometimes it needs to be taken offline for maintenance, hell, if there's a blackout where the server is, it'll also go down. so grow up and stop whining. and to be honest, they are up and running more often than not

In my opinion, crappy, Draconian DRM makes it hard to play the game, while good DRM makes it hard to copy the game. While Impulse may or may not be good DRM, it certainly isnt crappy, Draconian DRM. so shut up and be happy about it

I think you did not understandme well.

The version on my purchased SOASE DVD is 1.05, the latest one is 1.16.nn. After ten years from now, if there is no Stardock nor Impulse auth servers, i will be unable to patch a new installation from 1.05 to 1.16.nn

 I mean, may be Stardock does not launch more patches after 1.16, may be the game support will end at 1.16, but as paying customer, i'm entitled to patch to the latest version just before the support being terminated -aka latest patch in existence-, and if there is no auth servers, nobody will be able to patch to the latest released version. This behavior is very different to the traditional way, where you would download the 1.16.nn patch from a web page and, after the end of Stardock and the end of the support for SOASE, you would patch to 1.16 because you copied the downloaded patch to CD and you keep the patch in your closet.

Yes it is very easy for pirates just run a crack and get rid of any protection, but, There is no need to lessen my rights as consumer, selling me a rental like titles protected by SecuROM online, or mess with my setup like Starforce Kernel drivers, or limit artificially the life of a product, with only downloadable online authenticated patches.

I'm not upset by events as maintenance time or sporadic downs, i'm concerned about to have a coaster -the unusable DVD- in my closet when there will be no auth servers.

I don't like any type of DRM, draconian or not. I want the full product, the full time because i payed the full price. DRM only upsets to paying customers because, at the end of day, the pirate does not care if the pirated version is 1.05, 1.16 or 2.25, the pirates download many things and they do not play all these downloads and if they are unable to play, they move to the next download.

I don't need grow up, because i'm 41 years old. I play games since the Atari 2600, i'm a paying customer since those days, and i don't like how the industry is treating us lately.

thanks for saving me the time it takes to type

The issue is not with DRM.  DRM is fine.   Companies have the right to protect thier IP.  I say this as a customer who's bought both Sins and Demigod.  

What is not fine is when companies resort to measures to protect thier IP that break *other* laws and could potentially damage a user's compuer.  See also:  Electronic Arts and it's use of SecureROM, which revokes a user's administrative rights to his own system, and requires manual removal. 

Impulse doesn't do that.  I don't have to have Impulse installed to play a game.   I don't have to have it running.   When I shut it off, nothing stays running in the background.

I don't even have to have an internet connection.  When I first got Demigod I fired it up and played a few skirmishes before I rememberd that I needed to register it on Impulse to get updates.  Then I ran into the whole "invalid CD Key" debacle which was caused by overloaded servers.  Which was, admittedly, a headache.  But a short-lived one that has seen been easily rectified.

Guys, the problem with DRM was always:

1) It harms your computer

2) It violates ownership rights.

Neither of these things is true with Impulse and Stardock's setup.   If I don't have internet, I am not prevented from accessing the game that I paid for.  It will not harm my computer, either.

Sure, I don't have access to updates.. but guess what?  Stardock doesn't owe you any updates.  They are not required to provide them, anywhere.  You're *getting* a full, complete game in the box that will play and be enjoyable.    You paid the full price for the game and are getting the full game.  Updates are a bonus, not a right.

Also, as a side note:  What's with all the whining about connectivity issues and initial bugs?   Aren't you guys *used* to this by now?  The same sort of thing happened when Microsoft launched Halo 3 and Xbox-live was spotty for a while.   This sort of stuff happened when a release is way more successful than anticipated.    I don't think all the excessive whining is really called for .

And seriously, if you want a game where you own EVERYTHING about the game and nobody else has any control over any aspect of what you do...

Sorry, that's what freeware is for.  Stardock doesn't make freeware.   There are plenty of really good Freeware titles on the nets, though.  Like Gunroar:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~cs8k-cyu/windows/gr.html

Or Wesnoth:

http://www.wesnoth.org/

Or better yet, buy a Chessboard and just find someone to play chess with.   I guaruntee that nobody will ever ask you to register or prove that you didn't pirate any of your wooden chess pieces, whether they be made of wood, plastic, or metal. 

Its k

Please, would you reply with some arguments instead nonsense and disrespectful behaviour, or maybe you haven't any argument at all?

I have said yet why i'm upset and i'm not the only one. Impulse is fine for you, great, but for me will be the last game from Stardock. I have right to choose and i have choosen not give my money to systems like this.

When you unique resource is to insult instead a civilized dialog you are proving to have no arguments. For me, some of you are a bunch of uneducated consumers, blindly waiving their rights just in favour of a company.

It is not worth the hassle trying to talk with you in educated form. Some of you are not capable of any constructive/respectful conversation at all.