Altarian Start Strategies.

Biggest thing I've noticed on all fronts is to just let the initial colony(ies) sit till you have more people, at least till you get "Recruiting center" - Upgrade your colony ships to 750m population pigs - They're slow(er), but I think what you lose in speed you get back in starting colonies up faster, though I'm sure some hypercephalic genius here has done the math about when speed is preferable to initial colony size.

I have yet to actually try the tactic of racing towards Planetary Invasion and creating uber transports; Troop Transports carry twice as many population, for a slightly smaller size per unit, so a hybrid cargo ship with two transports and 1 colonypod carries 1.25m people in a space of (IIRC) 50 - enough for a small engine or a better life support system, compared to 750m and no extra space in a standard cargo vessel. Plus if you run across noisy neighbors you can still drop in and and join the party - {G}.

Jonnan

Reporting in!

I actually did a much deeper analysis of this and wrote it down somewhere but I can't find it at the moment so we're just going to generalize this problem. 

The primary problem with sending out boatloads of 750M is you can't grow that fast (unless you're Breeder in which case you don't need 750M pop colony ships).  If you're looking at a 4 turn build for your ship anyway growth is almost irrelevant, and it is worth noting that since you're using a cargo hull anyway you may as well slap 3 colony modules in.  But at that point I have no idea how you're managing to even come even in the colony race, so I wish you luck.

Note: 4 turns is assuming any growth bonus whatsoever and also taking into consideration that unless you're Breeder or producing colony ships too slowly to keep up with the AI that it's unlikely your homeworld pop will actually grow (when accounting for those that are leaving via colony ships) during your initial colonization phase.  Otherwise, assume 5 turns.

However, in general it's better do either 500M pop ships or 250M pop ships and have a 750M pop/1B pop "ferry" running around between your colonies getting them up to "speed".  In this instance, 250M small/tinies generally work better, but 500M pop cargo hulls can be more worthwhile in some games, particularly if you don't take speed bonuses with customization points and/or don't rush to Impulse early (enough).

So basically if your ferry can't be built fast enough/doesn't have enough speed, you'd be somewhat better off with 500M pop cargo hulls (with an engine of course).  250m pop takes about 9-10 turns to grow to 500M pop with no growth bonuses; taking the 40% in customization points cuts it down to around 7 turns.  This is assuming a custom race, which all have growth factors of 0.04-the stock races have growth factors of anywhere from 0.03 to 0.07 (I believe the Torians are the 0.07, but I've forgotten).

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I had thrown that idea out as well, but it would seem to be more worthwhile to simply use pure transports as ferries as early on as you can get them; rather than using the 750M pop colony ship one could use a 1500M pop or even 3B pop transport ship as a ferry.

However if you combine it with early game starbase hopping to get to your opponent and shut them down on a huge/gigantic/immense map in a number of weeks, it's useful.

If you are having trouble with money earlier I would suggest doing what I like to call the "temple sprint".  You don't have to go straight there, but fairly early get the temple tech, and the one that follows it which gives you the "Shrine of Milthaldir" or something to that effect.  This temple gives a massive morale boost.  Get that sucker built on your homeworld pronto.

Why?

Because while all your other planets are tiny populations, your capital world should have a decent population by now, with poor morale as a result.   This temple will raise your overall moral at least 20%, allowing you to raise your taxes enough to break even.  Usually I try to get the temple up right as my initial cash pile runs out.  It usually gives me enough cash to break even, and soon after I start turning a profit (from banks, growing pop, etc).  If you still aren't making enough cash, grab ethics and build those Harmony Crystals.

Also:  Put max points into economy at the beginning of the game when you set up your race.  This gives you a 30% bonus, which should also help your money situation.

As a counter argument for Sole Soul:

A: I haven't noticed that 750m colony ships are that much slower to build than the 250m colonyships. If you're speeding up the 250m colonyship, then what you gain in smaller pods you're losing in other systems, plus wasting money building a Hull for each of them. You spend less per unit of population moved on a large colonizer.

B: Although you may be losing some time on building the colonies, you have to remember that until your population can produce 10bc/turn, you're operating at a net loss, and it takes that was *expensive* time you skipped, with each  colony costing you (IIRC) 10bc per turn versus a piddly 1bc production. Just thumbnailing it -250m people @ 5% growth per turn*2 (100% approval), 1.1^11 is 713m million people on week T+11.

The exact time frame that this is advantageous under is going to vary based on racial bonuses to population growth and how that changes the compound interest equation, the exact moment the population starts making a profit at taxlevel 'x%' (I'm not quite sure) and of course how big the difference in speed between a maxed out 250m pop colony ship and a 750mpop colonyship at a given distance (And under the 2003 "truth while talking out your arse act", I should note that buy +2 to speed now, which is *so* worth it with this strategy, since a 4-3 speed advantage still means that at ranges of <36 parsecs, I'm better off doing this), but all those only affect the equation parameters - for doing a close colony, bigger *is* always going to be better because of

C: Your people are happier and produce more tax revenue per capita on a lower population planet, which in turn means

C1: More econ per capita means each tax percentage is worth more;

C2: happier 'capitas' means you can tax them more without slowing down population growth;

C3: Happier 'capitas' are going at it like bunnies which in turn means you can shove more of them on other planets. Where y'know, you can tax them more.

Sure, I hate my citizens, but if they don't re-elect me, I'll lose my cushy job - {G}

That theory about not colonizing your second planet until late game? Well - My first colony ship goes out to find a really good planet out a ways because of the range bonus, but the second one bloody well colonizes mars, and before I do anything else, the third one just makes sure that Mars is profitable - especially if mars is only one square distant and you can move half your population there for free.

So it goes slower - just do what I do -  just use that extra time in cryostasis for the subconcious brainw . . . er, reminding your wonderful people of the glories of the Psilon way of life, um anyway, er, yeah that!

Jonnan, the vaguely benevolent dictator, when his meds are properly adjusted - {G}

Jonnan:

250M pop colony ship: 92BC (small hull, colony module, basic support)
750M pop colony ship: 205BC (cargo hull, 3 colony modules)

Your point on population per is valid, but not terribly relevant.  It only serves to reinforce the idea that ferries can be worthwhile-you can colonize two worlds for every one world by using the above 250M pop ship.

The main point is that your 250M pop shops are destroyed when a colony is created, while running 750M pop ferries around means your 200BC+ ships aren't.

Maybe it's just that I always run my colony rush at a loss, but I personally would prefer two planets @250M pop to one planet at 750M pop.

There's also the little quirk in DA where if you play Thalans and take full economic bonuses you can be breaking even on your 250M pop colonies at the beginning of the game. 

For what it's worth, I always colonize my second planet immediately.  I like having the extra research on turn 1-and generally I'll turn it into a survey ship builder if I can get to soil enhancement fast enough.

Yeah, but those two worlds are going to cost you (Spitballing here) about 3 months more in game time before they become economically viable to expand, resulting in time lost either

A: population stagnancy because your taxes have to stay pegged to the right hand column, or

B: production loss from breaking the deficit ceiling and shutting down production.

So you may have your eight colonies out in time frame X, but my four colonies in the same time are coming online as full fledged colonies three months sooner, which means that they are producing their own colonies in turn three months sooner. In the mean time, because I don't *have* to keep my taxes quite so high, my colonies get a little larger before leaving +100% population growth territory and +25% population growth territory, which in the long run means I have more people, the larger population base means I don't have to keep my taxes so high which means . . . rinse and repeat . . .

I'll admit I stumbled across this strategy in a buggy game where the economics went down the toilet badly (1.96 didn't install right or something IIRC - it was kind of fun in a masochistical sort of way after I decided to run with it - {G})- I did this because I *had* to, not because I'm a particularly good theoretician, but I don't see any reason the principle doesn't translate over perfectly well just because the economy isn't in slow death mode - {G}.

At any rate - *I* have certainly had fun with it, although it may be worth noting that, despite my experiences playing the buggy economy game I had for awhile, I typically only play tough, so I readily grant the possibility that your opinion is shaped by, y'know, being a better player than me - {G}.

Jonnan

You're assuming that I try to break even when colony rushing.  I don't bother.  I rush as fast as I can to expand as fast as I can-but in the most efficient way possible.  I spend a lot of money doing it, but I haven't run below -499BC in many, many months (real time-not game time).

I have, however, hit -495BC.  So it's been close, I guess.

I'm kicking out a colony ship a turn, Jonnan.  I'm only losing 100M pop/turn off my homeworld by doing so, without growth bonuses or Breeder.  How fast are you kicking out your 750M pop ships?  If you want to keep up with my colony rush simply in terms of population lost from the homeworld, you're looking at 3 turns per.  If it's 2 turns per, you're losing 225M pop/turn and can only do a homeworld-based colony rush 4/9ths as long as I can, or about 45%.  If you can get your new colonies up and running fast enough, that may not matter-but if you're launching ships from those colonies with 750M as well, it's going to be a while.

If I could build a 750M pop ship in a single turn, I might consider it.  A single turn 500M pop ship can almost be justified.  But getting these kinds of numbers in TA on the homeworld is just...ridiculous.

Speaking of which, thank you for reminding me, Jonnan-time to start a new thread.  You're welcome to visit. 

You may as well say well why not drop 2.5B on a planet when colonizing (to hit 75M hard cap base growth at 3%), or say 2B (more than 1875M)-the simple answer is that you can't fit that many on a ship.  Well, you can later, but that's beside the point-by that time you ought to be done colonizing.  The other simple answer is that you can't grow pop that fast.

Short answer - Ah, actually, yeah, I *have* dropped 2*1.25b (and larger) colony ships on a planet in the early-mid game range.

And that's what I don't think you're processing - I lose out in the faster landgrab at the very early stage, but by the time this process get's really rolling, yeah I *Can* easily keep that many colonists going out orbit from my multiple, moderately populated but fully armed and operational battle . . . er, planets.

Literally, the hard part is getting *enough* colonists moving out.

Lemme put it this way - The spamming colony theory basically depends on the premise that, if you have enough population on your 'core worlds' they can pay for your 'colony worlds' till they're up and running

And if you were getting an additional benefit from your core worlds from doing so, I would agree - but both the morale system and the economic/tax system is designed to give diminishing returns, dx/y is always getting smaller on taxes, and same with morale. Influence is linear, so it doesn't help you to have one world of 16billion anymore than having two worlds of eight billion or four worlds of four billion.

But four worlds of four billion *are* producing population faster and *are* more economical than any of the others - eight worlds of two billion even moreso. You don't *want* more population than needed to pay for your colony and four factories running @ 100%.

So yeah - this theory is "screw the core worlds, get the colony worlds up *fast*", so they can pay for themselves, then they *can* build their own colony ships, because if you're going to be out the 10bc/turn until the colony becomes self-sufficient *anyway*, you might as well just skip that part - as long as you can keep your coreworlds up enough for them to pay for themselves it's *silly* to concentrate your population there - you need just enough industry going to keep popping out colony ships efficiently - no more, because your core world are actually getting support from the colony world - it can afford to take twice as long, because it's not doing it by itself, it has three colonies up and running doing the same thing.

Jonnan