World generation and options

because options are the spice of life

from Elemental Forums

This is about the options for world generation that I, 'we' once other people voice input, think should be available.  I have a few suggestions/requests for how the worlds are handled in the game.

/* note: this is not a duplication of the world idea thread I saw floating around.  There is a discussion of world ideas, since we shouldn't limit ourselves to the light/dark of master of magic or surface/underground of HoMM 3, we should come up with new ideas.  Perhaps elemental themed worlds.  Perhaps the gates of hell and the kingdoms of heaven.  Ice worlds, or a world of nothing but floating continents that are connected by magical gateways (flying creatures would be able to fly between them).   Such ideas are great, but that is not upon what this thread is to be focused. */

First off:   custom creation (its been said, and it'll be said again)   There needs to be a world builder.  Something that lets you modify a world/worlds to to what you want.  I'm pretty sure this will be included, but I want to post it just in case.  The world creator I think should also have the random generator built into it or able to export to it.  This will let lazy people that just want a certain theme let a map generator do the hard part for them and then modify to create what they want.

2:  world numbers:   I'm about the biggest fan of Master of Magic around (and that is saying something considering the cult following for that game) but I do not think that we should be forced to use the multi-world system if we don't want.   We should have the option of playing on a single plane of existance if we so want and lock out the other plane.  truely epic games/tournements/or whatever should include both/all of the worlds, but for fun casual play options are the spice of life.

Along these lines, if lets say there are 5 worlds (life/light, dark/death, fire/hell/chaos, ice/sorcery, andy nature/foresty/earthy) and the player wants only 3 worlds in his game.  It should NOT be something like a check box system. He should be able to define each world on a per-world basis.  For example:  He should be able to play with 3 default light (arcana) worlds if he wants.  While this seems very simple in concept, I can see how it would be easily overlooked depending on how the world system is created.

3:  World ordering or levels (like, having the worlds layed down in an order.  I'll try to explain).  I think there should be a map of the planes.  I like the idea of several planes existing all in each other. (world 1 can reach worlds 2-5 with no problem.  all the planes are on "the same level") 
Alternatively, it would be cool to have a master plane that can reach all the others, but the others cannot reach each other.  (lets call world 1 'arcana".  Arcana can reach the world of fire, the world of ice, and the world of earth with no problem.  However, the world of fire cannot reach the world of ice without first going through the world of arcana.  They just arn't close to each other.  All the natural wizard towers or other gateways go to the arcana world and plane shift moves to the arcana world.)   

Lastly, straight up ordered worlds.   World 1 can reach world 2, but not 3.  World 3 can reach world 2 and 4, but not world 1 and 5.   My initial desire comes from a turn-based game called "cave wars" where there are many different levels but must be crossed in order.   The heaven and hell idea works well for this (heaven and hell can't touch directly, they must fight through earth) or other ragnarock style levels would still be cool. (old RPG, not to be confused with MMO)

This would of course require a UI feature to let players choose which world they plane shift into, and certain worlds just would be locked off from each other.

4:  Plane shifting: the option...  the ease of it should be editable.  I like playing games like heroes of might and magic 3 where you have set gateways or whatever that you use to pass between areas.  At the same time I like where once you reach a certain tier of gameplay you can pass between worlds with little trouble.  Certain limitations should be able to be set that make it harder/easier for other-worldly travel.  Teleporting is really powerful unless everybody can do it, and then its a very different game from when only the high level life-wizard can do it.  Different still is when there are a few select gateways that are used as bottle-necks and nothing short of dumping your economy into a pit will allow you to get around them.

I'm rambling a bit here I think, but the point is that I want choices.  I like the idea of everybody being able to plan shift in same games, only a few specilized or only in the end-game high-teir. 'plan shift" could be a universal spell that everybody gets.  Or it could be a really expensive 'super-weapon' like creation.   I think it should be an option.

This one might be tough to balance because I'm basically asking for you to create several balanced ways to handle it, but I'd like you to try (even if you note which are not balanced options).

/* note: I understand that some things suggested here might not work with the engine you are creating/have created.  They are only suggestions */

5:  Multi-sized worlds.  I don't just mean "large world" or "huge world", I mean litterally multiple sized.    Like world 1 is a small world.  World 2 is a huge world.  and world 3 is a normal sized world. 

The game would have to scale the system a little to figure out where plane shifting happens.  This would also create the effect where it would be easier to cross world 2 by shifting into world 1 walking 20 spaces and then shifting back (since that would be scalled to like 60 spaces in the "huge" map).   (I have more about this in the view options thead that should appear a few hours after this one.)

6:  cross-world worlds.  Multiple worlds are awesome, each with their different features. But wildly diverse worlds are awesome too.   So both ways should be available.  At map creation, it should be an option to have single theme per world (all fire and chaotic world) or multi-climate worlds.

do not have something to be "unique" to the dark world or "unique" to the light world, per se.   I mean that I am just as happy having them all one 1 world!  I've seen from screenshots terrain like heroes of might and magic where you have the evil lands that shift into happy land. This is great. A world that has hell on one side and heaven on the other side would be awesome.  It would still be one world though. 

I haven't figured out how the world generator UI would describe the different elements/climates/whatever that would be in each world but I figure with some brain storming somewhere here could.

8,747 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I would love for the different planes and underground to be layered on top of each other and accessed via a tab system and the access points (where applicable ) to be aligned. Think a GIS system layout.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok, I never liked the two layers/world approach in MoM, AoW, HoMM, etc.

They allways have one significant flaw, you can't have both of them on the minimap/main map/whatever, at once. Making the overview of your empire always much harder then it should be. I often lost a city or a battle because I forgot to check for an army underground in HoMM which isn't shown on the minimap.

On a design standpoint, that's imho a critical flaw (and a really annoying one imho).

CursorFX - Customize your Windows cursor
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

That should not be an issue with current PC duel core processor capability - especially for those of us with 64b systems and multi quad cores.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Spartan, reply 3
That should not be an issue with current PC duel core processor capability - especially for those of us with 64b systems and multi quad cores.

It's not an issue with cpu power, it's an issue with screen place.

You only can have so much at the screen at one time without it getting out of hand. And needing to split the screen for a 2 layer world isn't really a good option.

Imho it doesn't add enough gameplay for what it makes it worse in game usability.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I prefer one layer. Having secondary layer feels like playing two different games. 

 

Option would be nice, atleast.

 

If something has been learnt from the latest GC2 patches, a lot of customisation to games had to be put in during post-launch attention. That sort of thing would be great from the get go.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Vandenburg, reply 4
You only can have so much at the screen at one time without it getting out of hand. And needing to split the screen for a 2 layer world isn't really a good option.

Imho it doesn't add enough gameplay for what it makes it worse in game usability.

Ah. In my case I have a quad monitor system so never an issue. Nonetheless I don't see how a tab system or even a second map window on the main screen could be a great distraction. I can appreciate your sediment however.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Has it been announced that EWoM will have more then one 'Map' or 'Plane'?

Sammual 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

No, we're just throwing ideas around.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

quite right.  Just ideas.    I personally thing that it is something that we (as fans) should address though.  Master of Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic 3 both feature a multi-map feature.  Since this game borrows from both of these titles heavily (brad wardell said himself in an interview) The above ground/underground thing has been done many times where the multi-plane thing is not as common.  It is one of Master of Magic's many memorable features and I can find no excuse not to implement it in elemental.  Like if there is one thing other than "has spells" and "is turn based" that should be borrowed from master of magic, it should be this multi-world feature.

In my opinion.

 

Quoting Spartan, reply 1
I would love for the different planes and underground to be layered on top of each other and accessed via a tab system and the access points (where applicable ) to be aligned. Think a GIS system layout.

Quoting Vandenburg, reply 2
Ok, I never liked the two layers/world approach in MoM, AoW, HoMM, etc.

They allways have one significant flaw, you can't have both of them on the minimap/main map/whatever, at once. Making the overview of your empire always much harder then it should be. I often lost a city or a battle because I forgot to check for an army underground in HoMM which isn't shown on the minimap.

On a design standpoint, that's imho a critical flaw (and a really annoying one imho).

 

I'm about to post a UI idea thread that covers just this exact type of thing.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I am a bit ambivalent towards the multi-world approach - it gets difficult to follow and if the "different" worlds are not handled well they can be pretty tedious, like dungeons in HoMM where you have problems moving around ... One dual world set-up that I think worked quite well was in AoWSM - a cool thing here was that your units were much weaker in the shadow world so you had to prepare to be able to use it.

Should be optional in any case, even normal underground.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

The System in AoW:SM was good, but expandable. Underground and normal Map are a must have. Then you need a more then one "Dimension-Areas" like the shadow-world in AoW:SM. That was continents without water and no chance to go from one to another without using the normal map. One dimension can be a dimension of darkness, another a dimension of a god, then another for a other god and one dimension is not a dimension but only a representation of the kingdom of heaven in he sky. That will be really fantastic!

You can expand this system with dimensions which include another dimensions in a hierarchical system. So you can play a world of gods like in "Ragnarök (1991)"

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

This may come off as a heresey but I'm not too terribly wild about the whole 'layering' of worlds. I say this because it's been done and when it is done, it can be hit and miss. What I would like to see though would be specific areas where you could go underground, but not have tunnels dominate the entire planet (anyone every thought about how unstable cities would be if there was only a thing crust supporting them over a network of giant caverns? >_> )

So, let's say a set of mountains had some sort of cavern system underneath it that plans could use to get past the mountain range rather than trying to climb it. Even better, the players should be allowed to construct cities or fortresses in such places too.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

 

Quoting McCracken76, reply 12
This may come off as a heresey but I'm not too terribly wild about the whole 'layering' of worlds. I say this because it's been done and when it is done, it can be hit and miss. What I would like to see though would be specific areas where you could go underground, but not have tunnels dominate the entire planet (anyone every thought about how unstable cities would be if there was only a thing crust supporting them over a network of giant caverns? )

So, let's say a set of mountains had some sort of cavern system underneath it that plans could use to get past the mountain range rather than trying to climb it. Even better, the players should be allowed to construct cities or fortresses in such places too.

Well, I don't think the whole cavern thing would work per se...   I know many games use that, which is why the multi-dimensional thing is my perferred choice.   Switching between multiple planes of existance makes more sense then a network of caverns.  It would be cool if buildings looked different underground (the castle being a giant pillar from cieling to floor)

At the same time, the underground caverns is ok.  I mean, look at journey to the center of the earth.  Somehow they even had a sun or something underground enough that plants and dinosaurs could exist.  I don't think reality is an excuse NOT to have an underground layer, but I feel that the master of magic alternative is much much less overdone.   I want to see a sequal master of magic and I want to see a full 3D render of my avatar holding all the worlds I counquered... so I stress just how much I DO want the multi-world system, if nothing else.

The "layering" worlds, like I said, also could apply to something different.  Like the lower planes of existance not having direct access to the higher planes of existance.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd like the option for limited, but potentially very important underground realms a la lord of the rings, so you can try to take a scouting party (or an army if you feel like a huge battle) through it and gain a huge advantage in mobility, and if you can take it, a tremendously defensible point. I'm not so sure about the whole layering tons of worlds thing, but it sounds like it could be fun if done right. What about having the minimap have a small button to make objects in adjacent worlds show up so you can quickly check for enemies? Would that work? Another consideration is the role of the minimap with strategic zoom and whether it'll be nearly as important to a player. The main use my minimap gets in galciv 2 is telling where the next star to explore is, and that's it.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Realistically a system of caves and caverns isn't too practical (Mammoth Caves is the longest and largest set of caves on earth by several times, and having been through some of it, while it is long it isn't exactly big enough to fit much of a civilization in).

However that being said, having limited systems under mountains and certain sections of the map would be fun, especially if an effort was made to differentiate the cave system from the land above (something not done in AoW).  This is fantasy after all, and vast underground cave systems are a fantasy style setting.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

OK. Game issues aside for a moment, I would like to see SD do layering because to the best of my knowledge, every time layering has been done it has failed and in some cases to an epic degree. SD as a software company tries to be innovative with its products, so for it to do this and be able to do so successfully would be another nice plume in its hat in the annals of gaming history.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

My main reason for wanting layering is to be able to have a scenario (via mod, probably) with really dangerous planes where the NPCs take the gloves off but there are really nice rewards.  Otherworldly, insanely dangerous places.  Just perfect for that incredible stack-of-doom you've spent most of the game building.  Or for the titanic channeler.

 

But if there's no layering built into the base game, it can't be modded in.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

While I think having multiple layers on a map to consider adds a strategic element, it also makes the map very confusing and not fun (at least for me).  There are already a lot of strategic options to consider and making a swiss-cheese map that goes all over would make trying to create defenses really hard.  It's for this reason that Sins of a Solar Empire kept their star lanes concept.  They tried just making worlds open, but then nobody wanted to attack since everything was vulnerable.  I can't imagine playing Gal Civ 2 and having worm holes all over the place (yuck!).

That all being said, I'm not opposed to having another layer or layers in which to consider, but it really would have to be well implemented, add a nice level of strategy, and most of all- be fun!

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, most games that do have multiple layers do generally have options not to have them.  This is one thing that shouldn't be too hard to option in, but not have in all games as it is largely a map generation thing.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

In Master of Magic and cave wars it wasn't an option because you could move between worlds/layers at pretty much any time if you hade the right spells /equipment.  

In games with just an underground options like AoW and HoMM it was an option because you had certain locations that let you change.  I cannot even think of any other series that have multiple layer, so I wouldn't say 'most' but more like half.  (though, the first 2 series died right away so didn't make multiple installments which is why it probebly seems like more series have options)

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok, I probably should have said "most games that I have played that do have multiple layers do generally have options not to have them."  :blush: