Kyrgyzstan needs your Prayers!

I realize this could go under religion as well but this primarily is a political issue.

Ok AD.  Will do.  We have missionaries in other parts of the world and are seeing this as well.

I'm afraid we're going to see more and more of this kind of thing.  I'm actually thinking by the end all genuine Christians will be meeting underground like they did in the first Century.  Churches will not  totally close, giving a semblance of normality but will be filled with secular believers. 

Thanks KFC.  Sadly, the SDA are likely responsible for this bill coming into action. From my understanding they have forced their way in several times there even after being officially banned.  I suspect this is a way to just kind of eliminate such missionary work. 

According to the article though I don't agree that with their rationale that religious organizations aren't getting along.  Especially, in the capitol Bishkek.  It's about the same as we have here in the US however the only hostile areas are down south around Osh (southern KG) where it is heavily dealing with Islamic radicalism. 

I'm thinking that if this continues it'll either go underground or to Israel .

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My inlaws would probably be at that mark but they out grew the house that they were using for services and are in the process of trying to find a larger building.  Before they were denied access a building they had been renting they were pushing around 100 and showing signs of growth.

Guess all I can is hope and pray.

Why?  Are they that afraid of religion still?

I will pray for you and your family AD.  God speed to all of you.

I'm not what the actual issue is but I know the SDA's really messed things up a few years ago with the forceful ministry. 

Also Doc, keep in mind that their neighboring countries harbor Islamic Radicals and they may be thinking of trying to protect themselves from them as well?   I don't know a whole lot other than this has been a piece of legislation in the works for quite some time.  I'm praying that the Pres pulls his head out and vetos.

Kyrgyzstan is considered the most democratic country from the soviet block.  This in my opinion would be a major step towards what they were freed from in the early 90s. 

Thank you for your prayers Doc.  I'm feel somewhat bad living here in Colorado and my family dealing with this.  Well, maybe this will force them to move here?  I'd be cool with that.

UPDATE:

On Tuesday Jan 13 President Bakiyev signed the bill into law.  LINK

On a more positive note at this time they aren't forcing closures of registered organizations that were registered before this bill was signed.  I just don't know how much longer this will be the case.

Any report on the effects of this law now that a few months have passed?

Thank NC.  So far there have been a few congregations that have been closed.  My Father-in-Law's congregation have still been able to operate.  I know they are in persuit of some other small congregations to 'coop' with in order to meet the federal requirements. 

The state is basically using the KGB to attend different services and monitor.  If a congregation is deemed to be operating illegally they are quickly closed down.  Sadly, since I have been there a few times (and hopefully again in August) i've there is alot of corruption.  Heck we paid a bribe just to get my wife out of the country last time!

Thanks for asking.

Good luck to your family. Don't risk a trip if things appear to be worse, especially if your wife doesn't have US citizenship yet.

I am, as you probably figure, not convinced that making Jews into Christians is a good thing, but such a law can ultimately be used against everyone, so I will pray the congregation.

I know that Messianic (i.e. Christian) Jews are also praying for me and mine.

and non Jews (Christians) are as well Leauki. 

I recently heard that Jews are being really persecuted in Sweden with increasing velocity.  It's hard for Jews to even walk down the street with yarmulkes on for fear of violence.  Check out this very disturbing video. 

http://vodpod.com/watch/1428923-sweden-in-grip-of-islam

The whole world is in need of prayer right now and the Jews I'm afraid are going to bear most of the brunt as anti-semitism is increasing daily. 

Yes. I know. Thank you!

I wouldn't walk down the street in Ireland with a yarmulke either. It's too risky. The media keep telling us of "islamophobia" and how Muslims are being persecuted in the west but I have yet to see a Muslim who is afraid to be recognised as a Muslim here.

Note that the mostly left-wing idiots in Sweden are not necessarily Muslims, are most often not even immigrants, and have no experience at all with Jews or Israelis. As you know, those who don't know or have ever met Jews are often among the most fanatic anti-Semites.

I wouldn't travel to Sweden but I was not afraid to be identified as Jewish in northern Iraq!

Yes.

I keep wondering why no Muslim cleric calls for a jihad against the Sudanese government for enslaving Christians in the south and murdering hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the west of Sudan. Of course I'm not really wondering.

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/344720/The_Arab_Empire_and_Slavery

Thanks NC.  The previous issue was because her name on her passport didn't match her greencard (married name).  We previously checked with Gov't officals they said it won't be an issue (which after research is true). The way the whole situation played out was a dead give away of corruption.  There are camera's at the customs entry where you show them your paperwork that you are legal to leave the country and enter into the destination country.  There is only ONE place in the seating area that blocked the camera from seeing due to a very large screen TV.  The high ranking official sat in that location to finalize the cash deal with my wife (this time $150).  The original deal was done with the customs officer which my wife negotiated from 300 down to 150.  The High Ranker later became upset at the reduction and later threatened my wife that they wouldn't let her board the plane. 

We basically calculated our costs.  It would cost us around $100 to get the ticket changed and the other things we would have to do for her to meet their false requirements.  My wife was ready to stay if they forced the $300 issue. Some how during this whole thing I am surprised I didn't get thrown in jail.  I became pretty unruly!  Some of the other airport workers were trying to prevent me from speaking to my wife who was waiving me to come to her.  Hehe, yearh right like that was gonna happen!

Even more upset were my in-laws!  My father-in-law was red with fury when he found out what happened.  He knew something bad was happening when I side stepped an airport official and back through security to their daughter.

Anyway:

We are currently waiting for the KG Embassy here in the US to send us her revised passport with her married name. 

We can only hope that we won't have any issues when we go back in August (so we are planning).

Leauki, I think you have a misconception of what Messianic Jews are.  We still observe the Torah lifestyle and its feasts like practicing Jews.  I don't desire to get into a theological debate over this but wanted to clarify what Messianic Jews are.  I would argure they are closer to Judaism then they are "Christianity."

As you stated the problem with this is about Gov't control of what people can believe or not. 

Another Update:

I am hearing now that the KG Gov't is looking into abolishing the restriction on size of registered congregation (currently at min 200).  This would be a blessing if this regulation is done away with!  Thank you all for your prayers.

Do you have to be called Messianic Jews to do this?  I know Jews whom I consider Messianic Jews in that they are believing Jews in the Messiah that came.  But they do not observe the Torah lifestyle but the Christian one.  What do you call them? 

Two  men that I've mentioned here and are world reknown....Marvin Rosenthal and Gary Cohen.  To me they have helped me so much in the understanding of the Jewish faith outside of my book knowledge and the little experience I've collected along the way, even though I have Jewish blood in me. 

Marv is giving us a full presentation of the Sedar Meal next week to show us the symbolism behind it and how it looked forward to the cross.  His book "Feasts of the Lord" is excellent and very informative. 

Good news on the possible de-regulation. 

I know what Mesianic Jews are. But if you believe that Jesus was the Messias, you are Christians, even if you kept Jewish cultural customs.

I think we have four categories here:

1. Jews: ethnic Jews who believe in Judaism

2. Messianic Jews: ethnic Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah and in Judaism

3. Christian Jews: ethnic Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah and that Christianity replaced Judaism

4. Christians: non-Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah and that Christianity replaced Judaism (or did not)

The first three are Jews, the last three are Christians. The first two are cultural Jews, a group that also includes Jewish atheists.

I wouldt tweak this a bit Leauki. 

I would say, for me, and the "biblical" Christians (Jews or Gentiles) who study the scriptures that we wouldn't go so far as to say that Judaism was replaced but that Christianity was the new Covenant and an extension of Judaisim or the Old Covenant. 

For example,  David's covenant with God didn't displace Moses Covenant with God.  Moses covenant with God didn't displace Abraham's Covenant with God.  Abraham's covenant with God did not displace Noah's covenant with God...etc.  It's a progression.  God is moving forward thru time. 

I think the Jews that become Christians either call themselves Messianic Jews or Christian Jews basically saying they recognize that Jesus was the expected Messiah. 

A Christian is just a "Christ follower" whether they are Jew or Gentile.   So a Jew  who is  a Christ follower doesn't make him less Jewish.  I think that's what Paul was trying to get across to the Jewish Christians in the first century.  He said he was a Jew among Jews and had been a Pharisee of all Pharisees, well trained in the Jewish law and knew all the customs and traditions. 

That's why I added "or did not".

Ok. So there are both gentile and Jewish Christians who believe that Christianity replaced Judaism and there are both gentile and Jewish Christians who believe that Christianity added to Judaism but that Judaism continues to exist as a set of practices given to the Jewish people by G-d.

Yes, and I think the difference between Messianic Jews and Christian Jews is that Messianic Jews believe that their faith is a Jewish faith, whereas Christian Jews are integrated into non-Jewish Christian organisations.

And to make it more complex, there are Christ followers who believe Jesus was the Messiah and those who believe he was both the Messiah and the son of G-d (or G-d Himself or some combination of it). Among the latter you then have Uniterians and Trinitarians.

Agreed KFC, this is 'stacking' of covenents.  But Christianity

I can agree to these definitions.

taking Leauki's 4 definitions and put them on a line graph I would say KFC, you are between 2 and 3?

I would say so. 

hmmmm not sure AD......I guess I would define myself more as a Christian with some Jewish blood but I'm so mixed up it's hard to say what I am mostly.  Most people think I'm either Italian or Indian because I have olive skin color and dark hair.  I am both of those nationalities as well as French and English. 

Of course I don't like the world "replaced" nor do I think many Christians like me would either.  The Catholics like Lula would say so and anyone that has even the slightest anti-semitism running thru their veins.  But God never never intended to replace the Jews and you can see that from his covenant and conversations with Abraham. 

This is precisely why I would put you in between.  You don't believe in the replacement aspect and do look at the feasts (at least familiarized yourself).  But there are also some Christian aspects that you agree with as well (ie Sunday).

There is no in-between. She is either trying to be a practicing Jew or not.

Messianic Jews are, apparently, genetic* Jews, practicing Jews, but not believing Jews, because their faith is Christianity.

Christian Jews are genetic Jews, but not practicing or believing Jews.

As far as I know and if the line is through mothers, KFC is a "Christian Jew", i.e. a "Christian", where her Jewish nationality has no influence in her faith or practices. But she is not a "replacement" Christian who believes that G-d has abandoned genetic/practicing/believing Jews.

Jesus himself was, if he believed what later Christians said about him, a Messianic Jew, since he was a genetic and practicing Jew, but not a believing Jew any more. (Until he decided that he was the Messiah and/or son of G-d, he was also a believing Jew.)

(*"genetic" includes converts and Jewish descendants of converts)

I'll post an article soon with a table that differentiates between the Jewish people (Hebrew-speaking people from Canaan and their descendants and accepted), the Jewish religion (set of laws and rituals), and the Jewish faith (set of beliefs), and will also include Muslims and Zoroastrians plus a few different Christian sects if I can figure out the differences between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox in time.

(And the Ethiopian emperor will take the cake: He was a Christian, a descendant of King Salomon, not a Jew, and the Rastafarians think he was Jesus reborn and G-d personified which he himself disagreed with.)

I think the whole thing can be sorted according to prayer day:

Friday: Muhammed's followers, since Friday Jews and Christians could come and listen

Saturday: Jews, since Saturday is the 7th day

Sunday: Christians, since Sunday is the 1st day, except some sects that embrace Saturday instead

Messianic Jews follow a Saturday religion.

You can even sort countries according to their weekend definitions:

Thursday-Friday: Islamic countries with little or no Jewish influence

Friday-Saturday: Islamic and Jewish countries with both cultures present at some point

Saturday-Sunday: western (mostly Christian and Jewish influence) and secular (Turkey)

Friday only: Iran

Sunday only: old-style western (Christian influence only)