Idea Threshing: Persistence between Campaign missions

from Elemental Forums

Some devs mentioned this today on the irc chat, so I thought to discuss it here in more depth.  Not sure how to format it, but here goes.

Initial Problem: In a multi-mission campaign, how is the player's effort in an earlier mission reflected in a later mission?

Traditional Solution (in GC2, at least): no persistence of any in-game resource between missions, generally just story progression

Alternate Solution 1: have a sequence of missions take place on a single map, with the first mission only allowing access to a limited area, and expanding the accessible area with each mission, maintaining all player resources, infrastructure, and units between missions

positives:
- would provide a nice continuity between missions and avoid the feeling of "I'm starting all over. Again."
- the necessary architecture would provide cool features for modding

negatives:
- would make it difficult to balance subsequent missions due to the wide range of potential player power at the end of the previous missions
- would pull development time away from other features for something that wouldn't apply much to sandbox or normal multiplayer play

possible ways to deal with the balancing problem:
1. just let the players abuse the persistence if they choose to, the only thing lost is that they won't get as much challenge on subsequent missions which may be less fun for them
- con: may complicate "metaverse" stuff, if that matters
2. limit number of turns for each mission
- con: not fun for many players to feel "rushed"
3. scale the difficulty of subsequent missions according to player power
- con: not trivial to quantify player power
- con: requires more effort to build and test the subsequent scenarios at 3 or 4 different scaling levels rather than just one
- con: probably can't deal with a player that has a world-wrecker spell or some similarly unstoppable force
4. negate certain high level spells or resources in the next scenario
- con: not fun
- con: probably not sufficient
5. restrict technology development to a limited set for each mission, removing restrictions with each mission
- alternate: base restriction on total tech "points" to allow player some tradeoff choices on what they research
6. when the player reaches a certain level of power or tech progression or whatever, end the mission
- con: what if they haven't finished the objectives?
- con: not fun for many players who want to play at their leisure
- alternate: just say "ok, you can keep playing this map and blow it up, but you'll enter the next mission with this part of the map and you and all your armies exactly as they are at this moment"

Alternate Solution 2: 1 mission = 1 distinct map file (even if multiple files are maps of the same area), but player can carry over units, spells, techs, maybe even cities

con: still needs balancing, but can restrict what or how many of whatever carries over by count or some "point value"
con: not as much continuity, leaves player wondering where all those cities went and what they mean now

---

One idea would be to structure the campaign as a sequence of multi-mission maps, like 4 missions all on a single "air elemental plane" where the player learns a lot of air spells, then 4 missions all on a single "fire elemental plane" where the player semi-starts over with only some of the units from the previous plane and has to learn new magic; could wrap it up on a combination plane with allies and enemies from all previous planes.  Anyway, this combines strong persistence between missions on one plane with a weaker persistence between planes without ever totally starting over.

Anyway, whaddya'll think?  I'm completely insane, right?  Other ideas?

Thanks,
Keith

10,859 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

And why not a campaign that would always be on a single map? The campaign would be a "big" mission with lots of little missions, the more you advance, harder become the missions. Then you lose .. nothing. You're always on the same map. And to avoid the supreme commander syndrom (before each new mission you stock the best army possible then trigger the next plot) you can put a time limit to succeed a mission, and if it fails then you have another mission that would take into account that you failed.

For instance you start and you first mission is to know more about some kind of weird dragon. You search its lair but the beast has already been killed by another player. then you can't complete and you recieve another way to achieve you goal : more information on it (with, for instance, you research go only on thaht particular thing for 5 turns).

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Cheap easy way to keep persistence between missions;

1)  Your Score on the mission is very heavily based on how fast you finish it.

2)  The opponent's forces for each mission are not static, they get a force equal to what you bring into the mission from last mission.  (Or if you care about being fair to the player the opponent's forces are determined by how fast you finished the last mission.  More fair but a ballance nightmare)

--- OR ---

You can take X units with you from mission to mission and your Avatar's skills are capped at a certain level each mission.

Sammual

 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

What about keeping persistence between missions by allowing the opponent to keep their research (with a bonus to keep them evenish with the player) and the like and giving them an army based on the size of the player's force, but smaller and more advanced? For example, in the first mission, the best accessible metal to the player on the section of the map they can access is copper, so their army will be large, but armed only with copper gear with only copper working researched, while the computer also has tin, allowing bronze armed troops to counterbalance the player's superior size. A few deposits will be near the border, allowing a successful attack to jumpstart the player. This draws a fair bit on Sammual's second idea, but limits the tech progression through irrelevance, because the player has no need for any technology past a certain level because the resources to use that technology simply don't exist. This may feel a bit artificial, but will be much less so than a hard limit.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Just for idea mongering.  I'm pro-mission continuety.

I'm a completionist.  If there are side-quests or something I do them and won't let the story continue until I do.  I want to feel rewarded for it too.  I enjoy the richness such things bring the world, but I enjoy shiny swords or something even more.  That being said, if I go out of my way to complete a side quest, create a cool avatar hero, finish all my research or something similar, if it helps me down the road in a more physical way I am greatful as a player.

So I am in support for continuity.  I think things like level caps or set bonuses for xxx being completed are an easy way to reward extra play but keep balance.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Xthetenth - I like the idea of the mission progressing in terms of resources.  If you took this a step further and made access to the resource a requirement for researching the tech needed to use it you would not have to artificialy limit the players research.

 

Sammual

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top


5. restrict technology development to a limited set for each mission, removing restrictions with each mission
- alternate: base restriction on total tech "points" to allow player some tradeoff choices on what they research

 

I like this version the most -- especially the alternative.  Set a 'cap' for power -- just remember to let players be safe if they're under that cap!

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

First, regarding the concept of campaign continuity in general, I think it's a very good idea. I also think, given that Elemental appears to be based on the idea that you, the player, represent a single, persistent character in the world, that it will be absolutely essential never to take away learned spells or technology between missions. How can I, as a single ruler/character, suddenly forget what I just spent weeks learning? I know people who gave up on the GalCiv campaigns for exactly this reason and I think the problem would be even worse in the more personal setting of Elemental.

I'd point out that it wouldn't take much narrative sleight of hand to talk yourself into a more flexible position in terms of taking away units or structures, though: a cutscene showing your previous opponent's attempt at dying revenge by summoning a magic meteor to obliterate half your town or some mission-intro text explaining that some of your troops were lost fighting off a dragon raid between missions would let you ensure that players never begin a mission with too much power.


5. restrict technology development to a limited set for each mission, removing restrictions with each mission
- alternate: base restriction on total tech "points" to allow player some tradeoff choices on what they research

I, like Ron, like this approach, especially the alternate version. Depending on other game mechanics, it might also be a natural approach to preventing unit hoarding between missions: an omnipresent unit upkeep mechanic (either in terms of food or money) would work to prevent the accumulation of unnecessarily massive armies not only between but also during missions. Of course, that would have rather profound effects on much of the gameplay, so it might be a cure that is worse than the diseas.

- Ash