I guess it's a matter of perceived waste. I mean there's a certain amount of waste in any process that's unavoidable. In my estimation the amount that's wasted is within reasonable limits and so I have no problem with it. If in your estimation more is wasted than spent effectively then you'll be pissed.

I personally believe that there are more people legitimately helped than there are people that cheat the system and so I feel my taxes *do* provide a benefit to others and I don't begrudge that. But there's also a matter of feeling that I have enough left for myself. Like I said I can afford a roof over my head and food on my table and I can afford to buy a Chevy every 5 or 10 years or so for both me and my wife. If the amount of taxes taken didn't leave me enough to support me and mine then I would feel differently about it. But if by paying taxes I can't afford a new Jaguar every year then that's just too bad.

I don't feel any sympathy for someone making way more than any normal person needs to get by. Whether they pay 15% capital gains or 50% capital gains won't make the difference between putting a roof over their heads or food on their table. We're talking ostentatious consumption. Let them pay a 100% luxury tax on their new yacht or not buy their wife a diamond necklace this year. But I do feel bad for people that can't put food on their table and a roof over their head.

 

First, they didn't have the national one available at the time.

 

Now...talk about cherry picking..

No, not really. The fact that they're struggling for the most basic of necessities when others have so much that are luxuries by any stretch of the imagination is sufficient for me.

Creating jobs is admirable. Working hard is admirable. I’m sure you deserve every luxury that you have or ever will have. No one here doubts this. But on the other hand there’s no tax that will be levied that will stop you from completing your house, or stop you from being as conspicuous in your consumption as you wish. They only possible effect is that maybe (and only just maybe) it might take you just a little bit longer to save up for that yacht.

My point is that increasing taxes inconveniences many so that a tremendous difference can be made in the lives of a few that really need the help. This is what I don’t begrudge.

I asked this question before but no one hazarded as response. There’s an implicit assumption that prevades every political thread on this site and that is that if someone is poor it's because they're lazy, or stupid or more likely, both. Another common theme is the assumption that in some way or another it's a matter of choice if a person is poor. This is totally anathema to my own personal belief system based on 56 years of living and I just wonder how someone comes to believe this way. I guess this implies that you believe that if someone has *any* job even a minimum wage McJob that they’re not poor. In my experience that’s not the case, most poor are “working poor” that indeed work quite hard and yet get nowhere.

MF I'll agree with this in part, but I think your reasoning is to simplistic. People stay poor for many reasons. Some are stupid or at least feel they are not smart enough to do better for what ever reason. Some are afraid or too "comfortable" where their at to improve their skill set (I went to college myself at 42 years of age). Some people are afraid to move to where jobs are or live in a place where there is only one game in town. And finally there are poor people that are happy with their situation, maybe that's the way it's always been and seems normal. Some may not know what course of action to take. It goes on and on. Accumulating wealth takes time and a lot of work. If it were easy or a simple choice everyone would be wealthy.

I think you'd agree that pulling yourself up takes, courage, commitment, and a bit of effort on the persons part. Some folks just don't have these qualities for whatever reason and throwing money at them likely won't help either.

50-75 too (but only a plurality).

 

It's more than implicit, I think Brad explicitely stated that several places in other threads!

While I agree with some of your points (it's not always a matter of choice about whether you're poor), I disagree with how you categorise poor. If someone is earning $200k a year, to me that is rich, regardless of their wealth, because of the level of consumption that they can afford with such an income. You could go through life with almost no wealth, yet living in luxury, by spending all of a massive income every year. To me that is rich, not poor. If they then lost their job and had no income, then and only then would they become poor - up until that point they would still be rich to me.

 

In terms of helping the poor though, I do think it's important to look at why the person is poor. I'm quite happy with some of my taxes going to help people who are poor to afford basic necessities, but only if they are doing everything they can do to survive - so for example I wouldn't be happy with giving a heavy smoking alcoholic with a drug addiction money if the reason they're poor is because all their money goes on the aforementioned items. However I would be happy with giving a single parent money if they are caring after young children, or working part-time (once their children are at a school age) and not able to make ends meet. Similarly I'd be ok to some extent with the government giving money to people who are unemployed if they have no assets and can't survive without it, but only providing they are actively looking for a new job, and I'd want any support to be removed the moment they turn down a job offer. In other words, if you're working hard, I'd be ok with the government using taxes to ensure you can survive, but if you're being lazy or wasting your money, I wouldn't.

Also although I do think there is an issue with wealth being passed down (leading to someone who could be lazy and stupid earning far more than someone who isn't), against that you have the point that the money will have been earnt at some point by someone, who no doubt will have worked hard for it, and since it's their money, why can't they spend it as they wish (by say giving it to their children)?

You do have the issue though that policies which take from the rich and give to the poor are likely to have a negative impact on total income. You mentioned that an increase in tax wouldn't affect Brads spending plans (re say yaughts), but would simply delay when he could buy them, but they might well - an increase in taxes might make Brad decide to take a bit more time off as leisure (since it's less expensive than it was under the lower tax regime), and/or not invest in that risky project that would have been expected to be worthwhile before, but is no longer looking worth it, both of which would have negative impacts on employment, income, spending, etc.; Of course there is an argument that increasing taxes on some of the rich could lead to them working even more, but I'll save that for another day (since it's a bit more of a cornercase scenario)

(in response to "aren't you curious why they're poor?"

 

 

And this is precisely why I don't like the system where people who don't care why someone's poor gets to decide how much I pay to take care of them.

If you don't care why they're struggling, why don't you stand up and start giving out most of your income to them in charitable donations?

They definitely are in very poor neighborhoods; at early childhood they, except for the very gift, are not open to these choices. It's not a question of liberals feeling good but to pressure those in power to work positively in easing conditions in horrible locales. May I say?--more generous "community organizing."

You have a point and I have to agree. I said that I considered myself to be poor even with a $170K income on the basis that if I lost my job tomorrow and could never work again then I could survive for a few years but inevitably I would end up destitute. Your point is that at least while I'm making such a high income that I can't be considered poor and technically you're correct.

However I still prefer to consider myself poor because by doing so I don't waste my income in a life of conspicuous luxury that I really can't afford but instead save pretty much every penny that I can in the hope (and I have to stress that it's only a hope that is by no means guaranteed) that at some point before my working life is over that I will achieve financial independence. So although I could afford far better, I buy (for cash, paying interest is a sin) a new Chevy Impala (I believe Americans should buy American cars) for myself and my wife every ten years or so whether we really need it or not. I also don't own an LCD or plasma TV, the 15 year old CRT is sufficient for my needs, nor do I own a cell phone and I'm damn proud of it.

If I looked at my $170K income and said, gee I'm rich, then I'd be tempted to spend it. Income is not wealth nor is it financial security. The only thing that provides financial security is to have enough money so that you could live reasonably off the interest with enough cushion to allow you to continue to save at least minimally. Never touch the principle. Have you priced out nursing homes, long term care insurance or medical insurance lately? How about just the annual cost of life insurance or long term disability insurance for a 56 year old that has had a heart attack. If you have then you wouldn't be surprised how quickly a lifetime of earning can be dissipated. If you haven't then you probably should. It’s sobering, the last quote I got for LTD was $18K per year for a limited benefit, even making $170K per year that’s a bit beyond my means.

You forgot one more important step.

4. Never get old.

From the attitudes that I've seen expressed here I would have to assume that Social Security is viewed as big an "entitlement", if not bigger, than welfare. I hope that assumption isn't correct, but in any case the 70 year old widow trying to scrape by on Social Security isn't poor?

Many people finished high school, didn't take drugs and didn't have children before 21 but merely didn't earn enough throughout their life to have saved at least $1 million dollars of after tax savings so as to be able to support themselves on the $40K in interest the million would earn. $40K per year isn't much but it's enough to be reasonably comfortable baring an extended nursing home stay in many parts of the country. Clearly anyone that lived and earned their money in the Northeast or California or other high cost of living area of the country would be forced to move to a lower cost of living locale but that's a given.

So anyway with my PhD in Electrical Engineering from MIT and having been steadily employed for 29 years in what most would consider a highly paid job I'm about halfway to my goal of $1 million of after tax savings (actually my real goal is $2 million just to have a bit of a cushion) and assuming that I can continue to stay steadily employed for another ten years I have every reasonable expectation of reaching financial security. And although there are those that are better off than I am, there are *many* that aren't. I don't begrudge people who are better off than I am their riches but I do wonder that if I will probably only barely be able to make it to financial security then how many are there, only slightly less lucky than I, that won't ever be financially secure.

I really wonder how many folks that agree with the prevalent attitudes expressed here now will do so when it comes time for them to retire. It's easy to feel that you're invulnerable when you're young (or even just not yet old) and that you'll always be healthy, but if you haven't prepared for the time that you're not then you may easily find yourself as poor as those for which some here express so much hate.

You would think that many would understand this, but very few do.  That is why lottery winners end up in the dumps more often than not.

No, that is the ant and the grasshopper.  There are many ants out there, but more than enough grasshoppers.  That old cliche - "you dont plan to fail, you fail to plan" affects everyone if they do not heed it.

Show me that person who worked 50years that way. The sad fact is that the person does not exist.  It is a bad strawman.

I earned $1.62 when I first got a paycheck job.  I make more than that now.

If you'd bothered to read this and other threads on this topic, you'd know he has said repeatedly, 'No.'