Shadowhal

Join Date 04/2007

+24

manuals and games for windows

there are two questions I was wondering for a while now, so I thought maybe one of the devs here could enlighten me.

1) few games these days provide nice and thick manuals like we used to have them. but they are often enough as a pdf file on the disc. so the design and writing and other fixed costs in creating it can't really be an issue. alas, is prodcution of these things so expensive, I mean how much can it cost to produce a - say 80 page manual, if it is composed mainly of (admittedly high quality) paper and ink? true enough, it cuts right into profit, as those expenses are not thought to attract extra sales, but I for one still enjoy them.

2) uhm, in the beta phase I heard some things about standards for the games for windows programme and stuff. so, it is obviously at least a bit of an effort to get this logo. yet, what exact benefit is there in it? its not exactly like windows has the best reputation, so I wonder why I would go all the trouble to be associated with a product that ... enough customers are making fun of half the time? sure, it runs stuff, its widespread and co., but I don't think there is a huge "I love windows" fan club. at least I'd bet there are more stardock than ms fans.

thx for any answers, curiousity is a b.... (blessing )

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1) Printed manuals are fairly expensive I think, especially color ones. They use fancy paper and all that, and when you make something like half a million of them, even if it's $2 per (and it's probably higher than that), that's still a million bucks for them. I would guess that's part of the reason. The last few games I bought on disc (Space Siege, Far Cry 2, Fallout 3) came with very barebones manuals. Far Cry's is less than 20 pages I think. For that matter, all of them came in just the CD case basically, no fancy box. Space Siege didn't even have a case cover, it was just like a console game. I don't think FO3 did either, but FC2 did. It's not just the manuals that are getting scaled down With the state of manuals as they are now, I wouldn't mind at all if they weren't printed but instead we got a bigger PDF, like the manuals of old. I'd rather look at a 100 page pdf explaining how the game works and all the background story, etc than a 20 page printed one that just shows screenshots of the UI and the main menu and explains that to start a new game you should click the "New Game" menu option

2) As I recall kryo answering once, the GFW program guarantees better shelf placement in retailers, which would be pretty attractive for publishers

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1) you may be right. I'd have to check, but last I saw, standard paper cost about 3 bucks for 500 a4 pages, that is .60 for a 100 page manual. and if you calculate that higher quality paper is 2 - 3 times as expensive, plus the colours, 2$ might be a realistic estimation. not huge for the 45 total package, but enough if it cuts into profit and most people would probably want the money invested into game content rather than manual. still, I like them, especially if it has good story or background info in it.

2) it would make me wonder though how microsoft would have that kind of market power over retailers. windows sure is a big generator, but its bundled, so few people actually buy it seperately, at least I rarely saw so. office may give big sales. but microsoft having more market power than all those gaming companies ... in software retail. I'm not sold on that yet.

ps. you are really are here all the time, aren't you. I think you should get a new nickname. N.anny. or N.annatar. for helping everyone all the time.

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Well, the cost estimate was not of any knowledge I have about the actual process, it's just the basic economies of scale principle. It may be cheap to print a single manual (even 60 cents - 1 dollar), but when you're printing half a million to a million of them it adds up. I like manuals too, one of my favorite manuals was for Baldur's Gate 2. It was a thick, bound booklet.. never see those anymore. Like I said, I'd happily settle for a PDF of a good manual rather than a 20 page main menu/ui gallery

I dunno how MS makes the deal, maybe they just pay the retailers, who knows. But I'm pretty sure that that's what the GFW label does, because it's been brought up before.

I think you should get a new nickname. N.anny.

I object

I'm here all the time because work is lenient enough to allow it When I'm off work I'm not around as much, though I tend to check the forums before going to sleep or something.

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Retail prices for paper and ink are the wrong thing to look at. Print Shops buy in bulk, and those that print books buy in even larger bulk. As quantity goes up, costs go down.

Even high end software has been tranding away from printed manuals.

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And it is not just the cost of the paper.

It is the cost of printing and binding (and production).

Nothing wrong with a good PDF manual. And you can print it out yourself easily enough, after all, if you want a hard copy.

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I love the manual, that lovely new smell that im sure must be horrible chemicels - but its smells nice!

Anyway the manual is there for 'stupid' people. Remember most players of any mainstream game are NOT like me nor are they like most of you. They might not actualy have any clue when it comes to whats going on and having to find a .pdf on the DVD etc just makes it worse.

The logo is also there for that reason as well as others - it puts the logo on the box, anyone who has a PC but isn't 'in tha knae' will recongnise the win logo and feel safe and familiar. Its just another reason for a person in the shop to buy. Im pretty sure it also gives some relife to share holders that the game wasn't programmed buy 2 monkeys lol.

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Learn how to spell.

The logo is to show that the program has passed certain tests for compatibility.

And, "the manual is there for 'stupid' people"? "Remember most players of any mainstream game are NOT like me..."

Wow. What an ego you have.

You are not even smart or attentive enough to spell and punctuate correctly.

im, actualy, isn't 'in tha knae', recongnise, Its, Im, relife.

An average of one mistake for every sentence.

A clear case of the blind trying to lead the blind. Because if you can't even manage a single sentence without a mistake, well...

...that makes you rather stupid as well.

Maybe you need a manual.

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Learn how to read these -> ' <- they are important.

I used stupid with apostrophes as a joke to indicate the people who don't know what they are doing. You know, like the "for dummies" books you can buy? Spelling mistakes are not uncommon on the internet you know, now drop your I-Ego and get over it man.

(Just to point it out, 'in tha knae' is scottish accent, and again notice the punctuation for indication of the joke properties of the phrase...)

And just to further make sure I make myself clear this time, I have spent most of my life playing computer games - the majority of people have not - im a 'weirdo' and as such do not represent the mass market. I needed the manuals once you know, because I didn't know what I was doing I was 'stupid', I remember it. Now I rarely need them, but I still read them and smell them. Im sorry if my quick typing is causing you a problem but I tend to forget that other people on the internet can't understand me very well.

Just for you I even corrected some spelling mistakes!

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Well, I love having a nice, thick manual. And a hard copy beats a .pdf every time, IMO. (And no, I'm not 'stupid'. I just enjoy reading through them ). However, anything that adds to costs and potentially cuts into profits is going to be scrutinized very carefully. Manuals add costs in printing/publishiing but they also add to shipping. The heavier each individual unit becomes, the more it costs to ship. My guess is this is also a large factor in the elimintation of those big meaty manuals. But damn, I'd love to see games ship with them again. I'd be more than willing to pay a couple extra bucks per game to have them.

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Trouble is, you don't know until you've opened the box if there's a good manual. Reviewers never mention it, and it's hardly something that'd be advertised. So, it's hard to make a selling point of it.

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True, but if it were standard practice though, it wouldn't even need to be a selling point.

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it would be nice if reviews took that into account though. the last games I got all had pretty thorough manuals, gal civ 2, sins, witcher, civ 4 & 2nd addon. anyone remember the hw series' manuals, I really liked those too, also the info and description of ships or the history of races. that rocked.

and as a matter of fact: yes, I'd gladly pay a few extra bucks, if I got a detailed introduction to the races or just some fiction in the universe or whatever. at least so long as it is not totally bland and badly written.

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In the old days it was hard to get any information about the game WITHOUT the manual. I remember having my open at the computer to read what I needed to cast spells or whatever. Now everything should be avalible in game (including lore which often isn't).

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I remember the days when it went like this:

new full price game = chunky manual, maybe a poster and maybe even some little "gimick"
cheap budgets game = on-disc manual in cheap box

I would be disappointed with my budget game but accept it as the "price" of getting it cheap.

Now a few things have happened that have changed things:

games have, on the whole, got a lot shallower so the need for a manual has diminished
games can afford the space to include in-game help and more intuitive interfaces
downloadable games cant include physical manuals
the internet is available for additional help, lore, background, chat, etc.
I've got older and my house is so full of sh*t that another manual would cause spontaneous implosion

So, I'm kinda "happy with" the lack of manuals now.

The last game that I got that I really felt good about the packaging of was Gal Civ 2 in the metal box - nice!

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