Maximizing Creativity

Well, I hope no one knows, because I think that a hard answer to your question would take fun out of the game.

But I'm still interested in observations on the subject. I thought the ability was more likely to kick in when you were researching a tech that would take a long while. But if 1% on your research slider yields any progress at all and you never got a creativity-spawned tech with that setting, maybe the math is slipperier than I thought.

I tend to emphasize research and play long games, so my per-turn RP output can get very high. I've noticed no difference in how often creativity kicks in for me (I pretty much always take it, and reasarch Thalan tech to boost it). If anything, it seems much less common in late game when I'm picking among a stack of 1-turn research projects with the occasional few-turn break to finish out a particular long tech branch.

My kinda vague, shooting from the hip observations (The Psilons use creativity, and last game I used the altaran tech tree *and* managed to steal another creativity tech from another race, so I got fairly high) is that it seems like it *might* be that the creativity is your 'total' chance of getting a break during the research cycle, but that that is multiplied by the ratio of your research investment/research requirements - IE, if your creativity is 50%, and you're investing 10rp a turn in a 500 rp project, you have a 1% chance per week of having a breakthrough - giving (1-((99/100)^50)) I think?) ~ a 39.5% chance of having a breakthrough at some point in the research process - but if you're slowing down your research and *hoping* for a breakthrough, you may get one well after you could have just researched it.

Note - if I'm right about this, then even a 100% creativity wouldn't guarantee a breakthrough - a two turn research cycle would give a 50% chance per turn chance, or only a 75% chance over the research cycle - at 50 weeks it would be down to ~63.6% I've sure there's a formula (Probably involving e) that would tell you how to maximize your chances at a given creativity percentage versus research points spent, but I haven't bothered with it.

I have noticed that there is a tendency to get creative towards the end of the cycle, so it *might* be based on remaining research points for a project, rather than total. Or I'm just completely off base and DevTeam could explain how wildy incoherent I am?

Jonnan

I am seeing the same thing--sort of.   I keep getting creativity early in the game, and after I complete researching a tech.   I get the following (partially researched) tech for free.   If your formula is correct, it may be that the best way is to massively over-research the little techs, like Xeno Communications, and there would be a good chance you get Interstellar Governments for free.   If this theory holds true, then if you had a 25% Creativity and put in 4X the needed research (i.e. you invest 400 rp to research a 100 rp tech), you would be guaranteed a free research of the following tech.

Are you sure that free tech is creativity kicking in or just that you had so little left on the previous tech that you had enough RP to get the next one in line?   By the time i get to research my ship defences I'm pretty far along with my research capability and some early defense techs are cheap, so I may get up to 3 techs in one turn.

When I'm nearing the end of a branch i adjust the slider so that it just changes to an exact week, so nothing is wasted. I'll click until it changes to 3 weeks and then click back one, so i know that I'm hitting the research time dead on. Of course the completeion of more lab type bldgs amy change it slightly.

Creativity is a really undefined, unpredictable, and random ability.

It's like asking a three year-old what he wants to be when he grows up.

There are the general, "I wanna be a fireman, policeman, docter, etc.", which come all too often.

But when you find a kid that tells you something "out of the ordinary", you know you have found something really special there.

I remember my buddy's son. He came up to me one day and said, "Uncle Phillip, why is it that grown-ups always ask us what we wanna be when we're grown-ups?", and I answered, "Why do you ask Michael?", and so he says, "Because my teacher was asking. And when I told her that 'I wanted to be a man who is not afraid to stand up to other men saying what he wants to say, a man who is not afraid to stand up for himself', she told me that it was the strangest thing she ever heard.", so I said, "There aren't many men like that in the world, the men who do stand up for themselves however, are the ones who end up being poor, with everyone thinking that they are crazy. But you must always remember to stand up for yourself no matter what. The men who can, are the best kind."

My friend's kid was 8 years old when he asked me this, and I will never forget that conversation for the rest of my life.

Point is, that Creativity is a very elusive, and unpredictable ability, and whenever I had it, it worked best while I was researching down any section of the Defense Tech Tree. I was once able to get Zero-Point armour in 30 turns that way during the begining stages of the game.

I also believe that Creativity would work best with: Luck (Coupled with Universalists may be magnificent), and the Research ability boosted up to max (40-50% research bonus, one of those two that is).

Hope this helps, have yet to try this out myself.

And yes I do realize that most of this post was way-off-toic.

I usually find creativity kicks in roughly twice a year with 50% luck and 25% creativity.  Now that it's been mentioned, I have noted what may be a disproportionate number of creativity procs on the turn I finish researching a tech, so I think there may be something to that.  It's the type of thing that is very difficult to empirically test.  Maybe someone can convince Loupdinour that it's more interesting than espionage is .

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

No need-I was itching for something new to test.

Military rating is giving me a headache. 

LOL!!!
I feel for you there mate.

And I am actually trying out what you told me to do SS on the "How to build a good Economic Planet" post.

My stats are...

All enemy races: Fools, Peaceful, and Very good economy as well, so that I can Tech Whore the Shit outta them!!!

Outstanding .  Thank you and I can't wait to see what you come up with!

No - I tend to build everything up *except* my military research during the game - unless I have [articularly unruly neighbors, I'd rather spend the points elsewhere - the faster I can get to discovery Spheres - the happier I am - {G}.

But getting a second tech via overproducing research seems to give the same kind of "You have researched" message that you normally get - the creativity message is a separate message.

And no - I had not thought about adjusting to a lower research production towards the end of the research production cycle, then amping it up. On the one hand - that's a horrid exploit. On the other - dang, it would definitely verify the formula is based on how many rp points you have remaining, and it would be *so* cool - {G}. I vaguely remember noticing that even a 'non-creative' race seems to actually have a base creativity of 10%, so if you can slow your research production to the that you can overcrank it by ten times in the last week, you *ought* to get a free tech at the end every time.

That's HORRIBLE - I gotta try it! - {G}

Jonnan

Interesting. I also favor non-military techs in my early game and work to build a huge research capacity as soon as I can. But for me, that often leads to exactly the 3-techs-at-once moment without any UI mention of creativity.

I don't know if I'd call it an exploit. I started learning about it because I noticed that some of the other civs produce very jerky-looking output on the Timeline tab while my play style seems to be about producing a classic logarithmic curve. But I'm not sure what you mean by your "rp points remaining" comment. Please elaborate.

My definition would be along the lines of "Something that works in game because of the manner in which it approximates a reality, but would not work in the reality the game is intending to approximate". A bug, but a bug with specific characteristics. Since the reality of the game is approximately is a technological progression from our own, and in this reality I never managed to convert the concept of my goofing off all semester and then cramming the night before my final into additional credit for the next course after the one I was taking, I feel I can sat with some justification that that theory doesn't work in reality - {G}.

As far as research point remaining - well, It's definitely *not* 10%/week - I've gotten my creativity too high for this to be likely, so I see two likely formulae for creativity.

Given technology x, which requires 10,000 rp (TotalRP) to research, it obviously starts with 10,000 rp (RemainingRP) on turn week T-10, Creativity of 10% (Cr), and 1,000 rp per week (rp/wk) at 30% research implementation, the question is what is your chance of getting a creativity bonus per week of research.

Which gives us two likely contenders:

Either

A.) it's (Cr/TotalRP) * (rp/week) - so (10%/10,000rp)(1,000/wk) where the 10,000 rp is constant, generating ten 1% chances over the research period of having a creative burst - if you do 0% research for two weeks, and 90% (3000rp) research the third week, you will have two weeks of 0% chance of creativity and one of 3% - barring vagaries of mathematics and the way the probabilities work out, you will still get ~ the same percentage chance of a creative moment finishing the project over the course of researching the technology.

*OR*

B.) it's not based in the total research requirement, but on the remaining research requirement - (Cr/RemainingRP) * (rp/week), in which case 1000 rp/week gives you a gradually increasing chance of creativity - 1% on the first week, 1 & 1/9 % week2, 1.25% with week 3, up to a 10% chance of a creativity bonus on week nine - which my tendency to get creativity bonuses in the later weeks of long projects rather than earlier might imply. (Alternatively, it may imply I haven't really been paying attention to when I get creative bursts but tend to notice when I go "Dang it - two more weeks and I'd have gotten the next tech too!" - i.e. selection bias.).

Which is fine too except that, if appears to be that if you get a creativity bonus on the last week, it's applied to the next technology in the series (or some pseudorandom choice among available technology at the end of a series) - *probably* a more expensive than the one you're currently researching.

Thus Tetley's observation: if you go nine weeks, until you have 1,000 rp left, *then* drop your research percentage to 27% for 900 rp, you will finish in 2 weeks rather than one, with the last week setting your RemainingRP to 100rp; Then you go back up to 30% research again for 1,000rp

and *now* we get -

(10%/100rp)(1000rp/week)=100%/week chance of creativity bonus - and that bonus applies to the *next* tech, not the one you're on.

And *that* is definitely an exploit. Or else I should have been cramming for exams in college a lot more than I ever did and using that creativity bonus - I could been through college in *half* the time, easy - {G}.

Jonnan

What I think he means, is that let's say you were researching (or are researching) trade centers, and it's gonna take you one week to finish (or something close to that). It is putting (let's say) all your one hundred research points into that tech, when you infact only need five. The rest of those points are litterally gonna jump over and start researching banking centers the same turn, which (let's say) requires nintey-five research points. It'll also finish researching that the same turn. So it's like having two things being researched at once. At least that's what I think Jonnan means.

And if this is true, then the times when I've had Creativity as an ability, it never worked (that is, if the message that notifies you that you've been creative, is not the one that shows you your robot whenever you finish researching a tech). If this is so, having creativity is worthless.

But then again, I only have DL and DA (non-updated versions) . It may be different in TA, but then again, I wouldn't know, I don't have it.

DAMN IT JONNAN!!!

YOU POSTED JUST BEFORE I DID!!!

JERK!!!

(Just Kidding)

(Nice Math by the way!!!   I'm not THAT good at math!!! )

Just for the record, EF, Creativity was changed in Twilight to finish a tech by chance, whereas in DA/DL it simply adds a small percentage of RP per turn.

I still plan to look into this, but I've been preoccupied with other things.

Since this is the case, creativity always "works" in DL/DA, but in TA only has a chance to "work".

My leaning is that it's in between A) and B ).   As if, the chance of getting Creativity is based on the total rp of the PRESENT tech, but if you complete that tech and starton the next one the same turn, the Creativity bonus will give you the NEXT tech.   Which usually is much more expensive.

Say, for example--and this has happened in a real game--I was researching Habitat.   Habitat is 1500rp.  I tune my slider to research 1000rp/turn.   The first turn, my Creativity chance is (theoretically):

       2/3 * 25% * x

where:   2/3 = 1000rp/1500rp, 25% is my Creativity, and x is some unknown factor.

So if I get lucky, Creativity researches the remaining 1/3 of Habitat for me.  Fair enough.  But let's say it doesn't.  I leave my slider at 1000rp/turn, and hit the Turn button.   This time, Creativity chance is, _AGAIN_,  2/3 * 25% * x.    Same chance as before.   I sunk the same amount of rp into it, and I was researching the same tech.   But this time, if I do get the Creativity bonus, it will give me TERRAFORMING.   This is because I just completed Habitat and sunk 500rp into Terraforming.   That's a 2500rp creativity bonus!!

Like I said, this incident happened in a real game.   But I don't know if the calculations I did are the reason why.

I suspect you're pretty close. I don't even think there's an 'x' factor - I need to try it and see, but I'll bet my next Lucky Ranger if you know the rp's close enough you can guarantee a creativity bonus by lowering your rp to 'two weeks' on your last week, then shooting it back up on the last week. I've watched too many creativity jumps when you start switching out to some unexplored tech tree from something that required high research - you can get one 'creative' jump per tech some days.

Jonnan

Aren't Lucky Rangers 5 years in now?  Or was it 3?

Those must be some long games. 

Lucky Rangers aren't that useful.

By the time I (or my enemies) get one, I'm building ships (and fleets) that can take it out in one hit.

They're only useful if you get one on your first year, then it's lucky.

If I get one sometime after that, I sell to the highest bidder, or I scrap it.

I sometimes even gift it, just to give the minors or a weak race a slight chance of winning their next space battle in a war.

Eitherway, I get rid of it. No point paying maintenance for something you don't need.

Well, I just about convinced myself that Tetley Tea's had revealed an exploit there just dyin' to be used, but it appears our beautiful theory has been killed by some unruly facts.

Neat Theory.

Doesn't Work

Anybody want a Lucky Ranger, slightly used, owned by a lil' old Drengin Grandma that just used it to oppress the Torians on Sundays? Only, ummm {Whaps Dashboard} 30,000 lightyears on the hyperdrive - Classic Corinthian leather interior?

Anyone?

Oh well, anyway I suspect our equation is (Cr%/TotalRP)*(RPproduction/Week), but given the fact that it's only a probabilty issue rather than the definite chance that (Cr%/RemainingRP)*(RPproduction/Week) would give us - well, I know *how* to prove it statistically, but I'm not nearly excited about it enough to go to the trouble required - unless somebody has a better experiment with which to prove or debunk the equation, which I'm certainly open to.

Jonnan

What do you mean long? Oh, you mean there are games *Besides* slowest tech levels and Gigantic maps? Really?

Why would you do that?

Although I still haven't had anything like the first DA game I won, where I got something like 20-30 Lucky/Precursor Rangers over the course of the game. I don't think I actually built any of my own military ships until I had Doom rays, and quit bothering with anything heavier after I realized my fighters were *more* than powerful enough to destroy entire enemy fleets - Max miniaturization, one Doom Ray and one each of the best Deflector, Armor, and missile defense, plus one engine.

Psilon Fighter pilots get *great* health insurance premiums - {G}.

Jonnan

When I questioned the "exploit" claim earlier, I thought Jonnan was just talking about the slider twiddle on the turn you finish researching a particular tech. A while ago, I started paying attention to the production boost you can get when you reduce research on final turns, so my Research timeline now has regular large dips. I don't always bother mid-branch, but I try never to waste those BC on the last node of a branch.

Re the whole notion of the thread title, it sounds like the thing is at least *mostly* random, and I like it that way. Real creativity seems also to have a major randomness aspect.

I don't think there's an exploit there in Creativity, but I do think Creativity can be maximized with some tweaking of the sliders.   It basically involves getting Creativity to research 90% of the follow-on tech for you. 

I like your sense of humour Jonnan.

And Swicord, the last section of your reply sounds like something Einstein and Mumble would say.