Fairness is a subjective word

I am very interested in Barack Obama's ideas about fairness. I would like to take a  moment and talk about the word fairness.

Fairness - The property of being fair

Basically, to be fair, like having the same amount of players on each team when playing a game or sport or to split earnings 50/50 for equal work. But lets take the concept of playing a sport and explorer fairness a bit further.

Let's take a basket ball game scenario. You gonna play a game of B-ball with some  friends but realize there are 9 players
. To be fair, everyone agrees to make 2 teams of 4. To take fairness one step further, rather than picking players possibly leaving out the one with the least skills, everyone put their names on pieces of paper and drew them from a hat, the one left would be referee till the next game. So I guess you can say fairness played nicely in this scenario. Or did it? You see, whether you believe is God or not, fairness is not fully part of our human nature. Some people are smarter than others, some are faster and others are better B-ball players. So when the 2 teams of 4
were formed, just how fair was it really when one of the teams possibly had the player with the least skills and maybe one of the teams had 2 really good players? The  Chicago Bulls won 6 Championships thanks to Michael Jordan. A look back at those seasons would make some believe those other teams never really stood a chance. But the truth is Michael Jordan brought out the best in those who wanted to beat him so bad and when he left, this spirit of competition continued as more and more players got better and better.

Another example would be the New York Yankees winning 26 championships because they basically got the best of the best. Was it fair for the New York Yankees to be able to afford the best players while other teams had to settle for the 1 or 2 players they were able to acquire? In the end each team that played against the Yankees or the Bulls had the same amount of players on the field or court.

It would seem fairness is only applicable when the one who wants it is the one on the losing end. But then one could also say that fairness could be interpreted as you get what you deserve because it's what you earned. Is it fair to award a child with an A if they got all the answers on a test correct? Is it fair to give a B or a C if they have a
few answers incorrect? One would have to accept that some kids are smarter than others and some work harder than others to get the best grades they are capable of getting. Is that fair? Absolutely. 

Even when one becomes part of the workforce, one does not get a job to earn the same amount of money for the rest of their lives. Companies usually award employees with raises and promotions based (usually) on performance (though it can't be denied that favoritism, ass-kissing and friendship often play a role in these awards, which is obviously not fair). Competition is the key word here. This country was founded on
the notion that everyone had the right and equal opportunity of reaching the American Dream (although one can not deny, yet again, that there was a time when this did not apply to all races but I like to believe we are almost past this ignorance) by what ever legal means they chose (farming, medical, athlete, acting, singing, etc). Now,
again, nature plays it's role and not everyone will reach this American Dream be it by physical or mental disabilities, laziness, ignorance, or bad luck. So is it fair for them to fail to acquire the American Dream? Criminals get punished for breaking laws, athletes have to settle for 2nd or 3rd place and those whose work performance was lower that others will get little or no raises. It's just the way life works. It's what is considered fair, unless you are on the losing end. Fairness becomes subjective when the one getting the raise things it fair since he earned it while the one who didn't get the raise things it's not fair because he should get it anyways, even if their performance was less
than satisfactory.

So we come to the main point of my article. Democrats believe in fairness. They believe rich people have too much money and that those who were not so fortunate to be rich deserve to have more, whether they earned it or not. Why do I say that? Because Obama clearly stated he plans on giving 95% of the workforce tax cuts, but with 1/3 of them not paying taxes at all, that could mean only 1 of 2 thing:

1) Either Obama is lying about giving tax cuts to 95% of working Americans since 1/3 does not pay taxes anyways.

or

2) A tax cute to people who don't pay taxes means a tax refund. In other words they get money they did not work for (since it's not part of their wages) from someone who did earn it but was forced to give it up thru higher taxes.

Obama's own words:

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everyone"
 
Even a child can understand that spreading the wealth means taking from one and give to another. Ask a child to spread the wealth of his toys and see how many will say "OK" once they understand their toys are no longer theirs.

I work very hard for my money and I accept my wages because I know I did not try hard enough to earn higher wages. But I am working on earning more money, not thru Gov't help and higher taxes, but thru education, working harder and improving my performance in order to earn raises and promotions or even finding a better paying job somewhere else.

Fairness is a subjective word,  the meaning depends on the persons perpective of what fairness is. Wendy's restaurant believes 5 pieces of chicken nuggets for $.99 is fair, Birger King believes 4 chicken tenders $1 is fair. McDonalds doesn't even have a $1 chicken nugget deal. What do you think?

Keep in mind, when heading to the voting stations this election year, educate yourself before you vote. make sure you understand the policies of you candidate. For you never know when their policies will make you feel good today and bad tomorrow. Fairness is not fair when someone believes they are getting the short end of the stick, you never know when that someone may be you.

So how can we vote for policies that imply fairness when the word fairness is a subjective word and not everyone will think these policies are fair? How is it being fair when one has to be forced to lose just to give the losers a chance toi win? Where is the incentive to improve when the road to victory is driven for you? Why even bother
to get an education when you will be a winner either way or a loser if you work too hard? Say what you want, this is what fairness thru Obama and the Democrats is all about.

Fairness is not fair when only 1 person gets to choose what is fair.
13,034 views 33 replies
Reply #1 Top

Your points are the reason that the founding fathers did not use the word in the founding documents.  Unfortuantely, the politicians of our time are not that wise.

Reply #2 Top

"fairness"
noun
The belief that other people work for free.

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/81628/The_American_Liberal_Dictionary

Reply #3 Top

Leauki,

:rofl: :rofl:

Never saw that article before. My fav one is this one:

"cease-fire agreement"
noun
This term means nothing at all.

I would actually say it means "time to reload and bring in extra ammunition while the enemy thinks we are waiting to see if diplomacy works".

Reply #4 Top

Your points are the reason that the founding fathers did not use the word in the founding documents.
End of quote

You know, I can't help but wonder since during these times Black people were slaves or did not have the same rights, can one truly ignore the posibility that a Black candidate may actually be trying to ignore or change the Constitution or it's meanings just because at one point the Constitution did not truly apply to Black people back then? When people like Rev Wright scream about how evil this country still is, what conclusion does one reach about how one gets rid of this evil, especially when they believe that everything this country stands for did not include Black people at one point in history? Because it is my understanding that, according to reports and comments I have heard and have an article about (link), some Black people don't feel so patriotic because of our history and how basically most of what this country was founded on did not include Black people even though today it includes everyone even illegals and insurgents captured in the battlefield.

Reply #5 Top

Unfortuantely, the politicians of our time are not that wise.
End of quote

Actually in the sense of trying to be elected for selfish reasons, I think politicians are much wiser when they take advantage that the average American is not History literate and politically literate so as to puersuade them into believing anything they say. Ignorant people are like children, they are easily fooled.

Reply #6 Top

I would actually say it means "time to reload and bring in extra ammunition while the enemy thinks we are waiting to see if diplomacy works".

End of quote

My article only refers to meanings I can deduce without knowing intent.

For example, the liberal media never cared for the fact that Sadddam broke a cease-fire when they declared that George Bush started a war.

 

Reply #7 Top

For example, the liberal media never cared for the fact that Sadddam broke a cease-fire when they declared that George Bush started a war.
End of quote

True. So one could say the concept was worth less than the ink used to sign it.

Reply #9 Top

You guys never quit.... do you?

grabbing at straws allover the place to find something to say?

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everyone"
End of quote

this is the last straw you found ... great ... let me ask you here:

who's wealth was he talking about with your Joe the plumber?

did anyone of the smart know-it-all ask this question?

if you listened to the conversation with your new-found-friend joe, you would realize it was our country's wealth. Now ,,,, is there something wrong with that? or is it only reserved for the previlaged? is the country's opportunities and resources are dedicated for the especial and the powerful?

i guess according to you .. it is ...

well ... that is not what most people think ....

Democrats believe in fairness. They believe rich people have too much money and that those who were not so fortunate to be rich deserve to have more, whether they earned it or not. Why do I say that? Because Obama clearly stated he plans on giving 95% of the workforce tax cuts, but with 1/3 of them not paying taxes at all, that could mean only 1 of 2 thing:
End of quote

so you took it on yourself to interpret what the democrats mean by "fairnes"????

where did you get the idea that Democrats believe that there is such a thing as "too much money"?

when are you going to stop the misinfromation campaign?

warren buffet IS a democrat ... bill gates is one and i can list many more .... so where did you get your self-made interpretion?

from the Joe-the-plumber campaign?   good for you.

now to your other points:

is there some working people who do not pay "taxes"?

you again pick your own definition? ... stop the deceiet ... we are in the dump because of it .. and you still didnt have enough?

SS taxes are not taxes? medicare taxes are not taxes?

isnt that the same Tax credit that McCain wants to give ALL working people instead of health insurance?

arnt the same people who pay no FED INCOME TAX getting that tax credit too?

so here again you pick and choose your logic? .... that is fairness as you define it?

working people "not paying taxes at all" .... where are they? in your imagination????

i guess when things go downhill around you as a result of the foolish policies ... you just have no choice but to grab at any straw you can and make a solid foundation for a new and improved decieving startegy !!!!

Reply #10 Top

You guys never quit.... do you?
End of quote

Maybe you can tell me why I should. Are you against people fighting for what they believe in? I can see why you defend Obama, it's easier to man-handle people who don't think and question others.

this is the last straw you found ... great ... let me ask you here:

who's wealth was he talking about with your Joe the plumber?

did anyone of the smart know-it-all ask this question?
End of quote

It doesn't take a genius to know Obama was refering to the 5% he was thinking about raising the taxes on. Please ThinkAloud, I expect better from you. I am truly starting to find this whole "Obama says this, but what he really meant was" game rather annoying. This whole "Obama has many meanings" game can't be good in my opinion for Obama. He is either honest in his commenst and I don't like what he has to say or his ability to express his opinions sucks which as  leader of this country would be a bad thing considering all the criticism Bush has taking for his fumbling of words.

if you listened to the conversation with your new-found-friend joe, you would realize it was our country's wealth. Now ,,,, is there something wrong with that? or is it only reserved for the previlaged? is the country's opportunities and resources are dedicated for the especial and the powerful?
End of quote

And guess who's holding this wealth you speak of? Last I heard merely 400 Americans hold most of the wealth of this country, or 5% as some here say. So tell me again, when talking about distributing the wealth, the countries wealth as you are calling it now, who's wealth exactly are we talking about? Cause it's not the bottom 38% who don't pay taxes cause you can't spead what you don't have, it's not the middle class cause they are getting tax cuts. You must think I'm stupid or was born yesterday. And this only leads me to believe Obama thinks that way. And if he wins, then he will have proven people really are that stupid.

so you took it on yourself to interpret what the democrats mean by "fairnes"????

where did you get the idea that Democrats believe that there is such a thing as "too much money"?

when are you going to stop the misinfromation campaign?
End of quote

You know what ThinkAloud? I am sorry but I am not here for BS from people like you. I am not gonna run across the internet to show what has been shown over and over by everyone just to prove you wrong. Your comments have showm me you lack any decent form of respectable debating skills and you are truly not worth arguing with here. I will refrain from banning you because unless you have been insulting and down right a pain in the ass, I won't take away your right to make a fool of yourself on my article with your nonsense comments about things that have been said and picked apart many times over.

Reply #11 Top

You guys never quit.... do you?
End of quote

Apparently neither do you - but at least Charles has something of substance to say.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting ThinkAloud, reply 9
You guys never quit.... do you?
End of ThinkAloud's quote

No, why should we ever give up when we don't want to?

Reply #13 Top

Apparently neither do you - but at least Charles has something of substance to say.
End of quote

What really bugs me about people like ThinkAloud is that he has the balls to make it seem as if I made up everything on this article. He dares to question what I said about fairness when Obama goes out there screaming to the world he wants to distribute the wealth for fairness reasons. Bills were passed to allow high risk people to acquire loans for houses they could not afford, all for fairness reasons. I need not to explain what Obama and the Democrats constantly scream on National TV.

Next we will hear Murtha didn't mean to say "racist" or "redneck" just like Biden didnt mean to call Obama out on his VP pick or when he said Obama will be tested in his first 6 months. Oh and Pelosi did not mean to give that speech when the bailout bill failed the first time either. All these Democrats either don't seem to know what the fuck they talking about or are too stupid to stop themselves from being honest. To follow in Hillary's footsteps, they were for the comments before they were against them.

Reply #14 Top

I think ThinkAloud illustrated an important difference in perception.  Those who talk of "fairness" in wealth don't see it as belonging to individuals.  They see it as belonging to the country, the government, or the world, depending on the context of the moment, rather than the descrete property of individuals.  If that were true, they would be right that it is unfair that only a few controll it.

As long as the difference in perception exists, discussions are useless.  It's like a blind man and a deaf man compairing blue to C sharp.

Reply #16 Top

Awww. more BS as usual!
End of quote

Can you be more specific? Short answers like these can be very confusing and misunderstood.

 

Reply #17 Top

They see it as belonging to the country, the government, or the world, depending on the context of the moment, rather than the descrete property of individuals.
End of quote

The irony is that this country was founded on the principals that people have the right to pursue happiness. That people had the right, ability and opportunities to reach the the American Dream. Since when did the American Dream become taking someone else Dream?

Reply #18 Top

As long as the difference in perception exists, discussions are useless.
End of quote

And here in lies the point of my article, how can anything be fair when even the meaning of the word fairness is not absolute?

Reply #19 Top

They see it as belonging to the country, the government, or the world, depending on the context of the moment, rather than the descrete property of individuals. If that were true, they would be right that it is unfair that only a few controll it.
End of quote

Disregarding the nonsense response to my comment, since they don't actually address the points i raised, here is a great comment that hits the matter at the core. Is it as CS says, 400 people "Own" the wealth in this country? and who said that? and who gave those people that great right? are they a new "Royalty", i thought this country is owned by all the people and MUST be governed by the people for ALL the people !!!!

as an example: all that oil being produced from public lands leased to oil companies. why are they getting the lion share of that oil's profits? isnt it originally owned by all of us? yes they developed it, they spent their capital on it .. and they should get good return on their investment. and they should be able to make as much money as they can ... with one little provision which they and the rest of the right forget... that is: the original owner should at least get an equal share of that resource's profits too and it should be used to benefit all the people.

the funny part of the right's philosophy is that if this was private ownership .. as in land or business they say the owner must get the lion share of the profit ... but when it comes to the "country's ownership" ... they reverse the principle and say the leasee should get the lion share of the profits!!!!!

it is always the double standard , the dishonesty and selfishness of the philosophy that is really at the heart of this whole split between Dems and Reps.

it sad really ... we can all be much better and wealthier if greed and selfishness is not holding the minds of some ...

the Really Old GOP knew better and was not that greedy or selfish. ... the current one? is hopeless and ... going down fast.

Reply #20 Top

And here in lies the point of my article, how can anything be fair when even the meaning of the word fairness is not absolute?
End of quote

only in your mind charles ... only in your mind. nothing is absolute in this life ... that doesnt mean you cant judge and do the "fair" thing in any situation. being not an absolute is a measure that helps peopl who are "fair-minded" do their best to reach the right judgement in different situations. the same act can be fair in one cas and not in another ....

it has been a talent of the reps lately that they confuse the issue in order to abort or distarct the issues and the discussions.

abortion? is an absolute... gun control .. again absolute ... no regulations .. an absolute ..... all because therre is no way, in their opinion (and you seem to be of that opinion), to be fair or reasonable since all these things are not defined in an absolut way !!!!

there is such a thing that is called "reasonable" ... you can share the country's wealth reasonably, regulate things reasonably, fight in a campaign reasonably, be selfish reasonably, be generous reasonably... it exists charles ... it exists .... you ought to try it sometime ... nothing is absolute ... nothing ... and if you looking for it in order to be fair ... you will never be .... ever, and this may be the only absolute in this life... really.

Reply #21 Top

Disregarding the nonsense response to my comment, since they don't actually address the points i raised,
End of quote

Now you know how I felt.

Is it as CS says, 400 people "Own" the wealth in this country?
End of quote

Keepin mind your own words, "in this country" not "from this country".

and who gave those people that great right?
End of quote

Hmmm, lets see, are you suggesting they somehow took this money from someone else? Are you saying this money was somewhere like a cave where the people of thisnation were saving it and they somehow waltzed in and took it? How ridiculous this question is. Since when is it a crime or a bad thing for some people to be good at making money? I didn't know there was some kind of limit as to how much one can make. Tell me ThinkAloud, why do some States have a lottery that grows by the millions every time no one wins it if people think no one should have that much money? Sounds like a lot of hypocritical people to decry how rich people should not have  so much money while buying that lottery ticket faithfully every week.

are they a new "Royalty"
End of quote

LOL, sounds like envy coming fromyour comments.

Reply #22 Top

as an example: all that oil being produced from public lands leased to oil companies. why are they getting the lion share of that oil's profits? isnt it originally owned by all of us? yes they developed it, they spent their capital on it .. and they should get good return on their investment. and they should be able to make as much money as they can ... with one little provision which they and the rest of the right forget... that is: the original owner should at least get an equal share of that resource's profits too and it should be used to benefit all the people.
End of quote

Yea, and I guess all the taxes they currently pay isnot enough, right? Tell me ThinkAloud, if you open a business and you rent a place to from where to run it and you make huge profits. Do you think the owner of the rental place deservesmore than the money you pay for your lease?

Reply #23 Top

Tell me ThinkAloud, if you open a business and you rent a place to from where to run it and you make huge profits. Do you think the owner of the rental place deservesmore than the money you pay for your lease?
End of quote

the discussion with you chales is useless i think. the land that has oil in it is just like renting a place to open ur busn? what can i say charles .... nothing i guess.... ok charles ... they just lease an emptyland ... like the one in Saudia arabia .. it is just empty desrt land ... isnt it?

and you expect me to answer that ....

the spin and the confusion is not working anymore buddy .... it is all more than obvious ... this is not a discussion ... it is just grabbing at straws ... .

sorry charles ... you all are correct. .... this mess that we are all in is all my fault and the fault of people like me.  you happy now?

i realy dont know how you guys sleep at night with clear concious. !!!!!

Reply #24 Top

 

the discussion with you chales is useless i think. the land that has oil in it is just like renting a place to open ur busn? what can i say charles .... nothing i guess.... ok charles ... they just lease an emptyland ... like the one in Saudia arabia .. it is just empty desrt land ... isnt it?
End of quote

The point, which you failed to miss, was that the people renting these lands made a deal when the lease was made. If the Gov't chose not to take a cut from the oil that is being extracted, refined and sold to gas station (which I doubt they are not) then it's the Gov't who messed up. But then I have doubts they don't benefit from it, what you fail to understand is what is the point of having land with all that oil under it if no one wants to extract it with the money out of their pocket because then they would have to give, apart from the lease payments, (say) 50% of the profits to the Gov't? Will the Gov't extract the oil themselves? They probably could, but it would seem it was more profitable to let someone else do it for their share, regardless of how small it is, is basically almost 100% profitable. Not only are they charging for the lease, but they get taxes and probably a cut. I can't be certain since I have not currently researched this, but I can check to see.

the spin and the confusion is not working anymore buddy .... it is all more than obvious ... this is not a discussion ... it is just grabbing at straws ... .

sorry charles ... you all are correct. .... this mess that we are all in is all my fault and the fault of people like me. you happy now?

i realy dont know how you guys sleep at night with clear concious. !!!!!
End of quote

Said the pot to the kettle.

Reply #25 Top

the discussion with you chales is useless i think. the land that has oil in it is just like renting a place to open ur busn? what can i say charles .... nothing i guess.... ok charles ... they just lease an emptyland ... like the one in Saudia arabia .. it is just empty desrt land ... isnt it?

End of quote

Seriously dude, it's becoming difficult to understand you. Can you please invest a minimum of time checking if what you typed are actual words forming something resembling sentences?