A common defense for the godly:

"Thou shalt not kill[murder?]"

Some think the rest of us are ignorant; incapable of checking their facts perhaps (afterall...their entire dogma is in one easy to acquire book or free to download.)

I shall now impeech your Bible with...your Bible.

In the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho, the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the Israelites, and say to them: When you cross over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their figured stones, destroy all their cast images, and demolish all their high places. You shall take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess (Num 33:50-53).

When the Lord your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and occupy, and he clears away many nations before you — the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations mightier and more numerous than you — and when the Lord your God gives them over to you and you defeat them, then you must utterly destroy them. Make no covenant with them and show them no mercy (Deut 7:1-2).

 

But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as the Lord your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the Lord your God (Deut 20:16-18).

Then, when the Israelites encountered the Canaanite king of Arad on the way to the promised land, they prayed to Yahweh and he “listened to the voice of Israel, and handed over the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their towns; so the place was called Hormah” (Num 21:1-3). The Israelites later killed off a few other towns on their journey, Moses later reporting, “we utterly destroyed them… in each city utterly destroying men, women, and children (Deut 3:6). And lets not get started with the infamous book of Job or Leviticus which provided the back bone for enforcing slavary, killing other non-Jews/Christians (and themselves at times) and the subjugation of woman.

...they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys (Josh 6:21).

 

I dare the godly to excuse these holy mandates without resorting to "If God deem so thus so it must be right." Indeed this question of is religion inherently ethical is long old with its apex arriving during the Enlightenment Era. The common consensus was that 'Holy' does not equal ethics, morality is innate in nature and that people obey for fear of punishment rather then loving authority.

I beseech the reasoned here, let no godly who qoute the Exodus to copy-right morality. Either the bible fueled by the minds of man or the mind of a divine; and ANY issue in it must be defended if its fans assert that it is the final and unalterable truth. To cherry-pick morals from holy books and to ignore the outdated morals by the religious further supports the notion that these books are indeed not inherently holy. They don't REALLY want to outlaw shrimp - do they?

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
⁹ These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
¹⁰ And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
¹¹ They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
¹² Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

And some are ignorant like you. I see you are well versed at quoting the bible, do you have a point? If so feel free to express it. Because nothing you have quoted is in conflict with the commandments. I would be happy to explain it to you off this thread in a private e-mail if you would like. This way you would not look so silly and ignorant. I have a feeling I know what you are getting at but you failed to make your point or even suggest you have a point based on what you quoted.

I have never understood how people on the religious extremist left feel that if they quote something everyone will see what they see, and when we don’t we are ignorant, stupid, mind numbed robots incapable of free or individual thought.

Then you will feel pleased to know that the one those people saw as their creator ordered them to make war on people that had offended him. This is why the mistranslation from murder to kill is a difficult one for you to grasp. You wish to use no religious rules and have them justify your beliefs about religion. If you believe in God then you do what God tells you to do. If you don’t then you are free to ignore what you will. These people were told to do something by God, after seeing him destroy the Egyptian army, the pillar of fire to guide them at night and the pillar of dust to guide them by day, the daily meals of bread provided for them where there was no grain to make bread are all things that man could not do on his own. Then this God person says I don’t like those people destroy them for me. Are you going to say no?

As to the loving authority, your parents told you to do or not do something and you disobeyed. They punished you. And you learned that life has consequences, you had free will to do as you pleased. The next time you are told to do or not do something you know you will be punished for disobedience. You still have free will to do as you please. This time you obey, do you obey out of fear of punishment? Yes. Do you still love your parents? Yes. What is hypocritical about that? God is a loving god, he can love you and punish you at the same time as your parents did.

Belief in this God person is a choice, no one can be made to love or follow the teachings of the one they call God. If your child misbehaves you have the right as the parent to kill that child according to the bible. By law you have to take the child to the town elders, explain how the child will not listen and obey. List the destructive things the child has done. If the elders agree the child is stoned to death. The best I can figure out from this is if you are so bad that your own parents want you dead then society needs to get rid of you. If you are envious of someone and you want them dead and kill them that is murder. You are out of control and you need to be put down. You seem to want it where God is love and all your faults are forgiven. You can have that but you have to accept the rules of the religion in order to get it. You want the perks but not the responsibilities.

Governor Palin is being attacked by ignorant people like you who have no idea of the requirements of her faith and use her faith for political gain. Yes, you have the ability to read the words of the bible but you fail to understand their meaning. You take what is written out of context and scream hypocrisy! When you don’t know what it is to be a Christian. Not your fault you have people like Jessie Jackson as your guide, hypocrites like him cause more harm than good.

Paladin77 #50

Paladin77, Paladin, Palidan,

This is dishing out moral relativism and I'm ringing up "No Sale".  

There is but one God and only 1 set of His holy laws...In the case of abortion it doesn't matter a wit, if it says thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not murder.....either way a helpless, most innocent child of God gets his life snuffed out and a nation that mocks God and His laws will reap the whirlwind.

That's what happens when we become so arrogant that we define life by how or if other organisms interact with us.  It really is a stupid way to decide if soemthing else is alive or not.

cedarbird posts:

Regarding human life in the womb and when it begins, SCIENCE on the topic of the human genome and human embryology has revealed human life begins at the moment of fecundation....at the moment the sperm and egg unite.  This proves human personhood begins at conception.  

This information should force society to look at what is happening when an abortionist goes to work.  Unborn babies do have rights. They are not simply things to be destroyed at the whim and will of others who are bigger, stronger and have power over them.

Absoolutely true.

Ever hear the saying those who govern the culture's language govern the culture or something like that? Ever since 1973, they've steadily been working to obfuscate the masses with their different linguisitc concoctions. Their semantics are why so many believe that killing an embryonic stem cell, or a zygote or a fetus is not really killing a live human  being, a person.

The fact that each and every one of us were in that stage of our life's development is never allowed to be brought up in public discourse.

All we hear from the pro-abortion crowd, media and educationalist's lexicon for killing is "abortion rights", the "right to choose" (choose what I ask), "reproductive rights", meanwhile they censure from public thought the most fundamental right of all..... the right to life.   

Yes, Cedarbird, you've got that one pegged.

Of course they are living cells, but their DNA identifies them as part of an organism, not an organism themselves.  The zygote inside a human mother has DNA which identifies it as an organism.

Don't you mean that once they unite the developmental process begins for a human being to emerge?  Sperm + Egg ≠ Human Being.  Those are just ingredients; the thing has to bake awhile

This isn't a human being, but it has potential...it's starting

It has amazed me how literally you discuss the concept of a human being, but when others get literal about nature running it's course and a mother having complete control over the development of her child, that just get's thrown out the window.  My point is that reality is not the same as morality, and just because you want all those "human beings" to live, that doesn't mean that all the rest of the mothers out there who think otherwise are evil.  I believe in taking responsibility for actions, and that means that people should face the inevitability of pregnancy, if they choose to have sex, by raising that child properly.  However, I also see the reality of the situation with the mother having her control.  We are intelligent enough beings (eh, not all humans unfortunately) to recognize the destruction in our actions by actually killing a potential person when aborting, but there are situations like incest and rape when a "mother" shouldn't be forced to be one just because we say she has to have a kid.