Rethinking my position on the election » Forum Post by Draginol

Strange.. I posted a long response to JillUser and it's not showing up. Is my post lost?

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Ah, there it is - it showed up on page 2.

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If your kid crapped in a toilet instead of his pants, would you post that on his resume for future jobs?

Ah, getting into Harvard is now as easy a feat as using the bathroom! Sweet, I *knew* I screwed something up on my college application - I should have submitted a Polaroid of me on the toilet.

Have you seen the latest list of "Success after Graduation" and where Harvard ranks on that list?

Harvard undergrad, or Harvard Law? Obama went to Harvard Law, which is one of the most prestigious law schools in the country. (Although I think Yale Law still ranks as #1.)

But regardless... I'm a Cornell grad, and I love nothing better than a solid round of Harvard-bashing, but I'm not sure what your statement has to do with anything. Are you arguing that Harvard is easy to get in to? Or that graduating magna at one of the top law schools in the country is no big deal? Or... what?

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

he does not mean that he wants a government bureaucrat scrutinizing everyone's health records.

That's what we'll get if we get the Dem's health care system.

imagine how many bright people would be excluded without it.

Imagine how many could miss out because of the color of their skin alone. That is a really weak argument. I agree that he is a great speaker...so what. I don't care about talk. I care about action.

baseless assertions that a minority could only have been admitted to an Ivy because of affirmative action, or that a female engineer could only have been promoted because she is a woman.

I would never do such a thing. I was a lone female in EE classes myself.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that he was admitted because of affirmative action? If not, then your statement is borderline racist (and that is being generous).

He himself has credited affirmative action for helping him along the way.

I have a question: what would it take for you to feel that he - or anyone, for that matter - has "accomplished something" as a community organizer?

Even one single example would help.

Are you serious? This has been demonstrated to be false. [url=http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/off_base_on_sex_ed.html]http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/off_base_on_sex_ed.html[/url]

I read it and have a difference of opinion obviously. I don't think there is such a thing as "age appropriate" sex ed for a 5yr old in public school. I don't trust the public schools to discuss such things with such young children. They can teach stranger danger, and they do, and that is certainly sufficient.

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Ah, getting into Harvard is now as easy a feat as using the bathroom! Sweet, I *knew* I screwed something up on my college application - I should have submitted a Polaroid of me on the toilet.

Sure is - just have connections. Do we really have to list the people who have graduated that Obama wants to be in the company of? After all, getting an education is not that hard. last I checked, over 270 million americans have done it or are doing it. And graduated College? Even if we go down to Harvard, that still leaves thousands. So the question then becomes - what makes him more qualified than any of the other graduates? We are not saying he is not qualified to graduate, but how is that an accomplishment?

Harvard undergrad, or Harvard Law? Obama went to Harvard Law, which is one of the most prestigious law schools in the country. (Although I think Yale Law still ranks as #1.)

Does it matter? Lookign at either, you see some great successes and some abysmal failures. Graduating shows you can learn. It does not show what you can do. And is not something that anyone with half a brain uses for a mid-level or high level executive position. They look at what you DID with that degree. So far, Obama is abysmal.

But regardless... I'm a Cornell grad

ANd therefore proof that politics trancends all else! Just dont let your alumni know. I wont tell.

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After all, getting an education is not that hard. last I checked, over 270 million americans have done it or are doing it. And graduated College? Even if we go down to Harvard, that still leaves thousands. So the question then becomes - what makes him more qualified than any of the other graduates? We are not saying he is not qualified to graduate, but how is that an accomplishment?

The argument was never "he went to college, so that makes him qualified". I argued that making it into *Harvard Law School*, one of the top law schools, in the country, and then graduating at the top of his class, is certainly a qualifying factor. Someone who spends that much time studying the law, and at that institution, is certainly more qualified than someone who has not. Furthermore, Obama took his law degree and went and taught Constitutional Law for 12 years.

Does it matter? ... Graduating shows you can learn. It does not show what you can do. And is not something that anyone with half a brain uses for a mid-level or high level executive position.

Actually, it *does* matter. There is a huge difference between majoring in Art History at your local state college and earning a JD from a top-tier law school. You can't seriously be lobbing the two together. Professional post-graduate degrees are not fluff "party school" affairs, especially not ones in law and medicine.

If you are choosing between two surgeons, I imagine you would take into account the fact that one graduated top of his class and the other squeaked by at the bottom. If you are choosing a President, whose sworn duty is to defend and execute the Constitution, how is a thorough grounding in the law *not* a qualification?

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I have a question: what would it take for you to feel that he - or anyone, for that matter - has "accomplished something" as a community organizer?

Even one single example would help.

This stuff is all readily available online. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama:

"Obama moved to Chicago to work as a community organizer for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.^[12]^[14] During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens."

"Obama directed Illinois's Project Vote from April to October 1992, a voter registration drive with a staff of 10 and 700 volunteers and which achieved its goal of registering 150,000 of 400,000 unregistered African-Americans in the state"

he does not mean that he wants a government bureaucrat scrutinizing everyone's health records.

That's what we'll get if we get the Dem's health care system.

[citation needed]

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

[citation needed]

I'm no longer interested in this conversation. You're for him, I'm not. Believe what you want and see what you want. I don't see McCain/Palin as more of the same and you probably do. I don't think we're doomed either way as some seem to think. I'm not jazzed about either option.

This stuff is all readily available online.

Yep. And I know how easy it is to get stuff on your wikipedia page. Do you have any examples of actual people coming forward to say he helped them? For that matter, if he's such a great guy, why don't we hear from old college buddies? All of his friends that he was friends with a "long time ago" he has disassociated himself with (like his Reverend who he once claimed was like a mentor and family member, Ayers, etc.).

If he's such a great guy and has done such great things, it sure seems there'd be a lot more evidence. There seems to be two Obamas, the one he claims to be and everyone wants to believe he is and the actual man.

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I'm no longer interested in this conversation. You're for him, I'm not. Believe what you want and see what you want.

Fair enough. It's too bad that reasonable people can't actually come to a consensus about facts, but instead have to leave things hanging out there as "beliefs".

I don't see McCain/Palin as more of the same and you probably do. I don't think we're doomed either way as some seem to think. I'm not jazzed about either option.

Actually, I felt this way in 2000, when most of the country seemed inclined to give George W. the benefit of the doubt. Boy was I proven wrong. I've since learned that there *is* a difference, and if I can't discern it, I need to read more and research harder.

I feel McCain/Palin is not going to be quite the same as a Bush presidency, because most of the population at this point is tired of hearing the same tired lines trotted out against the same old bogeymen whenever anyone criticizes the presidency, questions the administration's policies, or brings up pesky things like Constitutional rights and due process. What will be interesting, if McCain/Palin wins, is to see how they take the refined political propaganda machine of the GOP and tweak it up to the next level. They picked a winner with Palin, because she basically ensures a lock-hold on the evangelical fundamentalist base of the party. She can talk code to them, dropping lines that they can parse but which are entirely lost on the rest of the country, while McCain takes contrary positions to keep the moderates thinking that he's got their back. At the same time, they'll continue the same fundamental ideology of the current administration: pre-emptive wars we can ill afford, critical analysis as treason, science as heresy, and media as propaganda. Oh, and free reign for multinational corporations, until they need a bailout, at which point they just bust out the Fed credit card and print some more T-bills.

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

this *is* a government *of* the people, and we all have to do our part to make our democracy strong.

One of the biggest issues is what "our part" means and who gets to decide what's "fair". The government is supposed to be working "for" the people. I don't want a "leader" that will dictate to the people what temperature they can set the thermostat to, how we should inflate our tires, what kind of vehicle we can drive and what we can or can't eat.

I'm more interested in taking care of our own first before promising money to foreign countries that don't even like us. I'm for encouraging but not forcing people to take care of each other and fight for our country. I have found Obama far from inspiring on that respect.

Obama is NOT the person I've been waiting for.

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I argued that making it into *Harvard Law School*, one of the top law schools, in the country, and then graduating at the top of his class, is certainly a qualifying factor.

And as I said, no itis not. It just shows you can learn. What you do with it shows your accomplishments. Dont confuse the 2.

Actually, it *does* matter. There is a huge difference between majoring in Art History at your local state college and earning a JD from a top-tier law school. You can't seriously be lobbing the two together. Professional post-graduate degrees are not fluff "party school" affairs, especially not ones in law and medicine.

No, it only shows you can learn, not that you can do. As for the surgeon, Obama is no surgeon.

If you are choosing a President, whose sworn duty is to defend and execute the Constitution, how is a thorough grounding in the law *not* a qualification?

Then OBama is showing he did not learn anything. For what he did with his degree is comparable to the Liberal Art Major's question - "do you want fries with that?". Besides, you would think he would at least know the law. Apparently he does not.

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This stuff is all readily available online.[/quote]

Yep. And I know how easy it is to get stuff on your wikipedia page.

Have you tried to actually edit a wikipedia entry about anything of note? It ain't all that "easy" to get stuff passed the editors and the vetting process.

For that matter, if he's such a great guy, why don't we hear from old college buddies?

Actually, I've read a number of interviews with people that I respect who have met and spoken or advised Obama in some regard, and the reports are all quite positive. For instance, here is a Marc Andreesen blog post about some time he spent with Barack Obama: http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/an-hour-and-a-h.html

These are unlike the reports from, say, John McCain's naval academy buddies who remember him as a hot-tempered panty-chaser that scraped out of there at the very bottom of his class. Here, for instance, is a piece by a former academy buddy of his who also spent time as a POW with him in Vietnam, about why he won't be voting for McCain:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:qq-1iVKbZIIJ:www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html

(This is a google cached version because the original has been removed.)

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

critical analysis as treason, science as heresy, and media as propaganda

I'm sure you have a lot of "facts" to back that up with. Regarding the media, I certainly didn't see anyone foaming at the mouth about the Dems the way Keith Oberman did/does about McCain. The media is so incredibley left biased that I don't understand how any reasonable person could possibly deny it at this point.

It's too bad that reasonable people can't actually come to a consensus about facts

Facts about universal health care are readily available. Talk to anyone in any country that has universal health care about the bureaucracy that stands between them and life saving surgery.

We won't come to a consensus I'm sure. It is easy to see how you see things and I am sure I won't be able to change that after going back and forth. I'm merely a housewife with 3 young kids who does HR part time. My time might not sound too valuable to some but I feel I have very little of it and therefore am careful how I spend it. I simply don't see this discourse as a preferrable use of my time any longer.

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I'm more interested in taking care of our own first before promising money to foreign countries that don't even like us. I'm for encouraging but not forcing people to take care of each other and fight for our country.

then you need to vote democrat, as thoughout the years republicans are the ones who have scolded the dems for not spending enough on overseas spending. The democrats dont support our allies enough, they dont fight for central american countries enough, they dont put money into Israel enough, it goes on and on.

I don't want a "leader" that will dictate to the people what temperature they can set the thermostat to, how we should inflate our tires, what kind of vehicle we can drive and what we can or can't eat.

I dont think Obama has done this, nor would he but his job as a leader is to suggest and help move the country towards a better more energy independant future. All of those suggestions you listed help with conserving money and energy....hmmmm sounds like a terrible idea.

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Quoting Dr Guy,

I argued that making it into *Harvard Law School*, one of the top law schools, in the country, and then graduating at the top of his class, is certainly a qualifying factor.

And as I said, no itis not. It just shows you can learn. What you do with it shows your accomplishments. Dont confuse the 2.

I personally think that making editor or president of Harvard Law Review is an accomplishment, but let's go with your scheme. If anything that a person does while obtaining a university or graduate degree is not an accomplishment, then how about getting accepted as a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago, and teaching there for 12 years? Does that count? What about becoming US Senator, does that count? I mean, would you count Sarah Palin's election to the office of Mayor of Wasilla as an accomplishment? If so, then surely a seat in the US Senate is an accomplishment?

Actually, it *does* matter. There is a huge difference between majoring in Art History at your local state college and earning a JD from a top-tier law school. You can't seriously be lobbing the two together. Professional post-graduate degrees are not fluff "party school" affairs, especially not ones in law and medicine.

No, it only shows you can learn, not that you can do. As for the surgeon, Obama is no surgeon.

Um... nor was I claiming that he was. I'm saying that law school and medical school are both very difficult affairs, not "do you want fries with that" sort of deals. I have had many friends, who I hold in great esteem, go through both, and it was no picnic.

If you are choosing a President, whose sworn duty is to defend and execute the Constitution, how is a thorough grounding in the law *not* a qualification?

Then OBama is showing he did not learn anything. For what he did with his degree is comparable to the Liberal Art Major's question - "do you want fries with that?". Besides, you would think he would at least know the law. Apparently he does not.

I think this bit needs to be more coherent before I can respond to it. How exactly is Obama "showing he did not learn anything"?

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I don't want a "leader" that will dictate to the people what temperature they can set the thermostat to, how we should inflate our tires, what kind of vehicle we can drive and what we can or can't eat.

FYI, it was NASCAR's own recommendation to people to properly inflate their tires that prompted Obama's comment about proper tire inflation. The fact that the right-wing media ran with it is a whole 'nother story.

We won't come to a consensus I'm sure. It is easy to see how you see things and I am sure I won't be able to change that after going back and forth.

Actually, this is a fairly offensive charge to me, because I am always open to considering new facts and forming new analyses as a result of them. My personal views on politics have changed very much over time and are always evolving as I learn new things and gain new insights. I actually grew up in the Appalachian south and was a pretty staunch conservative until, well, I went to college and read more books. My parents fled communist China when I was young and we immigrated here under political asylum, so any claims that I advocate a "big brother" socialist government are pretty laughable.

I understand that you are done with this conversation, but I'm very curious as to what specifically in my writings thus far has convinced you that my outlook is set in stone.

I'm merely a housewife with 3 young kids who does HR part time. My time might not sound too valuable to some but I feel I have very little of it and therefore am careful how I spend it.

Jill, I appreciate that your time is precious and I thank you for your time. (I know how much work a single dog is, I can't imagine what 3 kids is like.) Unfortunately it seems to be that you have bought into the right-wing framing of Democrats as wanting Government to be the ultimate Boss of Everything, and so I suspect you are right that we won't come to a consensus in a reasonable amount of time.

As a parting message, I would encourage you to question if that framing really is true. That is how I ultimately broke out of my "staunch conservative" days - I realized that all these scary things I'd been told about liberals and Democrats were mostly hyperbole, and in fact some where outright lies. (For instance, you'd be surprise how many corporations actually *request* government regulation for liability purposes and to establish torts.) There are no simple truths in politics and no silver bullet for all of our problems, but believing an entire class of Americans to be wholy deluded, wholy misled, or wholy evil is certainly not a path to any solution.

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

All of those suggestions you listed help with conserving money and energy....hmmmm sounds like a terrible idea.

I'm all for conservation but not forced. If I can afford to pay my heating bills and the price of gas, afford to buy the food I want, then I should be able to consume as I like.

I dont think Obama has done this

He very literally has.

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He very literally has.

not dictated it

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

There are no simple truths in politics and no silver bullet for all of our problems, but believing an entire class of Americans to be wholy deluded, wholy misled, or wholy evil is certainly not a path to any solution.

You say this but say that I have "bought into" something. I understand from what you've told me that you were once misguided as I am and now you have been enlightened. If only I would open my mind and educate myself I would see things as you do. (I now have a glass of wine in me and am feeling sassy).

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JillUser

Join Date 11/2003

+18

not dictated it

He doesn't have the power to...yet.

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The argument was never "he went to college, so that makes him qualified". I argued that making it into *Harvard Law School*, one of the top law schools, in the country, and then graduating at the top of his class, is certainly a qualifying factor

To be President? Are you serious? Obama has a law degree, what does that have to do with being President of the United States? At best, having a law degree might help make the case for being a senator but for being an executive? No way.

Fair enough. It's too bad that reasonable people can't actually come to a consensus about facts, but instead have to leave things hanging out there as "beliefs".

Saying someone is qualified to be President because they went to harvard isn't fact, it's opinion.

Saying that Obama's "community organizing" days makes him qualified isn't fact, it's opinion.

Your problem is that you confuse opinions with facts.

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Have you tried to actually edit a wikipedia entry about anything of note? It ain't all that "easy" to get stuff passed the editors and the vetting process.

It is if you're a left-winger. The editors on Wikipedia are pretty far left. Take a look at the Palin wikipedia site and compare the two.

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There are no simple truths in politics and no silver bullet for all of our problems, but believing an entire class of Americans to be wholy deluded, wholy misled, or wholy evil is certainly not a path to any solution.

I agree with this sentiment. The problem is that it is pretty clear that the left is the one who thinks the right is stupid, evil, and incompetent.

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You say this but say that I have "bought into" something.

Yep - but I am very specifically addressing you, and am not making broad generalizations about a large swath of Americans. I know the term "bought in" is not a flattering one, but the thing that really got me was your comment that "the media is so incredibly left baised", etc. I actually sample a wide variety of news sources, from far left to far right, and I think the media basically plays to the flavor of the moment. (They tend to be more socially liberal but hawkish and fiscally conservative.) Thus, when I see someone declare that the media is far left and whatnot, my instinct is that they have been listening to too much flak from the other side.

In fact, I have to say that over the past 8 years at least, the media has been extremely complicent and almost criminally negligent in terms of reporting the abuses of power and excesses of the current administration - hardly the trademark of a media overrun by liberals.

I understand from what you've told me that you were once misguided as I am and now you have been enlightened. If only I would open my mind and educate myself I would see things as you do.

No, you *might* see things as I do. And I entirely leave open the possibility that if I were to open my mind and read more and educate myself, I might see things as you do.

(I now have a glass of wine in me and am feeling sassy).

OK, who's the wine-sipping elitist now?

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Quoting pwang,

comment 18

Not to be too harsh, but I bet Obama could school you any day in a debate on the Constitution, law, and American History.

Wow? Really? And you know this...how? While I haven't been to all "57 states" I would say I have a pretty good grasp on Constitutional law and American history.

Obama has, so far:

1. Graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law

2. Served as editor of the Harvard Law Review

3. Served as a community organizer in a downtrodden urban area, where he got first-hand experience with the severe crisis that is affecting cities nationwide (see this excellent essay by David Simon, writer and producer of The Wire, about "the two Americas": http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/06/wire)

4. Ran for an won a seat on the Senate

5. Endured and triumped in a long, bitter campaign against the legendary Clinton political machine (the one that conservatives were all warning us about and villifying during the 90s) while taking potshots from the GOP/RNC political engine.

And...to you this means he is qulaified to be President of the United States? Because from where I stand, there's an awful lot of people who fit that description.

I don't think I'm qualified to be President but let's take a comparison shot:

1) FOUNDED the premiere university literary magazien at Western Michigan University that last time I checked still exists. Wasn't just editor, started it from scratch.

2) Founded my own company on my own without any outside investors and turned it into a $20 million company that employs around 70 people today.

3) Founded numerous websites, including the one you are current writing on as well as put together the teams to help create and maintain the technology behind it.

I'm sorry if I don't sound impressed with running for office. To me, that strikes me as a glorified version of saying "he got hired at a job".

I doubt that any "middle manager at Circuit City or IBM" could do even a single one of the above. (Well, maybe they could be community organizers - America can always use more volunteers in her communities, helping after school programs and mentoring kids.)

Really? You think it's that competitive to run for state senate? Really? Is this something you really want to stand behind?

But how does any armchair politics afficionado have the chuztpah to claim that those are "no achievement"?

Well, first off, because getting hired for a job isn't an achievement any more than buying a hammer is building something.

Jobs he has had aren't achievements. They are, by definition, jobs he has had.

How many commenters here actually think they could *get into* Harvard Law?

I feel pretty confident I could. Not that it's relevant. I'm curious, what do you think is required to get into Harvard Law other than financial means, the right skin color, and decent grades?

How many people here think they can actually run for and win a seat on the US Senate? Anyone?

You mean as a minority Democrat from Illinois? Not terribly hard given the state of the senate? Do you really worship government power so much that you think running for office requires some sort of special talent?

Do you think Obama could start his own $20 million business producing something? Anyone?

If so, why are you piddling around on a web page? Go and run for office and change things up!

I would if I thougth the government had real power. The real power is in the private sector. In a world where the President of the United States can't fire a dozen or so attorneys without it being a major scandal, I think it's pretty clear where the power in this country rests.

I agree with Democrats on one thing - the power of the US rests with individuals and corpoations.

(The scientist Bill Foster did exactly that.)My point is that we expect some level of hyperbole in any political discussion, but this is just over the top.Oh, and my wife works at IBM, and I know all about the middle management there. I wouldn't trust those hacks to run a kid's lemonade stand.

Ah so by that line of reasoning, Michelle Obama is fully qualified to be President too. Sweet!

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