Reform Our Jails and do it NOW

I think I've read that the US passed China, last year, to claim the highest incarceration rate in the world. How depressing is that?

On the other hand, it looks like my homestate, California, is about to vote to weaken its three strikes law, which puts a tremendous number of people in prison -- for decades -- for minor nonviolent crimes.

think I've read that the US passed China, last year, to claim the highest incarceration rate in the world. How depressing is that? On the other hand, it looks like my homestate, California, is about to vote to weaken its three strikes law, which puts a tremendous number of people in prison -- for decades -- for minor nonviolent crimes.

Yeah, it is quite sad. The UK has only 75,000 inmates, and we 1/4 of the entire world's jailed population. Russia and China buth have about half our prison populations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jail

The reason why our jails are so crowded, I believe, is that there isn't a major deterent to crime. The death penalty is hardly used anymore, and I don't think jail is a good enough deterent to keep people from committing crimes.

Just a thought. You could shoot it down if you wanted, since you probably believe that the death penalty is "bad".

Peace,

Beebes

I believe that we should use death penalty more.

Killed someone? Death for ya.

Unredeemable rapist or sex offender? Death.

Drugs sold to kids? Death.

Some crimes could earn large amount of "work time" for the government, such as cleaning roads, washing paint off, etc. Some could be sent to farms to work for nothing but room and board, and food. Pretty major crimes could net a person years of work at farms, etc.

Med crimes could keep the 3 strikes and you're out law, but not to jail time, but lifetime of farm or very menial work.

Prisoners have a better life than many American children (or many of our soldiers for that matter). Hot, filling meals. Clean clothing. Soft place to rest their heads at night. Access to working plumbing. Shower everyday. Opportunity to earn a college degree. Recreation and social time. Family visitation. I could go on . . .

Prisoners have a better life than many American children (or many of our soldiers for that matter). Hot, filling meals. Clean clothing. Soft place to rest their heads at night. Access to working plumbing. Shower everyday. Opportunity to earn a college degree. Recreation and social time. Family visitation. I could go on . . .

About the college education, I'd much rather have an ex-con working in a trade such as construction or plumbing than robbing banks and stealing stuff out of poverty (I realize that not all crime is caused by poverty, but if someone can hold down a descent job, they are probably less likely to commit crimes). Just a thought.

About the college education, I'd much rather have an ex-con working in a trade such as construction or plumbing than robbing banks and stealing stuff out of poverty (I realize that not all crime is caused by poverty, but if someone can hold down a descent job, they are probably less likely to commit crimes). Just a thought.

While I agree that teaching prisoners a trade is a good idea, a free college education (I may be wrong on this, but it's my understanding that that is what is available to them) as a perk of prison seems a bit excessive.

Lame little related anecdote:

I come from a family of teachers, and my grandfather has taught math for many, many years. When he retired from public schools he began to substitute teach in at a local prison (he's the type that must be constantly working on something). He ended up teaching someone else's class for many weeks. He directed his teaching toward real life situations that the men in his class might encounter. One man, who was a self-employed roofer by trade, found that he had been figuring his costs wrong. Because of his bad math, he never made enough money to live on, and what better way to supplement a downward spiraling income than a life of crime?

I definitely agree that job training is beneficial. I just don't know that it is necessary to hand to criminals what law abiding Americans must toil and plan for (and sometimes never achieve).

Yeah, basically where I'm coming from is most of them (apart from mass murderers) are going to eventually come out (don't even get me started on capital punishment), and we don't want them coming out more insane and violent than when they got in, so we should do what we can in order to make them more productive members of society, instead of career criminals going back in every few months. I realize that there are always a few who are just too dangerous (like murderers and child molesters) and pretty much beyond hope, but we should do what we can to rehabilitate criminals and prevent them from commiting more crimes when we get out.

Prohibition on Drugs ended and reparations to victims of the crime from the criminals.

PLINKO

- Grim

I'd rather work on reforming prisons after the rest of society is fixed. We should free all prisoners guilty of victimless crimes though.

I'd rather work on reforming prisons after the rest of society is fixed.

Hell, I don't think that will get done until the late years of my lifetime and right now I am 23.

then allow these prisoners to be abused, raped and beaten by other prisoners.

As opposed to letting them beat, rape and abuse innocent civilians on the streets.

This would cut significantly our overcrowding of jails, and would put our citizens back on the street

Thereby giving them freedom to commit more crime.

number of black Americans in jail, which is racially higher than the number of whites. This is due to injustice of our police officers

That's one of the most insulting statements I have ever heard.  If there are more black people in jail, it's because they committed more crimes and got caught, not because some cop was prejudiced.  I'll be sure to pass that comment on to my husband and his colleagues (both military and civilian law enforcement) ...I'm sure they'll have something to say about it.

Finally, we should whip down on the prisoners and prevent them from misbehaving and abusing other prisoners. We need to let them know that kind of behavior is not acceptable and we need to place offenders in solitary confinement, limit their food or prevent them from having benefits given to other prisoners until they can control themselves

This tells me that you really have no idea what you're talking about.  That's standard procedure already in a lot of facilities. 

I don't know what you expect....we put people in jail because they can't behave themselves in 'normal' society. We surround them with like-minded people...do you think that they're going to sit around and have tea parties and etiquette lessons?

I see that the intention of my post was misunderstood. I am not saying that we should treat our prisoners better. I am saying we should treat them like citizens. I am not saying give them better food, give them better anything, just force them to behave. We owe prisoners safety from other prisoners.

About the college education, I'd much rather have an ex-con working in a trade such as construction or plumbing than robbing banks and stealing stuff out of poverty (I realize that not all crime is caused by poverty, but if someone can hold down a descent job, they are probably less likely to commit crimes). Just a thought.

While I agree they should be taught better, I don't want a conman buidling my house.

That's one of the most insulting statements I have ever heard. If there are more black people in jail, it's because they committed more crimes and got caught, not because some cop was prejudiced. I'll be sure to pass that comment on to my husband and his colleagues (both military and civilian law enforcement) ...I'm sure they'll have something to say about it.

You go ahead and do that, because I have had personal experience of the cops mistreating people. And I agree that the blacks get caught doing more crimes. Could it be that the white people just don't get caught?

I don't know what you expect....we put people in jail because they can't behave themselves in 'normal' society. We surround them with like-minded people...do you think that they're going to sit around and have tea parties and etiquette lessons?

I don't care if they have tea parties, but unless they want to end up without food for a day, and in solitary confinement, they will not rape another prisoner. If they do, they need to be charged with rape.

Thereby giving them freedom to commit more crime.

Does it hurt you if someone uses marijuana?

Reply #4 By: XX - 10/23/2004 12:06:54 AM I believe that we should use death penalty more. Killed someone? Death for ya. Unredeemable rapist or sex offender? Death. Drugs sold to kids? Death. Some crimes could earn large amount of "work time" for the government, such as cleaning roads, washing paint off, etc. Some could be sent to farms to work for nothing but room and board, and food. Pretty major crimes could net a person years of work at farms, etc. Med crimes could keep the 3 strikes and you're out law, but not to jail time, but lifetime of farm or very menial work.

Oh my god. Please tell me you are not a police officer. You want to kill people for commiting non-violent crimes. Shame on you.

This tells me that you really have no idea what you're talking about. That's standard procedure already in a lot of facilities.

Well they obviously aren't working, and they need to work so enforce the damn rules.

The reason why our jails are so crowded, I believe, is that there isn't a major deterent to crime. The death penalty is hardly used anymore, and I don't think jail is a good enough deterent to keep people from committing crimes. Just a thought. You could shoot it down if you wanted, since you probably believe that the death penalty is "bad". Peace, Beebes

I would rather die than go to jail for life to be raped and beaten and abused. Now, I have a moral problem with the death penalty but besides that it is just not cost effective. We might as well just lock them up for the rest of their life in solitary confinement with no parole.

Reply #14 By: sandy2 - 10/23/2004 2:17:54 PM Peace, Beebes I would rather die than go to jail for life to be raped and beaten and abused. Now, I have a moral problem with the death penalty but besides that it is just not cost effective. We might as well just lock them up for the rest of their life in solitary confinement with no parole.

You did real good until here. How can you say the death penalty is not cost effective? It costs a minimum of 21K per year per inmate to keep them locked up. Right now average time on deaath row is 17 years with all the appeals and such. That comes to about 357K per. Figure a 5K to finish the job. Now anybody that would get the death sentence would get life if we had no capital punishment. Average life term is roughly 20-25 years. Now the price goes up to 420K-525K. Now you do the rest of the math and show me just how it's not cost effective. And BTW do not try to figure in court costs as part of this. Inmates with life sentences spend about the same time in court as those with death sentences. The figures quoted above are the *cheapest* I could find and that was from Indiana. Everyones elses were higher.


Link

While I agree they should be taught better, I don't want a conman buidling my house.

Why release them if you don't want them in your own neighborhood?

You go ahead and do that, because I have had personal experience of the cops mistreating people. And I agree that the blacks get caught doing more crimes. Could it be that the white people just don't get caught?

I have some relatives that often had trouble with the law. They'd describe things as if they were the victim, but when listening to them, one couldn't help but think them as the instigators. Sure, there are bad cops, but there are also bad blacks.

I don't care if they have tea parties, but unless they want to end up without food for a day, and in solitary confinement, they will not rape another prisoner. If they do, they need to be charged with rape.

What will being charged with another rape charge do to somebody in there for life? As for withholding food from them, starving criminals sounds a bit inhumane.

I would rather die than go to jail for life to be raped and beaten and abused. Now, I have a moral problem with the death penalty but besides that it is just not cost effective. We might as well just lock them up for the rest of their life in solitary confinement with no parole.

Is it cost-effective to spend more money on enforcing rules in prison (as opposed to helping people that deserve help)?

don't care if they have tea parties, but unless they want to end up without food for a day, and in solitary confinement, they will not rape another prisoner. If they do, they need to be charged with rape.

C'mon now sandy, you should know that witholding food from a prisoner is classified as inhumane treatment.  The people in prison are still humans, not animals.  You cannot deprive them of nutrition.

As for charging a prisoner with rape...that's not going to have any effect on a person who's serving a life sentence.  They're not getting out, ever, so they just don't give a fuck.

Now let's talk about  your comment about cops mistreating people...I've heard that story too many times to count.  The funny thing is, it was coming from people who had been caught breaking the law and who were in the process of being arrested. 

 

C'mon now sandy, you should know that witholding food from a prisoner is classified as inhumane treatment. The people in prison are still humans, not animals. You cannot deprive them of nutrition. As for charging a prisoner with rape...that's not going to have any effect on a person who's serving a life sentence. They're not getting out, ever, so they just don't give a fuck. Now let's talk about your comment about cops mistreating people...I've heard that story too many times to count. The funny thing is, it was coming from people who had been caught breaking the law and who were in the process of being arrested.

I did not say starve the prisoners. And yet letting them get raped is not inhumane?

Killed someone? Death for ya. Unredeemable rapist or sex offender? Death. Drugs sold to kids? Death. Some crimes could earn large amount of "work time" for the government, such as cleaning roads, washing paint off, etc. Some could be sent to farms to work for nothing but room and board, and food. Pretty major crimes could net a person years of work at farms, etc. Med crimes could keep the 3 strikes and you're out law, but not to jail time, but lifetime of farm or very menial work. Oh my god. Please tell me you are not a police officer. You want to kill people for commiting non-violent crimes. Shame on you.

Killing someone isn't a violent crime? Rapist? While selling drugs to kids don't involve any violent crimes, kids may resort to violent crimes in order to pay for those drugs. They're kids after all. They are also scarred for life.

Rest is not related to death penalty at all.

I still wonder why we have lifers staying at prison. We are basically paying to keep them in a room forever with food, room and board ( building a prison is not free, ya know! ) all bills, etc for years and years.

Reply #19 By: XX - 10/23/2004 11:08:17 PM I still wonder why we have lifers staying at prison. We are basically paying to keep them in a room forever with food, room and board ( building a prison is not free, ya know! ) all bills, etc for years and years.

See responce #15.

What's really disturbing is that prosecutors are trying to keep current prisoners from having access to DNA tests, to determine whether these prisoners are actually guilty of the crimes for which they were incarcerated. How slimy is that? The problem is that most states promote prosecutors based on successful they are on getting guilty convinctions, with no disincentive for getting incorrect convinctions. And when prosecutors go into politics -- which they often do -- they don't want to have any mistakes on their record.

I simply can't see any justification for denying these prisoners access to DNA tests of their guilt.

Yeah, all those poor black people in prison are all innocent. We all know they didn't actually DO anything wrong. It's only the white criminals sitting in prisons that actually committed crimes, the black ones were arrested just because they are black. Everyone knows that, it SOOOO obvious.

Gimme a break already.

I would be very interested to know exactly how you would reform the system? Oh, I know, let's have one guard for every inmate, that way they can be watched constantly, 24 hours a day. Never mind there's no way to pay for it, I'm sure those guards would be willing to work fro free to protect those inmates.

The people you are talking about are the scum of society, locked up because they are either unwilling to behave like a responsible member of society, or they have little regard fro human life. Either way, you simply can't "make them behave". If you could they wouldn't be there in the first place.

Sure, it would be nice to make prison a nice safe place, so the criminals will know that if they commit a crime they'll have a nice safe place to live. Ever heard of a deterrent? Prison should be a place you don't want to go. Prison conditions now are so good criminals don't mind being locked up, in spite of the violent nature of their fellow inmates. Why the hell would we want to make it even less of a deterrent? May as well just not bother locking them up at all.

Hey! That's it! If you commit a crime, we will refuse to feed, clothe, and house you! Maybe that's it!

drmiler :

To say that the death penalty (in the United States) is cheaper than life in prison is simply absurd and ignorant.

Link

Link

And if you don't beleive those "partisan" organisation, here's a govermental report :

FEDERAL DEATH PENALTY CASES:
RECOMMENDATIONS CONCERNING
THE COST AND QUALITY OF
DEFENSE REPRESENTATION

Link

I did not say starve the prisoners.

No, you said:

they want to end up without food for a day, and in solitary confinement, they will not rape another prisoner.

Witholding food is considered inhumane treatment. 

As for getting raped being humane...you have to differentiate between what the prisoners do to each other and what the establishment does to the prisoners.  It would be the establishment that witheld the food, and they are not allowed to do that. 

 

Reply #24 By: J.E. - 10/24/2004 4:56:46 PM drmiler : To say that the death penalty (in the United States) is cheaper than life in prison is simply absurd and ignorant. Link Link And if you don't beleive those "partisan" organisation, here's a govermental report : FEDERAL DEATH PENALTY CASES: RECOMMENDATIONS CONCERNING THE COST AND QUALITY OF DEFENSE REPRESENTATION Link

I'll go along with the first 2 links but the last is irrelevant. The last deals with cost of defense representation not the cost of the death penalty versus life in prison.
And PLEASE do not *assume* that I am ignorant. Stupid means that your incapable of learning. Ignorant means that you just don't care to learn. And for your information I am far removed from both.

I've worked in a jail for nearly 11 YEARS. They got it pretty good from what I see, "3 hots and a cot" and free health care and medicine. Right now I got a guy who brutally raped a 16 year old girl who has no hair from her chemo treatments. His meds are free, hers are not. You need to come hang out with me for a while. As far as sympathy for these people is concerned, they can find it in the dictionary between shit and syphilis...