You had me at "Gamer's Rights"

And stardock's attitude is why I bought sins and demigod on faith. I usually never do it, but stardock has earned 50 dollars just for being awesome (and for it not being 50 dollars), and until I am truly unhappy with a game, I will keep preordering.

  Wel lyou know it does say "EXPECT" and "DEMAND" as qualifiers.

  Yeah I demand a refund if a game doesn't work on my computer, but I don't get it..

  Well actually, stardock does give refunds within 10 days or something.  But what if a patch breaks compatability and another patch isn't made to fix it?

  That said..  I did preorder within 2 hours of the preorder being availible many months back because it was Stardock and Scathis/GPG working on it as an indipendant publisher.  And I'm just as happy with Tyo taking over..  Stardock DOES follow everything on that list, even though they use the words "expect' and "demand".

  They also let games have time to get polished up pretty nicely, and usually have good post-release support.

They're running a political machine refund for anybody whose computer won't run it that shows they've got their money where their mouth is, which earned a lot of respect from me.

Yeah I know.. but any publisher can say it's great an agree to it and let gamers demand all they want and not get it.

Stardock does actually get them, but that doesn't make the wording anymore loopholey.

It's one thing to just say it, like in a forum or in a one off interview.  It's quite another to put it on the digital parchment and plaster it all over the internet.  The former can be played off as being misspoken.  The latter is a "if we don't uphold these rights (at least to the letter) then the flames of the internet won't even leave ashes" type of deal.

Innociv, if this was just something they said here, I'd have to agree with you, but the way they went about it, it may as well be contractual -- if not legally, at least financially.

I can't get my money back for Sins, I tried... guess the Bill of rights isn't retro active

I haven't seen any posts from you about getting a refund. On the contrary, you posted a number of times about game strategies, so I would tend to think the whole "doesn't work on my computer" is not so much an issue.

But if the game ran fine at the start and you've only had issues since one of the updates (and didn't post about them), have you contacted IC support about it?

Ohhh no it wasn't for "Doesn't work on my computer", it was for not what i expected, and was unable to positively influence.(in my opinion) It's once the game gets charged to your credit card during the beta your absolutley stuck with it. I'm hoping my Email got in early enough to cancel this time. but for Sins it wasn't fast enough.

hmmm, brn4meplz, sounds like you are actually subscribing to the Gamer's Bill of Entitlements:  http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/09/01/the-gamers-bill-of-e.html

Those are awesome. Thanks for the link.

Gamers shall have the right of the first night. Really? That's freakin' awesome! Now I just need an estate... 

Yay you didnt forget the cake!

MMmmmmmmmmmm

Yay inside jokes! Yeah, there are some gamers who act entitled to the entire world, and it's giving all the rest of us a bad name to the devs, and it's the cause of a lot of problems.

OK, I totally LOL'ed at the Gamers Bill of Entitlement!

But, I absolutely HAVE to agree with this closing comment: "Reward them, and you help transform Stardock's list from what it really is—conveniences marketed to gain a competitive advantage—into industry standards that few will dare not meet." Yes, Stardock/GPG has a TON of self-interest in their list, and no-one in either company is stupid enough to be blind to the marketing bonus this gives them. Doesn't matter to me, I'll reward them all the same. Here's to hoping that if enough of us do it that we'll then wake up one day to an industry that actually serves it's customers and not it's developers.

Remember kids: If you don't vote with your wallet, then STFU.

-Lazy

I understand that any purcahse made on my behalf is ultimately my responsibility. But the BS about rights to a completeled product. What defines complete? I'm sure GPG and THQ though Supcom was completel but the community didn't. I'm sure Ironclad and Stardock thought Sins was complete... They even held back one of the factions from the beta so there woudl be more content on actual release(not that it mattered because pre-orders were already charged and non refundable) and Advent was also the worst faction on release. It's those kinds of actions that made me cancel my pre-order for demigod. Like I said somewhere else, I hope demigod works out great, i'm just not gonna be one of the guys who jumps first and asks later.

It's only a marketing bonus when everyone knows about Stardock and Demigod.

They don't.  (Not that I don't wish a ton more people did, i'm just stating!)

Brn, yeah that point and the "update everything" point are two I have issues with. But you gotta admit their pro-gamer stance is a hell of a lot better than, oh let's say, Sony. True fact: Sony Hates Gamers. That's why I don't buy Sony products.

Innociv: Don't know about anyone else but I talked at least 4 people into buying Sins and there's at least a dozen at my work who know about Stardock just because of that game. Now that Demi's coming out I've been chatting with everyone about it, so they get another dose of Stardock. Preach to the unwashed, man!

Well yeah.. Most people hear about Stardock and their games from word of mouth.  I did with Sins.  I didn't know about Stardock before Sins.

That's what I was saying..

I wish the stance was more "Pro Pro-gamer" and not just pro gamer... did that make sens eto anyone but me?

Sins is a decent game(but coming from Moo/Moo2 maybe i was expecting too much) The game just plays like sex with a fat chick, 40 mins of time wasting for the final minute of selfish indulgence