Russian Invasion of Georgia; Not So Fast Redux

So am I right in thinking that you're saying if 2000 people died, the invasion was justified, but if 133 died it wasn't? By that reasoning, how many people would have needed to die in the attack on the World Trade Centres before the invasion of Afghanistan was/wasn't justified? If only 200 had been killed would the US have shrugged it's shoulders and decided not to invade? More interestingly, think about it in terms of the % of that countries civilians killed - if the rough estimates available are accurate and about 70k people were living in South Osseta, and 133 of these were killed, then thats ~0.2% of the population. The % of the US population that died in the attack on the world trade centres was ~0.001% (so 200 times more people proportionately died in South Osseta to use your own (likely underestated) figure). Or to put it yet another way, do you think that Britain (as a main ally of the US) would be justified in going to war with a country if that country attacked the US and killed 600,000 people? A poor comparison (since it'd probably be more likely to be the other way around, and the case of South Osseta isn't quite that simple anyway), but it hopefully helps illustrate the point.

I think that misses the point.  When have the Russians ever been believable?  The number is not the issue, it's that the Russkie's claimed that Georgia 'attacked' South Ossetia.  Sort of like the US Army attacking Arizona, I guess.  If it really was a matter of trying to eliminate a faction conducting ethnic cleansing, what business of Russia's is it?  Was there a sovereign government in South Ossetia that was being 'attacked' by Georgia?  Was there a mutual-defense treaty between South Ossetia and Russia that I don't know about?

I admit I don't know or understand all the details of what was going on in the runup to the Russian invasion, but if there was a problem with the Aryan Nation trying to wipe out Hispanics or African-Americans in Arizona, I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds got involved in some way.  I wouldn't want them shelling a neighborhood in Phoenix as part of that involvement, but if they did, would that justify Mexico invading the US?

-double post-

Indeed, the US had 241 Americans killed by a Hezbollah bombing in 1983, and we didn't send in our whole army in response. You're argument doesn't work, because there is no calculus for calculating degrees of morality. Americans are far more angry about the 4000 people killed in the World Trade Center than they are about the 6000 that have died fighting in Iraq.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/terrorism/a/me080214.htm

If the Georgians had indeed begun ethinc cleansing, it would be justified for Russia to enter South Osssetia and stop the slaughter, but go no further. There was no genocide, and the Russians even continued to invade beyond South Ossetia. Thus, they have no justification for the invasion of the Georgia.

Furthermore, the people in South Ossesita are not Russian, no more than the Georgians are Russians. Rather, Russia has consistantly attacked (and annexed) Georgia since the 1800s, and this attack is no different.

And not just Arizona but Texas, New Mexico & California?

As usual from Vietnam, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq we engage in ethnic culturest we know nothing about.

That is precisely my argument. Your argument was based around how the number was low hence there wasn't justification: "Do you believe the Russian invasion was justified by the death of 133 civilians?".

The same can be said of Japan as well.  Today we do, but in 1941, the fact we did not lead to a deadly miscalculation.

I truly think you missed the point. It is not the numbers of people killed it is the lies told to justify an invasion by Russia. They lied about the numbers thinking that it would give them reason to attack. All that was pointed out was that instead of 2000 people killed it was 133 so far. In telling the lie of 2000 they had no justification to invade. Russia invaded a nation, an act of war, and justified it by saying that 2000 Georgian citizens were killed by Georgians. This is like looking at crime stats and Canada invading Detroit because of the murder rate.

No, more was said:

A rhetorical question basically saying 'the invasion wasn't justified because only 133 people were killed.

Besides, your double standards are fairly laughable - you seem to take everything you hear from the Georgian side as fact, and everything from the Russian side as propaganda. The 133 figure is going to be an understatement of any casualties, even if the figure+source are themselves reliable. Furthermore you seem to think it's terrible that the Russians may have lied or overstated their case for going to war, but have no such condemnation for any of the US's lies in going to war with Iraq. Pretty well every country is going to lie or overstate their case for war - just go back to major conflicts in history and you can see it, e.g. WW1 you'd have fictitious stories of Germans committing terrible atrocities, making out the allies to be the heroes, and the Germans to be evil. Going further back and you'd usually have the rulers claiming that God is on their side, and if they are true believers then they should pick up a weapon and go and kill some people in a far off country, etc.

So yes, the Russians almost certainly won't be telling the whole truth all the time, but don't expect the Georgians to either! They both have an interest in making the other side out to be bad, so to ignore the fault of one side and only focus on the other is very naive.

This is not true no matter how you spin it. I watched former Ambassador Holbrook give his report live. That is not the Georgian side it is the view of a former diplomat, one that has no love for the current administration.

Russia has been using propaganda for the last 10 years to put people in place to begin the new Russia republics. They have openly murdered journalists and political enemies. This has all been documented in the world press. It was also documented in the world press that Russia has funded the people in Georgia and those people went on and ethnic cleansing campaign that ended with Georgia launching a military crack down on that area that was repelled by the Russian army. Part of this ethnic cleansing was witnessed by Ambassador Holbrook and reported live on television. So, no, I am not taking what the Georgian President said as fact without checking it out. Just like I am not dismissing what the Russians said as propaganda without checking it out.

I am sorry but this is again not true. I have yet to see a proven lie told by the American government. Can you provide some for me to check out, or are you going to say that some blogger said it so it must be true and leave it at that? You are not going to tell me how we blew up the WTC buildings are you? Or that famous lie about WMD? Those have been investigated in and out of government and no lies were found other than political opponents saying they were lies to gain political advantage. Like I said show me the lies and I will condemn them.